Dracos' 9th Ed tactica ... more salty musings ;)

[Dracos]

I have had great success this edition maxing out Assault or Rapid-fire Intercessors. The offensive stratagem support for those two units is crazy effective if it’s baked into your game plan.

 

Going first and Master of Ambushing the Assault Intercessors double fighting has wiped out maxed Deathguard and Necron Warrior units. They did next turn but it forces the opponent to really focus on that unit and keeps the midfield open for you other units. Turn two the regular Intercessors Step from the Shadows and unload a barrage of double shooting AP-2 firepower. With a little luck they get a charge off with the (pick your weapon) sergeant.

Edited January 5, 2022 by Dracos

[XeonDragon]

So that is the honour thy chapter and rapid fire stratagems? Pure RG or successor? I can see intercessors with bolter fusillades + whirlwind of rage or born heroes and WOR making that extra spicy :)

 

I have had great success this edition maxing out Assault or Rapid-fire Intercessors. The offensive stratagem support for those two units is crazy effective if it’s baked into your game plan.

Going first and Master of Ambushing the Assault Intercessors double fighting has wiped out maxed Deathguard and Necron Warrior units. They did next turn but it forces the opponent to really focus on that unit and keeps the midfield open for you other units. Turn two the regular Intercessors Step from the Shadows and unload a barrage of double shooting AP-2 firepower. With a little luck they get a charge off with the (pick your weapon) sergeant.

[Dracos]

The Warhawks are a successor chapter so yeah I usually go Bolter Fusillades and Whirlwind of Rage. Choice of Chapter Tactics has no effect on this particular subject however. That’s a matter of do I get my “rerolls” from … Chapter Tactics or HQ. This is about effective use of CP/Stratagems and unit choices.

 

Having a comparatively cheap unit / model that can double shoot or double fight and counts as ObSec so has to be killed by my opponent for multiple reasons, allows me to utilize the rest of my army knowing that at least for a turn, hopefully two a lot of resources will be devoted that direction.

 

I’m not suggesting they are throw away units … even though they kind of are … I’ll even throw Transhuman on them if I think the math is good (I’m a bit weird in that I think Transhuman is way overrated if used against S7 and less weapons … so it either needs to be a fair number of S8 of a lot of S5-7 attacks). Point is they’re ObSec and using Master of Ambush or SftS should get them lot of attention. Attention that suddenly isn’t on my Infiltrators/Incursors first turn.

 

There’s a whole other thing about going first and second but the basic premise is the same where action economy and movement are king and queen, Assault Intercessors and RF Intercessors are royalty.

[XeonDragon]

That is really interesting, thanks for sharing. I use a big blob of Aggressors or terminators (normal or relic) with MOA for a similar effect. My thinking was to NOT burn CP via transhuman and rely on the T5 on the Aggressors or 5++ on the terminators, but this idea with the double-fight has really intrigued me. I think I might have to math-hammer the comparative damage output of a fight-twice unit of assault intercessors vs existing MOA blob :)

 

Great point about efficiency and movement being king. That is what often drags me back to at least 1 unit of aggressors, as at least they can advance and shoot all that dakka!  

[XeonDragon]

Quick question Dracos, do you take a squad of 5, 10 or some other number? 

 

The Warhawks are a successor chapter so yeah I usually go Bolter Fusillades and Whirlwind of Rage. Choice of Chapter Tactics has no effect on this particular subject however. That’s a matter of do I get my “rerolls” from … Chapter Tactics or HQ. This is about effective use of CP/Stratagems and unit choices.

Having a comparatively cheap unit / model that can double shoot or double fight and counts as ObSec so has to be killed by my opponent for multiple reasons, allows me to utilize the rest of my army knowing that at least for a turn, hopefully two a lot of resources will be devoted that direction.

I’m not suggesting they are throw away units … even though they kind of are … I’ll even throw Transhuman on them if I think the math is good (I’m a bit weird in that I think Transhuman is way overrated if used against S7 and less weapons … so it either needs to be a fair number of S8 of a lot of S5-7 attacks). Point is they’re ObSec and using Master of Ambush or SftS should get them lot of attention. Attention that suddenly isn’t on my Infiltrators/Incursors first turn.

There’s a whole other thing about going first and second but the basic premise is the same where action economy and movement are king and queen, Assault Intercessors and RF Intercessors are royalty.

[Dracos]

Always 10 to get most out of the stratagem.

[XeonDragon]

Excellent (in Mr Burns voice) - most excellent! :D

Always 10 to get most out of the stratagem.

[Jaipii]

This is some great insight! Thanks for sharing it Dracos. So far my emphasis has been on small elite units and I've struggled how to meaningfully incorporate the "necessary evil" troops to my list. This way (bulking up and plan on using the double fight/shoot) the troop options could become a more meaningful part of my game plan. :D

 

This has actually inspired me so much I've already started building up two 10 man squads of Intercessors (Assault+Bolter). I plan on using RG Successors with BornHeroes and WhirlwindOfRage for close-up action and Jump Pack Captain for re-roll 1s on the Bolter Intercessors :D

Having a comparatively cheap unit / model that can double shoot or double fight and counts as ObSec so has to be killed by my opponent for multiple reasons, allows me to utilize the rest of my army knowing that at least for a turn, hopefully two a lot of resources will be devoted that direction.

I’m not suggesting they are throw away units … even though they kind of are … I’ll even throw Transhuman on them if I think the math is good (I’m a bit weird in that I think Transhuman is way overrated if used against S7 and less weapons … so it either needs to be a fair number of S8 of a lot of S5-7 attacks). Point is they’re ObSec and using Master of Ambush or SftS should get them lot of attention. Attention that suddenly isn’t on my Infiltrators/Incursors first turn. .

[XeonDragon]

Yeah, it's got me thinking as well. I love my aggressor or relic terminators with MOA, but the fight-twice strat on a unit of 10 chainsword wielding ob-sec intercessors has me intrigued. I'd promised myself not to get anymore SM troops this year, but... but.... must resist.... 

[duz_]

Seemed appropriate to spin this discussion off into its own thread ;)

[Jaipii]

Some Assault Intercessors in the pipeline!

[Dracos]

Seemed appropriate to spin this discussion off into its own thread

 

Thank You

 

I was honestly thinking that last time I posted. 

[Dracos]

Yeah, it's got me thinking as well. I love my aggressor or relic terminators with MOA, but the fight-twice strat on a unit of 10 chainsword wielding ob-sec intercessors has me intrigued. I'd promised myself not to get anymore SM troops this year, but... but.... must resist.... 

 

Have you been using False Flight with your Aggressors? 

 

I spent half a campaign early this year with my Eradicators getting charged by cheap troops before I drilled it into my head to save CP for this Stratagem when I say my opponent was making a move on them. 

 

Strike from the Shadows is our obvious go to Strat, but I have been getting a lot of mileage out Infilitrators (with Blade Guard or Aggressors), False Flight, and The Raven's Blade.

 

PS: I'm stealing a page out of Jaipii's Codex and going to start using Born Heroes and Whirlwind of Rage. I've started incorporating more melee tactics in my gameplan, along with more Eradicators and Plasma Inceptors. With less "bolter" units it just makes sense. Although if I were spamming Aggressors I'd definitely stick with my original Chapter Tactics. I'm just using Blade Guard were I use to use Aggressors (for now lol)

Edited October 11, 2021 by Dracos

[XeonDragon]

Yeah, I use false flight with aggressor and relic terminator to good effect. You are right though, you have to budget the 2CP for it. Raven's blade is awesome, especially when you have a handful of depleted units in a mini-castle facing a big nasty... pop it, declare the big nasty the target of the charge and re-roll everything into it :) 

 

Infiltrators is good, agreed. I am toying with BH/WOR, things hitting on 2s due to BH in melee is good, and exploding 6s to hit in melee is better than re-roll 1s. Either that or master artisans  (MA) and WOR. I think you are right in that BH/WOR lends itself to a melee focus, almost something similar to BA/WS/BT.

 

I think MA and and WOR could work, but to get the most out of it I think you have to really "lean into" MSU and units with a high strength and damage, low number of shots shooting or melee weapon (ideally both). Things like an intercessor squad with the assault grenade launcher and a power fist on the sergeant, where you can get real value out of re-rolling a S6 or S8 attack. Maybe things like an attack bike or MSU of eradicators or devastators with missile launchers or las-cannons. Terminators with CML, things like that. That could give some nice reliability to strong weapons sprinkled across the entire army.  

 

That said, I am thinking of trying a new list built around having as many "TAC" units with bolters and melee weapons (especially heavy ones) as possible. Things like terminators, bikes with chain swords etc. Idea being use heavy melee weapons as key AT plank, bolters as, well, bolters. Not sure how it will go, but if almost every unit is getting re-roll 1s on bolters and exploding 6s with decent melee weapons, I kind of feel that might be a very reliable and solid base. Time will tell!  

[Dracos]

I bring this up specifically here because we have Strike from the Shadows, Master of Ambush and Infiltrators as ways of giving Gravis units maneuverability other Chapters don't have. 

 

How much do you prefer to use of each ?

 

How much becomes too much (or either or both) ?

 

 

Until recently I've been a huge fan of no less than 5 in a unit, regardless of how the Codex says these units can be used. As 9th has progressed though it has become apparent to me that in a competitive environment this is probably not the best use of resources.

 

I have started crafting list and will be testing 3 and 6 man units. I'm leaning toward 6 and then combat squading them during deployment or after they come out of reserve. It takes up less force organization slots. I'm running into an issue of how much of each is really useful or what is too much.

 

 

The pluses and minuses of each is pretty obvious to much of us. Plasma Inceptors are my preferred choice to double down on due to their TAC nature. Twelve comes to over a third of a list though so 2 units of 6 definitely seems to in the Too Much category. Eradicators on the other hand would require 2 - 4 CP to Strike from the Shadows .... which also falls into the Too Much category for me. So where does that leave us?

 

(As an aside I am really trying to keep at least one unit of Eliminators in my list though I prefer 2)

 

 

Myself?

 

I am currently going to start testing  1 unit of 6 Plasma Inceptors and 1 unit of 6 Eradicators. My issue is I know from Crusade games that 3 (x2) man units of Eradicators hurt but don't put down any of the bad boys like Knights, Redemptors, Riptides, etc. and I don't want to waste CP to bring in an under-powered unit from reserve. My hope is - that when I have two targets that require the Eradicators attention - that the Plasma Inceptors can finish off the target when that happens. 

 

Well those are my musings. What about yours?

[XeonDragon]

I think combat squads can't be done when they come on out of strategic reserves, to decision has to be made before the declaring reserves step of deployment :(  see here and here. 

 

In terms of SFTS and infiltrators, my main issue is CP. I rarely start with more than 9 CP (usually about 7 or 8). So to my mind, spending say 4 more CP to start at 3 or 4 CP means my already CP hungry army is starved. For me, I think about 2-3CP on those stratagems is the most I would spend in most games. Maybe I'd spend more if it meant not being shot off a light LOS-blocking terrain table when facing ad mech, but yeah. So if I am doing to do it, I go with bigger units, e.g. 4-5 eradicators, 6 plasma inceptors.

 

If the unit can split fire without penalty, I lean towards large units. For eradicators... I usually run 4 when striking from the shadows (trying to ensure a kill without over-committing). I think infiltrators might be a better option for things like plasma inceptors and attack bikes where you can deploy aggressively, but then get them out of LOS. SFTS probably better for things like eradicators or aggressors. 

[superwill]

I do feel like SM troops are some of the worst (if not the worst) troops in the game. I like the idea of trying to actually invest in them and make them more worthwhile, turning them from a tax into an asset. The 40 -2 bolters shots are decent, especially if the buff support that you're giving them is buffing a lot of other stuff at the same time. The strike twice ability is cool too, and with the right CTs and proper CP investment they could get stuff done. SM also have access to some of the most amazing charge buffs in the game - a 7" rerollable charge isn't too hard to get access to, you'd just want to make sure you have a few units making use of it. I have only tried the 10 man assault intercessor squad built to fight twice one, and it was incredibly weak. I think they rolled badly, I can't quite remember what CTs I was running either, I just remember being shocked that they did almost nothing. But I wouldn't write them off after one bad adventure, I just haven't felt that inspired to try them again yet.

 

I think the good thing about them in RG is that they will weirdly be almost the least threatening unit on the board (if you're running a classic RG threat overload), so if you send them forward really aggressively the opponent will have a large unit of obsec, fight twice bros on their doorstep. Either they ignore them for the greater risks, and probably lose a unit and maybe an objective, or the assault intercessors actually manage to achieve what SM troops almost never achieve, and actually draw fire away from the more important units. Usually units like infiltrators, intercessors, incursors, can just be completely ignored until all the threats are removed and then just easily get picked off. A full AI squad demands a little more attention.

Edited November 18, 2021 by superwill

[Dracos]

I've played the MoA Assault Intercessors a lot this year, especially in Crusade games. They do tend to get ignored if I have the 2 Blade Guard units on the board using Infiltrate to reinforce the midboard Objectives held by Infiltrators. When I get first turn these kinds of things happen on a regular basis.

 

wipe out a 20 Necron Warriors

wipe out a 30 Ork Boyz

wipe our 20 Tzaangors

destroy 20 Pox Walkers

and more

 

They've actually done a number on a Redemptor and Hellbrute but that took more than a single round of combat.

 

Don't get me wrong they die like any Intercessor on the follow up but in doing so they almost always wreck the opponents game plan. Not going first is the problem. The MoA losses its effectiveness and the Assault Intercessors have lost there place in my list for the standard Intercessors recently who are more flexible. 

[XeonDragon]

Thanks for sharing. In terms of troops, I agree that incursors are great. Personally I am going off auto-bolt intercessors. They either get ignored or wiped out and, honestly, if they get targeted by a proper melee unit they will die just as fast as tacticals unless you drop THP, which I'd rather spend on the primaris chaplain on bike or eradicators, inceptors etc. I usually take 1 incursor squad 1 either incursors or infiltrators, and the third is always up for grabs. In my last few games I have been experimenting with stalker intercessors and a tactical squad with grav cannon or missile launcher instead of auto-bolt intercessors. I'll get back to you, by my early thought are the tactical squad, in cover, near an objective plinking away with the heavy weapon is better than the auto intercessors.

 

In terms of chapter tactics, totally agree the distances need to change. That is why I run successors. That said, I had a thought bubble inspired by a recent goonhammer article where, in relation to an iron hands successor list they said: 

 

 

The fundamental logic here is that you only need the stratagems, traits and superdoctrine from Hands to send the performance of the Dreadnoughts and Devastators through the roof, so you can use your Chapter Tactic on something that makes the Vanguard Veterans extra deadly against whatever they slam into.

 

So that got me thinking: what units are best for our super doctrine? +1 to hit and +1 to wound in both shooting and melee whilst tactical doctrine is active.

 

From a successors perspective, if you go the BH/WOR, I think you'd be looking for shooting units that are either cheap and can target characters or mobile and can get around screens: eliminators and plasma inceptors, company veterans with combi weapons in drop pods, maybe (maybe?) VGVs with plasma or grav pistols. Then rely on the successor chapter traits to do the melee work. So that makes me think that 3 x eliminators is a good idea, even if it means replacing eradicators with attack bikes or sterngaurd with 2 x MM and 3 x combi melta (7 melta shots, albeit 3 with shorter range for a similar cost to a 3-man squad of eradicators). The eliminators / shooty units are buffed by the superdoctrine, the rest of the list you build around your successor traits.

 

From a pure RG perspective, I think it is a bit harder. Ideally, to get the absolute most out the super doctrine you want a unit that can shoot and fight, and is mobile enough or can natively deep strike into range of enemy characters. However, the chapter tactics work best on units with decent range and which can move and shoot without penalty and with enough mobility to dash from terrain to terrain to maximise the chance of the chapter tactics (again noting the pure insanity of the light cover and the chapter tactic not stacking!).

 

So, for the super doctrine, I think units like terminators, smash/slash/slam characters and company veterans with a combi weapon and a melee weapon (delivered via drop pod) are good, as can VGVs with a pistol or some sort and melee weapon. Maybe bikes, outriders, aggressors (+1 to wound on bolters against characters makes them decent) as well. However, I think it is really hard to think of a broad range units that really take advantage of of the chapter tactics. Maybe eliminators with the carbine for move-shoot-move and advance? Scout with shot guns? (range may be an issue). Aggressors can advance and shoot, but are slow and lack range making it harder to move/advance to terrain so that you can get the chapter tactics bonuses and still shoot. 

 

I'd love to hear everyone's ideas on units that:

1. Make best use of the superdoctrine (be it from a pure RG or successor perspective) 
2. Make best or easiest use of the pure RG chapter tactics and
3. Make best or easiest use of a particular combination of successor chapter traits (e.g. eradicators with master artisans and rapid assault)

[Dracos]

I had a practice match planned for today but the store had to close early. My opponent took a pass and I decided to do a bit of deployment practice based on the list I'm contemplating for the RTT. The set up is designed to block out opponents who like to deep strike/use reserves and have a chance to grab at least half the Objectives and deny my opponent one.

Red - is what is likely to be in Reserve. Aggressors and Eradicators who I plan to combat squad in most circumstances. Aggressors have the fire and punch power to clear off a lightly held Objective. 2-3 CP

Purple - Is most likely target for Master of Ambush. Assault Intercessors, who I am arguing with myself about changing to Bolt Rifle Intercessors. If I get First Go, I usually throw them at an opponent and reck face on a large blob or troops or something that moves fast but the math says Strike Twice will kill it most the time. You see the Eliminators circled in blue in front of them? They are going to be my Action Monkeys.

Green - Improperly deployed in the picture above (they should be behind the area terrain not in it, are the Plasma Inceptors. They are suppose to be in position to either support the Eliminators "holding" the center of the board or . . .

Blue - . . . support the Blade Guard and Infiltrator/Incursors (haven't really decided yet) grabbing midboard Objectives. The Infiltrator/Incursors and Eliminators are all potential targets for the Lord of Deceit Warlord trait.

I have Las Fusil on the Eliminators right now but I'm strongly contemplating going back to Bolter Sniper Rifles to save points and keep them focused as Action Monkeys. I feel I need the extra high strength firepower though so I'm waffling over having that or giving helix gauntlets to the Infiltrators and a power fist to the Assault Intercessors. On the flip side using Incursors saves me the same points. I keep the Las Fusil and go with Bolt RIfle Intercessors. Either way these deployment ideas remain in place.

I want flexibility but anyone paying attention to winning Marine list these days see the Astartes as thugs surviving by killing all before them with Redemptors and Vanguard Vets. Bleh :p

This is GW's other terrain placement. My deployment is adjusted by placing the Eliminators forwars with the first two drops, using Lord of Deceit later to position them in the back corners pre-game. I've played on this table a couple of times and those corners are a great place for units that Deep Strike or use Reserves. The Eliminators are great for Retrieve Octarius Data. If I keep them as Snipers I won't miss the shooting as much and if I keep them Las Fusil they have a nice chunk of board to provide cover fire.

Look at the middle of the board on the second terrain placement. It's a freaking death trap for Oath of the Moment. I really am weak on picking Secondaries at the moment but just seeing that now gas me running to the books looking for an alternate secondary.

Plenty to think about and darn glad I have some time before I have to nail down the list. I almost have what I want, but man this would have been a lot easier if the Plasma Inceptors hadn't got nerfed quite so hard. I'm astonished the Redemptors and VVets got a pass during the recent "Balance" lol.

[GreyCrow]

Troops are fantastic in 9th edition honestly. I've played more with an Ultramarines successor force in 9th than Raven Guard just out of nerdism for Roman lines which I find absolutely cool and Ultramarines do reward lots of Troops very much with special relics like Seal of Oath.

 

Troops have a secret benefit that most post don't see! They don't do much damage at first glance, but it does add up over time.

30 Intercessors in Rapid Fire or Bolter Discipline range, with a Captain + Lieutenant rerolls :

 

13.61 MEQ wounds out of Tactical Doctrine, 18.14 MEQ wounds in Tactical doctrine.

 

6 Gravis Wounds, so 2 dead Gravis, and that includes the Stratagem that improves the save versus D1 weapons.

9 Gravis Wounds, so 3 dead Gravis, with the same conditions as above.

 

Now points wise, that doesn't seem great, but 3 Gravis versus 9 Intercessors is a big loss.

 

That might not seem fantastical and it is not. Per turn. But do that for 3-4 turns and the casualties are starting to pile up.

 

Unchecked for 4 turns and assuming 2 Turns of Tactical doctrine, Intercessors can deal 63 MEQ wounds. And that is just shooting, not counting any damage from Assault which is sure to occur.

 

__

 

Specifically to Raven Guard, the deployment options are phenomenal. Raven Guard are masters of dodging damage and controlling the engagement parameters.

 

Strike from the Shadows strat on 30 Intercessors is very, very violent until Tactical Doctrine. They will take 0 damage and emerge out of nowhere concentrating force on a single target. 

In the meantime, you can use dodging tactics and defense stratagems on the rest of your supporting elements, plus the brilliant CT to severely mitigate damage.

 

Choosing when and where you fight is critical.

 

Imagine you have 30 Intercessors in Strike from the Shadows, and the enemy has a relatively spread out line. You can concentrate 30 Intercessors on 10 in a flank in Tactical doctrine with the Deep Strike capability and delete a squad.

 

Now that gives the advantage, assuming the enemy had 30 Troops originally, now you are winning the attrition with a 3:2 ratio on the board. That may not seem much, but that means the enemy can't delete 1 squad of your Troops in 1 turn with his Troops only.

 

This forces him to commit other forces to the battle to beat your line Troops. Which now makes his behavior predictible.

__

 

 

I could go on and on about Troops for hours so I'll stop there. They are very under rated in the meta because they have nothing ostensibly fancy about them. Which is a big part of their strength since nobody expects them to do anything!

 

There are 3 basic principles in Tactics that Troops really help with :

 

1) Bringing the right tool to deal with the right target : By forcing the enemy to fire on Troops, it's easier to move about and deliver support units where they matter the most.

 

2) Superior local concentration of force : In 40k, the 2 armies are roughly equal, so to win a game one has to bring more local force in 1 part of the map, in sequence. In that scenario, Troops are not weak. Especially resilient Troops like Marines can force the enemy to dedicate large volumes of fire into 1 area to deal with 10 basic dudes, if you decide to split your forces.

 

If it takes 400 - 600 points of the enemy force to reliably wipe out 1 Intercessor/Tactical Squad, it's 400-600 points that are not used elsewhere!

Therefore, you bring 1800 points versus 1400-1600 which is already a 15% to 20% advantage. Even better if you can concentrate more force locally.

 

3) Attacking the enemy from multiple angles : Not speaking of geometrical angles here. If you bring 6 Inceptors and 10 Intercessors to the same engagement, the opponent will have 2 deploy 2 different strategies to deal with them effectively.

You need high D weapons to screw the Inceptors, and you need a decent volume of fire to deal with the Intercessors. It's 2 different answers that need to be brought, which takes up more resources.

 

We love thinking of glorious triumph in 1 on 1 combat as part of the western trope of knights and honour. Honour is PR. Gentlemanly duels were usually taken when one knew something that the other didn't.

 

Gentlemanly is winning with an unfair advantage that the opponent cannot see, so it seems fair but isn't.

[superwill]

I love our troops so much when it comes to models, but find their rules so bad that I usually just run the barebones 3 5 man units or just skip them altogether.

 

I like your optimism on them, but I find the logic a little hard to follow I'm afraid. Please don't take offence as none's intended, I'm just offering some counter-points for discussion and really value a good back-and-forward even just in helping me process things.

 

Those 30 intercessors + cpt + lt cost you 455 points. Personally I just need them to be killing more than 6 marines per turn (8 marines for 2 turns of tactical) for that kind of investment. As you say, they have a reputation for being reasonably tanky but wielding water pistols when it comes to damage output, and I'm afraid there isn't much you've unpacked that I think challenges that assessment. If they were super tanky like DG or maybe even BT then they could afford to be totally impotent and just sit still with obsec, but they're really not that tanky compared to other factions' options. 

 

Compare them to another unit, such as the IH grav-cannon devastator squad pods that are popular at the moment. Two grav-cannon squads riding in a drop pod will kill not 6 but 23 marines. They have some drawbacks, mainly that they provide you with less bodies than the 30 intercessors do and don't have obsec. But they also have some big advantages (apart from the 3-4x damage output) - T1 arrival, deployment anywhere they want so they don't have to walk, they come with the DP which is good for holding objectives, give up less secondary points, can challenge a much wider variety of targets and most spectacularly they cost 115 points less!

 

Most of the analysis/reasoning you did I think actually works against the troops. The idea of spending 3CP to throw the 3 squads in reserves and have them arrive and blitz something is usually an efficient idea, but doesn't really work with intercessors, who actually wouldn't even wipe the 10 man squad but would only kill 60% of the squad even in tac doctrine on their own. And even if you add in a cpt and lt AND some lucky rolling and manage to clear the 10 man squad (who better not be in cover), it's not exactly going to turn the game and you've just spent a bunch of CPs and a quarter of your army to focus down one 100 point unit that didn't really pose a threat anyway other than having obsec.

 

You yourself said "If it takes 400 - 600 points of the enemy force to reliably wipe out 1 Intercessor/Tactical Squad, it's 400-600 points that are not used elsewhere! Therefore, you bring 1800 points versus 1400-1600 which is already a 15% to 20% advantage." But in fact, that's exactly what you'd be doing, using your 450 point taskforce to wipe (not reliably!) his 1 intercessor/tactical squad. And as we saw, if your opponent isn't spending points on troops but is buying other things (such as plasmaceptors, dreadnoughts, eradicators, hellblasters, VV, devastators etc.) then he will only need, for example, 340 points of devastators to wipe 23 of your intercessors.

 

Your reasoning on the power of alpha-strike is right - that if you can strike first and punch your opponent hard you've crippled their return firepower and had the opportunity to remove key threats so that they can't hurt you. But that is a statement in favour of the value of hard-hitting units, not kinda-resilient but totally-impotent ones.

 

I wish our troops were better, I honestly think SM have the single worst troops choices in the game. The fact that scouts were so hideously bad when compared to things like cultists or guardsmen or admech rangers etc, and yet were still probably our most popular choice and THEN got removed, is a pretty rough statement about the choices we have left.

 

EDIT: Points costs for the intercessors were actually way !more! than I said (meaning their damage-per-cost is way worse even than I suggested) but I'll leave the values in my post as-is so the following posts make sense.

Edited January 6, 2022 by superwill

[jpwyrm]

Just to add a little bit more on superwill analysis, 30 Intercessors actually costs 600 pts. So if you add a Primaris Cpt and Primaris Lt to the mix, it's another 165 pts, for a total of 765 pts in reserves, costing 3 CP and maybe deleting a 10-man Intercessor squad with good roll. Yeah, output for troops is definitely not the way to measure their value on the board I'm afraid...

[superwill]

Just to add a little bit more on superwill analysis, 30 Intercessors actually costs 600 pts. So if you add a Primaris Cpt and Primaris Lt to the mix, it's another 165 pts, for a total of 765 pts in reserves, costing 3 CP and maybe deleting a 10-man Intercessor squad with good roll. Yeah, output for troops is definitely not the way to measure their value on the board I'm afraid...

Holy Moly, yes of course it’s 600! haha. Insane. Well if they were looking bad at 300 points (damage output wise) they’re looking unbearably bad at 600 Edited January 5, 2022 by superwill

[Dracos]

I’ve always been (and will be) a strong proponent of infantry over vehicles for the Astartes. In the current environment that dogma is costing me games due to the ridiculously high quantity of and in many cases quality of said quantity damage. Unless you’re Deathwing and maybe(?) Black Templar you’re just not going to be competitive against the upper tiers of Drukhari … and in my mind soon to add to that Tyranid and Aeldari. You could add Leviathan and Mechanicus to that list with the right player … and Emperor knows Tau are around the corner.

 

I’m going to work at it but I don’t see RG infantry weathering much at the moment especially given the uselessness of cover saves that seem to get ignored about as much as everything new under the dark sun is also getting -1 damage … besides our infantry of course.