my honest opinion

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

The main strength is still close combat which is powerful.

 

After some games I think not. We are just like Ultramarines. We have a lot of shooting and we force the opponent into our direction and when he comes we will hit em hard in combat.

But our main strenght is neither nor. We are in the middle - our real strength is our Input and a few shenanigans here and there (both for melee and shooting)

I’m going to be blunt here. Ultramarines have rules that lend themselves to shooting not melee. The new codex for Templars have rules and specialist units for melee not shooting. At this point I’m starting to think you just don’t get it. You say you are competitive but I just can’t help but really wonder now. ^^ Edited October 18, 2021 by Black Blow Fly

[BitsHammer]

A comment I really like from r/warhammercompetetive:

To be fair, as a Templar player since third, the new supplement does a good job making their play style close to what it was like in 3rd and 4th. Even during third when they were considered broken, you needed to bring a mix of tools and be able to play smart since as much as they excel in close combat, other armies were always better. I get the idea of wanting to just charge into melee asap but honestly I am really liking the supplement so far and really excited to get a few games in to see how it all comes together

Edited October 18, 2021 by Fulkes

[Medjugorje]

I am not sure what of those 3 concepts can be competitive

 

 

- Black Tide with new Crusadersquads. I think 2x20 blobbs + 3 Redemptors +X

- fully MSU means a lot of cheap firstborn marines in rhinos. 

- old lists as usual but instead of many fast VV we play a lot of fast shooty units around Termi / BGV blopps

 

 

In gerneral we are not fast, so we need transports. Rhinos are very tough but Firstborns are not that good imo. total different opinion on the Primaris version. The Assault Intercessors always performed very well but the need of a transport is too huge. 110 Points for +1W Rhino. If played with MM then 130 which is 50 points more then rhino and the Primars Marines are not cheaper then Firstborns as well means its soo expensive.

 

I hope we will see some great pointdrops in chapter approved. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

 

Yeah, ultimately Sisters went from one viable build to LOADS, it's probably the best designed 9th Ed book currently out there (bar a couple weird outliers).

 

Templars have been tech'd into their relentless side, which is pretty cool!

I played often agasinst sisters. The old builds looked far stronger to me.

 

 

And come on... at the moment all Sistersplayers just play Morven Vall + Celestine with their bodyguards in a ultraboring TTL- list.

40kstats disagrees with you. The old build was just extremely easy to pilot for great effect with guaranteed long bomb charges.

 

I do agree that theres basically no build variation in top end sisters lists. 85% of lists are the same and you flip from argent shroud to ebon chalice depending on that difference.

[BitsHammer]

 

 

Yeah, ultimately Sisters went from one viable build to LOADS, it's probably the best designed 9th Ed book currently out there (bar a couple weird outliers).

 

Templars have been tech'd into their relentless side, which is pretty cool!

I played often agasinst sisters. The old builds looked far stronger to me.

 

 

And come on... at the moment all Sistersplayers just play Morven Vall + Celestine with their bodyguards in a ultraboring TTL- list.

40kstats disagrees with you. The old build was just extremely easy to pilot for great effect with guaranteed long bomb charges.

 

I do agree that theres basically no build variation in top end sisters lists. 85% of lists are the same and you flip from argent shroud to ebon chalice depending on that difference.

 

In all fairness the top level lists for a given faction almost always end up to fairly identical looking because that's the format that's "solved" for that meta.

[9x19 Parabellum]

I know this comment is a day/2 pages old, but I just wanted to add that I don't think anyone ever thought that "BT is a melee army" means or meant "BT-should-never-take-a-ranged-weapon,-ever,-not-even-grenades,-and-if-they-have-one-they-should-never-actually use-it-in-the-shooting-phase-(maybe-in-the-opponent's-charge-phase-to-fire-overwatch-but-only-if-you're-behind-on-points)"

 

That's NOT what "<x> is a melee army" means.

[Tokugawa]

Every sister list bring Vahl and St.Celestine? Why not! They are cool models with awesome flavor and utility.

 

I sincerely wish BT codex could make people ask "Why every templars player have Helbrecht and Grimaldus?". That is 100 times better than no one playing them.

[BitsHammer]

I know this comment is a day/2 pages old, but I just wanted to add that I don't think anyone ever thought that "BT is a melee army" means or meant "BT-should-never-take-a-ranged-weapon,-ever,-not-even-grenades,-and-if-they-have-one-they-should-never-actually use-it-in-the-shooting-phase-(maybe-in-the-opponent's-charge-phase-to-fire-overwatch-but-only-if-you're-behind-on-points)"

 

That's NOT what "<x> is a melee army" means.

I might be old but I recall threads years ago discussing if certain tank types were "fluffy" or not, as well as the Lascannon/Plasma Crusader squad controversy.

 

There has definitely been a time when Templars were definitely being flanderized into a "melee only" army, and the push away from that led to some people leaving the community as they felt the soul of the army was being lost.

[9x19 Parabellum]

For me, if there is any flanderizing to be done with BT, it's that they are the iconic boltgun and chainsword marine chapter.

[BitsHammer]

For me, if there is any flanderizing to be done with BT, it's that they are the iconic boltgun and chainsword marine chapter.

Damnation Crusade says hi.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

A great listen:

 

https://youtu.be/a3WHbxDuLP4

[MegaVolt87]

I think some are having a hard time with the transition of loyalists once being "hur dur, face-desk XXx420-AlphaStrik3xXX to win" to TAC lists. CSM and dare I say xenos players probably would adept quicker to the BT dex. 

[BitsHammer]

A great listen:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3WHbxDuLP4

Been waiting for them to give us a video.

I think some are having a hard time with the transition of loyalists once being "hur dur, face-desk XXx420-AlphaStrik3xXX to win" to TAC lists. CSM and dare I say xenos players probably would adept quicker to the BT dex. 

Definitely. I think they play a lot like how I used to play sisters: short range shooting that will smash your face in if I can get my melee near you.

[8Six]

So, I'll give some perspective. I am a long time BT player. I started back in 3rd, played them through 6th edition, and sold my army in 7th edition. At that time, my Templars felt neglected by GW, so I had lost some of that Zeal (I know, Heresy...). I did not play Templars in 8th or early 9th when I know their focus was melee, and maybe that is why I look at the Chalice as half full rather than half empty. I suppose if I played them in their recent versions, I would struggle to see the value of this new codex as it asks you to completely change your play style.

 

That said, this new codex reminds me of my Templars back in 4th. They were a true jack of all trade army. Mix in good shooting and good melee. Good at both, great at neither.

 

I see this new codex as being incredibly resilient. Probably the most resilient army outside of Death Guard. In fact, think of playing Templars in the exact same manner as Death Guard. Board control, board control, board control, but provide enough fire support so that your enemy can't just pick you off.

 

It may not be the most exciting style to play (we are Templars after all, and a good scrum livens up the game a bit), but this is going to be a tough army to beat once we master the tools we are provided.

 

Remember, the Templars view the bolter as a sacred weapon just as much as they do their swords. That is the key to being successful with Templars. You need both to win. As well, we are sons of Dorn, black clad knights that stand against the enemy. We are resilient defenders of the Imperium. A more hardy durable force would make him proud.

 

Good luck brothers. The Emperor protects those who are faithful!

Edited October 18, 2021 by 8Six

[9x19 Parabellum]

...

It may not be the most exciting style to play (we are Templars after all, and a good scrum livens up the game a bit), but this is going to be a tough army to beat once we master the tools we are provided.

 

Remember, the Templars view the bolter as a sacred weapon just as much as they do their swords. That is the key to being successful with Templars. You need both to win. As well, we are sons of Dorn, black clad knights that stand against the enemy. ...

 

I think the mixed combat approach is great.  I'm sorry for all the other people who thought BT was a melee-only army (although, as per my post above, i think that percentage was overall pretty low, for the reasons I mentioned above).  Mixed approach is great, because you're not ONLY painting power swords and chainswords.  It's also more fun to have planning and critical choices to make in both the shooting AND combat phases of the game.

 

The only criticism I have at this point, which is largely the same criticism I had during the rumours/spoilers stage, is that both Vows and SB are a miss. Notice I said "miss" and not "useless garbage".

[8Six]

 

...

It may not be the most exciting style to play (we are Templars after all, and a good scrum livens up the game a bit), but this is going to be a tough army to beat once we master the tools we are provided.

 

Remember, the Templars view the bolter as a sacred weapon just as much as they do their swords. That is the key to being successful with Templars. You need both to win. As well, we are sons of Dorn, black clad knights that stand against the enemy. ...

 

I think the mixed combat approach is great.  I'm sorry for all the other people who thought BT was a melee-only army (although, as per my post above, i think that percentage was overall pretty low, for the reasons I mentioned above).  Mixed approach is great, because you're not ONLY painting power swords and chainswords.  It's also more fun to have planning and critical choices to make in both the shooting AND combat phases of the game.

 

The only criticism I have at this point, which is largely the same criticism I had during the rumours/spoilers stage, is that both Vows and SB are a miss. Notice I said "miss" and not "useless garbage".

 

Agree, 3 of the 4 vows really miss the mark. It is a shame that we will only see the 1 vow in use, which gets a little stale in playstyle. The vows could have really made this army fun to play different styles based on your enemy. Instead, it is a bottle neck, fortunately, the one vow is pretty incredible.

[tvih]

Every sister list bring Vahl and St.Celestine? Why not! They are cool models with awesome flavor and utility.

 

I sincerely wish BT codex could make people ask "Why every templars player have Helbrecht and Grimaldus?". That is 100 times better than no one playing them.

Well... optimally you don't want either of those scenarios, but rather the in-between where named or custom are both "equally" desirable. Alas, I've only used both Grim & Helbrecht in one battle each, because I generally got carried away with my custom kitted HQs in my "BT glory days". But yes, it's always sad if units are as bad as to be useless... all the more when it's an army like Sisters that don't have that many options to begin with. At least we have basically everything except Witches to fall back on from the main codex regardless of our exclusive units.

 

So, I'll give some perspective. I am a long time BT player. I started back in 3rd, played them through 6th edition, and sold my army in 7th edition. At that time, my Templars felt neglected by GW, so I had lost some of that Zeal (I know, Heresy...). I did not play Templars in 8th or early 9th when I know their focus was melee, and maybe that is why I look at the Chalice as half full rather than half empty. I suppose if I played them in their recent versions, I would struggle to see the value of this new codex as it asks you to completely change your play style.

As I think I stated at some point, it's similar for me... although I only started in 6th, which is still my most played edition by far. 7th I didn't play much with any army (total of 5 battles, 3 with BT), 8th was split between various armies but again only 3 with BT... most oldmarines just weren't in a good spot at that point, so the most played army was CF with a Primaris focus since I didn't feel they fit my tabard-y BT aesthetic and having so much of the oldmarine BT already... plus the fluff retcons, urgh. I never played BT with the Faith & Fury rules, or other rules since. I dunno if the new ones are better or not - but heck, at least I finally get some nice BT models and stuff. Thus the project is back on the table, not an overhaul but an addition. And certainly it still at a glance looks to be in better shape rules-wise than it was with any of the previous rules I've personally played with. Most of the problems are indeed game-wide, not army-specific. And I don't need to contend at the "top tables", as long as I can have decent casual battles. Even with all its flaws 6th edition is still the most fun I've had during our old codex, and yet it had my worst win rate of the editions so far (across all armies).

 

As I said in my previous post though, the whole discussion is becoming quite circular. I want to get playing with the army again to see the new tricks in action, but alas, there's a lot of work to do even on most of my "finished" BT models to make 'em ready for the tables again.

[Medjugorje]

 

 

The main strength is still close combat which is powerful.

After some games I think not. We are just like Ultramarines. We have a lot of shooting and we force the opponent into our direction and when he comes we will hit em hard in combat.

But our main strenght is neither nor. We are in the middle - our real strength is our Input and a few shenanigans here and there (both for melee and shooting)

I’m going to be blunt here. Ultramarines have rules that lend themselves to shooting not melee. The new codex for Templars have rules and specialist units for melee not shooting. At this point I’m starting to think you just don’t get it. You say you are competitive but I just can’t help but really wonder now. ^^

 

Ultramarines have good rules for close combat too. They can have rerolls of 1 and rerolls for troops (which can be for assault intercessors which is really insane when you think about twice. You can fight twice and on average 6 hits with your powerfist). But they are too slow to force their units into it. Thats why they are a board controle army which have counter abilities.

[a_typical_hero]

Imho only Abhor the Witch is "awful, never take" territory, where Suffer and AAC are depending on your and your opponent's army.

For example if you take Bladeguard, VV, some HQ and Redemptors / Contemptors, what do you really gain from Uphold the Honor? I think here you would benefit more from one of the other Vows.

 

I see Uphold the Honor as a way to enable US to take a spin on the usual Marine tourny lists.

[Charlo]

 

Imho only Abhor the Witch is "awful, never take" territory, where Suffer and AAC are depending on your and your opponent's army.

For example if you take Bladeguard, VV, some HQ and Redemptors / Contemptors, what do you really gain from Uphold the Honor? I think here you would benefit more from one of the other Vows.

 

I see Uphold the Honor as a way to enable US to take a spin on the usual Marine tourny lists.

 

The invuln save is huge for Redemptors. Many of the best marine lists right now use Redemptors with some kind of invuln!

 

But I do see your point!

[Medjugorje]

 

 

 

Yeah, ultimately Sisters went from one viable build to LOADS, it's probably the best designed 9th Ed book currently out there (bar a couple weird outliers).

 

Templars have been tech'd into their relentless side, which is pretty cool!

I played often agasinst sisters. The old builds looked far stronger to me.

 

 

And come on... at the moment all Sistersplayers just play Morven Vall + Celestine with their bodyguards in a ultraboring TTL- list.

40kstats disagrees with you. The old build was just extremely easy to pilot for great effect with guaranteed long bomb charges.

 

I do agree that theres basically no build variation in top end sisters lists. 85% of lists are the same and you flip from argent shroud to ebon chalice depending on that difference.

 

In all fairness the top level lists for a given faction almost always end up to fairly identical looking because that's the format that's "solved" for that meta.

 

thats correct. In my gaming club We had a conversation about this. Thats why BA perfoming so badly although in general they have so much more close combat buffs/units/rules in general then any other Marine chapter. But they cannot advance and charge. I think thats why in fungames where people dont exploit/use  every little rule and statline often talk so much things i never understand why they have such a different opinion. I never lost to BA or other Marines in 9th edition except one game against DA with my Black Templars just because I had always my lists were always faster then any other of them. 

 

I always had big problems with the old Sisters because they were as fast as my units and cheaper. Big problems with Death Guard ( my nemesis ) because they had options and abilities to ignore some of my strength.

 

 

 

Now I am coming to the conclusion that our way to dominate the meta is (of course waiting on Admech to get a nerf by GW) to be a better and faster Death Guard or better Ultramarines/Iron Hands because I think we can copy their playstyle but perform better. Or we can play an alternate concept with MSU where our own goal is to alive on objectives but and deal that bit damage that we can still kill the most important units of the opponent.

 

But there are 2 things we have it makes us that better then other Marines. We have 2 stratagems which can make our units not that predictable for our opponents. With Devout push and our new "Obsec" stratagem our opponents have to look out for each Core unit within 6" of an objecive marker.

Edited October 18, 2021 by Medjugorje

[tvih]

 

The invuln save is huge for Redemptors. Many of the best marine lists right now use Redemptors with some kind of invuln!

I must say I'm kinda surprised they're considered so good. Sure they have a good amount of shots and -1D is nice, but multi-damage AT weaponry still blows them up in a hurry. My latest battle being a good example of that, despite getting a 5+ armor save against the opposing Exorcist. Wouldn't have had much help from the invuln even if I had been playing BT instead of CF :P

[Medjugorje]

 

 

The main strength is still close combat which is powerful.

After some games I think not. We are just like Ultramarines. We have a lot of shooting and we force the opponent into our direction and when he comes we will hit em hard in combat.

But our main strenght is neither nor. We are in the middle - our real strength is our Input and a few shenanigans here and there (both for melee and shooting)

I’m going to be blunt here. Ultramarines have rules that lend themselves to shooting not melee. The new codex for Templars have rules and specialist units for melee not shooting. At this point I’m starting to think you just don’t get it. You say you are competitive but I just can’t help but really wonder now. ^^

 

like i said - Ultramarines can reroll hits - even in melee. And Rerolls are one of the strongest abilities. Thats why MArines destroyed everything back in start of 8th edition.

 

BT have ailities for melee interaction. of course we have. But we also have a  lot of stratagmes and abilities which makes our units strong in shooting. 

 

The supplement fit our lore really good. Problem here is that many melee focused abilites are far too week to count in my opinion. I do not count AAC as option because of reasons i explained so often. I dont count the Sword brethren stratagem because its just restricted on them. I do not count that many litanies when we only can take 4 in one list.

 

but I will write my new expectations in a new thread.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Ultramarines are good at counter assault which is simple… enemy comes right to you. The reroll hits is good but not great coz it mostly buffs troops not heavy hitters like terminators. This strat is better for Hellblsters and plasma Inceptors.

[Medjugorje]

Ultramarines are good at counter assault which is simple… enemy comes right to you. The reroll hits is good but not great coz it mostly buffs troops not heavy hitters like terminators. This strat is better for Hellblsters and plasma Inceptors.

reroll hits is important if you dont have characters nearby. Thats why Ultramarines can play this units as strong performing unit far away from the center of the army. BT cannot. With Chapter Master or Chaplain Terminator units in the center have rerolls with Ultramarines too. 

SW have +1 why they perform with this troops too. Tbh.... SW und UM have other problems too - they have to spend CPs on the reroll and just one time.

But same is with us... we are even better in the center of the board because of our durability and can do counter  better too. In this case more in melee then in shooting. 

 

 

A lot of people think that " we are not a melee army anymore" means that we are a shooty army - HELL NO. Of course we are not - but our main rules which have an big impact in game i think is 60% durability, 30% close combat and 10% shooting. But most units which can perform with this traits are more shooting units like land speeders ( I already tested them and they are really great). At least that was my first thougths - but i slowly changing my mind. I think our army is much more close to a big Wall of strong durable units ( Primaris Crusader squds, Redemptors,Terminators and other units which can tank) and many small additional units which support us in shooting like i played my games in 5th edtion.

Edited October 18, 2021 by Medjugorje