Repulsors/Gladiators in a Templar army....

[GenerationTerrorist]

Just so I am reading things correctly from the he previews, I can give my Repulsor a 5++ by taking a certain vow. Plus I can give it a Multi Melta.

 

I think this just might about make one useable as a party bus for my Bladeguard/Ancient/Chief Apothecary and Marshall. At least for a turn or two. Colour me excited.

 

I see the same applies to the Gladiator chassis, but I have no experience using them.

[Medjugorje]

I hope GW will make them cheaper in the next FAQ. If they would be a bit cheaper then we could run them competitiv

[Karhedron]

The 5++ certainly helps their survivabilty.

 

But remember that while it makes Repulsors and possibly Gladiators viable, it also makes Redemptor Dreadnoughts awesome!

[Charlo]

I'm 100% planning a Mechanised army from this as soon as it survives the FAQ!

 

Gladiators and Impulsors full of angry dudes with Multi-Meltas everywhere!

[Khornestar]

I'm 100% planning a Mechanised army from this as soon as it survives the FAQ!

 

Gladiators and Impulsors full of angry dudes with Multi-Meltas everywhere!

Also very curious if this buff survives. Really doesn’t seem too bad in light of things like dark eldar and admech, but there has never been an even handed approach. Could go either way. Edited October 11, 2021 by Juggernut

[Jacques Corbin]

I mean, why would an opponent shoot at the crusader squads while 2 Gladiators with extra Multimelta are bearing down on them? 4 Lastalon shots and 6 Multimelta shots will wreck their armor. When you hit on a 3+ that is 2 out of 3 of your shots hitting. So, statistically, adding 2 more shots will mean that 4 will hit out of 6.

 

Also, you can charge the Valiants into enemy units ahead of your Crusader Squads, because they can eat (tau) Overwatch a lot better than infantry or bikers.

[Charlo]

 

I'm 100% planning a Mechanised army from this as soon as it survives the FAQ!

 

Gladiators and Impulsors full of angry dudes with Multi-Meltas everywhere!

Also very curious if this buff survives. Really doesn’t seem too bad in light of things like dark eldar and admech, but there has never been an even handed approach. Could go either way.

 

The closest analogue is Iron Father Feiros giving everything a 5++ that was nerfed to just infantry.

 

However seeing as Iron Hands had loads of other buffs that helped vehicles this was just part of the nerf.

 

Deathwatch have the Dominus Aegis which is limited to CORE, however seeing as Vows are analogus to Super Doctrines, limiting them to CORE doesn't seem correct.

[Tokugawa]

 

 

 

 

I'm 100% planning a Mechanised army from this as soon as it survives the FAQ!

 

Gladiators and Impulsors full of angry dudes with Multi-Meltas everywhere!

Also very curious if this buff survives. Really doesn’t seem too bad in light of things like dark eldar and admech, but there has never been an even handed approach. Could go either way.

 

The closest analogue is Iron Father Feiros giving everything a 5++ that was nerfed to just infantry.

 

However seeing as Iron Hands had loads of other buffs that helped vehicles this was just part of the nerf.

 

Deathwatch have the Dominus Aegis which is limited to CORE, however seeing as Vows are analogus to Super Doctrines, limiting them to CORE doesn't seem correct.

 

IMO the closest is TSons, which receive army-wide 5++ to all "arcana astartes" units(all their marine stuff). That made their rhinos decent, but don't bring the "bad" stuff(e.g. predators, vindicators, LR) to competitive tables.

[Karhedron]

IMO the closest is TSons, which receive army-wide 5++ to all "arcana astartes" units(all their marine stuff). That made their rhinos decent, but don't bring the "bad" stuff(e.g. predators, vindicators, LR) to competitive tables.

It has made Hellbrutes a very tasty choice for them though.

[Mandragola]

Due to previous errors of judgement I have 3 undercoated Repulsor Executioners and a couple of impulsors, looking for an army. If this buff survives the FAQ, BTs could well be that army. I'm vaguely considering converting an executioner into a LRC... though actually I do own a LRC. I do quite like the idea of a Gladiator Reaper too, though clearly I don't need any more tanks at this point!

 

Anyway, a 5++ and a bonus multimelta is pretty clearly a good thing for a vehicle. Mortal Wound protection is pretty nice too, and actually better for vehicles than a lot of other chapters' buffs.

 

I'm not too sure who/what should ride in these vehicles. For the Executioners maybe aggressors, though they fill an executioner a bit faster than I'm happy with. For impulsors it's hard to argue against hellblasters. Both units gain a lot from a 5++. Then of course you have the obvious stuff like bladeguard and sword brethren.

 

So I think overall there's some synergy here. Better vehicles and better units to put in them. It's not exactly how I picture a BT force working but it could well work.

 

It may also be worth having a quick look at FW vehicles to see if anything interesting has happened there. Things like the Sicaran get a bit of help too.

[9x19 Parabellum]

Given that your tanks still don't have access to rerolls, I'd limit the type of tanks you take to the Dakka variety.  Reaper for Gladiators, and fill your Repulsors with dakka, rather than single shot AT style weapons.

 

That way your dice average out.

[Medjugorje]

hmmm... the more dice the more likely you come to average. And then you antitank will do what they should do and could do

[9x19 Parabellum]

hmmm... the more dice the more likely you come to average. And then you antitank will do what they should do and could do

 

Right.  A gladiator lancer firing it's one big weapon rolls a "2" and then your 250 pt. tank has produced no usefulness for that turn.

A gladiator reaper firing 24 gatling gun shots should average out pretty well.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

hmmm... the more dice the more likely you come to average. And then you antitank will do what they should do and could do

That's not how probability works.

[Kastor Krieg]

hmmm... the more dice the more likely you come to average.

OK, my dude. This single sentence should allow everyone to completely disregard your doom and glooming about Templars and "competetiveness".

 

You can't be taken seriously about unit strength in this game if this is your understanding of probabilities.

[tvih]

I mean... he's not entirely wrong? A roll of 12D6 will usually have more deviation from an average result (as in equal numbers of each die face) than 120D6 will. Whether or not and to what extent that affects your list building or actual battles is another thing. The dice will find a way to ruin your day regardless :P

[Marshal Reinhard]

I'm not sure if the wording is what is throwing people off, but when you increase the number of dice throws made, the results average will go more and more towards the expected value of the individual dice roll (the average of the different results of the dice's side), which I suspect is what is meant

[Kastor Krieg]

I'm not sure if the wording is what is throwing people off, but when you increase the number of dice throws made, the results average will go more and more towards the expected value of the individual dice roll (the average of the different results of the dice's side), which I suspect is what is meant

You're thinking of the strong law of large numbers? Yeah, sure, but even on a single D6 die the expected value is ~3.5, variation barely exceed 3 and only normalizes at 3.5 at 400-500 rolls. See the graph here:

https://plus.maths.org/content/maths-minute-expectation

 

First normalization at 3.5 is around 100 rolls. Unless you're a mob of orks in melee this does not apply to you much and at our expected 40-50 rolls we're actually sliding the furthest away from the expected value, towards 3. So he's heard something somewhere, but he's dead wrong - the more he rolls with Templars, the more off the expected value he gets. And the variability beyond 100 rolls is negligible to be honest.

 

Assuming anyone will be accounting for expected D6 value of 3.2 instead of 3.5 at a Warhammer table is really over the top and by much.

Edited October 12, 2021 by Reclusiarch Krieg

[Marshall Bretton]

My head hurts...

[Marshal Reinhard]

 

I'm not sure if the wording is what is throwing people off, but when you increase the number of dice throws made, the results average will go more and more towards the expected value of the individual dice roll (the average of the different results of the dice's side), which I suspect is what is meant

You're thinking of the strong law of large numbers? Yeah, sure, but even on a single D6 die the expected value is ~3.5, variation barely exceed 3 and only normalizes at 3.5 at 400-500 rolls. See the graph here:

https://plus.maths.org/content/maths-minute-expectation

 

First normalization at 3.5 is around 100 rolls. Unless you're a mob of orks in melee this does not apply to you much and at our expected 40-50 rolls we're actually sliding the furthest away from the expected value, towards 3. So he's heard something somewhere, but he's dead wrong - the more he rolls with Templars, the more off the expected value he gets. And the variability beyond 100 rolls is negligible to be honest.

 

Assuming anyone will be accounting for expected D6 value of 3.2 instead of 3.5 at a Warhammer table is really over the top and by much.

 

Yes, as the number of rolls tend to infinity, the average collapses down to exactly 3.5. Which is what I read...

 

hmmm... the more dice the more likely you come to average.

...to mean. I agree, it's not likely to matter much, but if read that way, what he says isn't wrong. The practical applicability of it in a game can be debated.

 

I do take some issues with the latter half of what you wrote: 

 

...we're actually sliding the furthest away from the expected value, towards 3. So he's heard something somewhere, but he's dead wrong - the more he rolls with Templars, the more off the expected value he gets. And the variability beyond 100 rolls is negligible to be honest.

Assuming anyone will be accounting for expected D6 value of 3.2 instead of 3.5 at a Warhammer table is really over the top and by much.

 

 

We're sliding away from the expected value either upward or downward, so either towards 3 or 4. To suggest otherwise would be to say there is a downward bias in the results if you're rolling a lower number of dice. The article has a graph of a random sequence that tended towards the lower result, so the evolution of the average tends downwards early in their example

 

And I don't mean to suggest you don't understand this, this is mostly for anyone else's reading benefit who may not be well versed in this.

 

I was about to write more response, but realized that "the more off the expected value he gets" was probably just a typo ("off" instead of "of").

[9x19 Parabellum]

Ok look you can throw us much stat theory as you want at me.  I've played these games long enough to know that...

 

it's not only possible, but likely, that, after to-hit rolls, to-wound-rolls, and invuln armor saves, it is highly like that the 2 shots from my lancer accomplish nothing.  And by turn 3 it's dead anyway, if not sooner.

 

it's likely, and expected, that of the 24 HOGC shots from reaper, a few of them will get by and kill stuff.

 

.724 unsaved wounds is not actually a result that can happen on dice.  That exists on mathhammer, not in warhammer.

[Lord Blackwood]

This is a sketch of what I am thinking , Have not figured out the relics or anything just what popped into my head as amusing and fluffy 

Techmarines are my favorite units anyway so kitbashing one out of the Emperors Champion specifically to lead this force is on the table. 
 
+++ MotorCrusade (Warhammer 40,000 9th Edition) [104 PL, 9CP, 1,970pts] +++
 
++ Vanguard Detachment -3CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Black Templars) [104 PL, 9CP, 1,970pts] ++
 
+ Configuration +
 
Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) 
 
Chapter Selection: Black Templars
 
Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]
 
+ HQ +
 
Primaris Chaplain on Bike [6 PL, 115pts]: Litany of Hate, Warlord
 
Primaris Techmarine [4 PL, 80pts]
 
+ Elites +
 
Bladeguard Veteran Squad [10 PL, 175pts]
. 4x Bladeguard Veteran: 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Heavy Bolt Pistol, 4x Master-crafted power sword, 4x Storm Shield
. Bladeguard Veteran Sergeant: Heavy Bolt Pistol
 
Bladeguard Veteran Squad [10 PL, 175pts]
. 4x Bladeguard Veteran: 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Heavy Bolt Pistol, 4x Master-crafted power sword, 4x Storm Shield
. Bladeguard Veteran Sergeant: Heavy Bolt Pistol
 
Redemptor Dreadnought [9 PL, 185pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Icarus Rocket Pod, Macro Plasma Incinerator, Onslaught Gatling Cannon
 
Redemptor Dreadnought [9 PL, 185pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Icarus Rocket Pod, Macro Plasma Incinerator, Onslaught Gatling Cannon
 
Redemptor Dreadnought [9 PL, 185pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Icarus Rocket Pod, Macro Plasma Incinerator, Onslaught Gatling Cannon
 
+ Fast Attack +
 
Invader ATV Squad [4 PL, 85pts]
. Invader ATV: Multi-melta
 
Invader ATV Squad [4 PL, 85pts]
. Invader ATV: Multi-melta
 
+ Heavy Support +
 
Gladiator Reaper [12 PL, 210pts]
 
Gladiator Valiant  [13 PL, 230pts]
 
+ Dedicated Transport +
 
Impulsor [7 PL, 130pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Bellicatus Missile Array
 
Impulsor [7 PL, 130pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Bellicatus Missile Array

[Brother Kraskor]

Invader ATVs with 5++ 

 

I'm thinking of having a Repulsor Executioner rush up with glass cannon cargo (Sword Brethren with swords + Marshal?), flanked by two Redemptors. Blaze of glory straight down the middle.

 

Meanwhile an Impulsor delivers Assault Intercessors & Chaplain onto objective. 

[MarshalMittermeier]

repulsors , both variants, pay a transport tax. and since transporting needs to go forward and assault gun needs to stand back, basicaly they will rarely, if ever, work.

 

but gladiators are almost NEARLY COMPETITIVE. not all variants- a reaper can put out 20 str 4 + 24 str 6 shots per turn though, and a valiant is an excellent tank destroyer. i really think a 5++ could make them see play.

[Charlo]

I quite like the idea of a Crusader squad decked out for combat in a Repulsor with Sigismunds Seal being a mobile threat counter.

 

Assuming some good positioning, they don't need character support for maximum blendage