my honest opinion

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I stand by what I said.

[Medjugorje]

Maybe Primaris Crusadersquads will perform that good that we can still count as Melee army if our 4 Fists do the damage they have to deal.

[BitsHammer]

I think that if we continue to see Mortal Wound spam as a defining feature of 9th Uphold will lose value due to not adding to pur durability against said mortal wounds.

 

Don't know if it'll improve others as the meta shifts, but it's a consideration for sure.

[Charlo]

I think that if we continue to see Mortal Wound spam as a defining feature of 9th Uphold will lose value due to not adding to pur durability against said mortal wounds.

 

Don't know if it'll improve others as the meta shifts, but it's a consideration for sure.

 

True, but if its coming from Psykers.... Well, there's a vow for that :) 

[TheUnlikelyGamer84]

 

 

LOOK WHAT JACK HARPSTER ( the current BEST BT PLAYER) says about the VOWS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

same guy has been crushing it with Blood angels and you said they aren’t competitive. I think people just need time to sort through the dex. Not every amazing combo is glaringly obvious. I’ve played Deathwatch for years now and they “sucked” at the beginning of 9th according to most tournament players. Then some welll known Tournament players from around then world tried them out as a meme and now have dialed in on them being excellent albeit with a dreadnought heavy archetype.

[tvih]

 

I think that if we continue to see Mortal Wound spam as a defining feature of 9th Uphold will lose value due to not adding to pur durability against said mortal wounds.

 

Don't know if it'll improve others as the meta shifts, but it's a consideration for sure.

 

True, but if its coming from Psykers.... Well, there's a vow for that

 

Sadly a bad one, though :P

[Medjugorje]

I think in the USA they have a complete different META then in europe. Especially tournaments in Belgium, Netherlands, Poland and Germany. In those areas you have a so much higher amount of top tier armies then in the states - so much more raw power. In the US the meta seems to be more creative. I think thats because in the states (and england) there are more GTs and Majors so Extreme list building hurt more because you easier to run into a counter army. But thats why here(in GER) you will see more often Admech and Drukhari.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

 

Imho only Abhor the Witch is "awful, never take" territory, where Suffer and AAC are depending on your and your opponent's army.

For example if you take Bladeguard, VV, some HQ and Redemptors / Contemptors, what do you really gain from Uphold the Honor? I think here you would benefit more from one of the other Vows.

 

I see Uphold the Honor as a way to enable US to take a spin on the usual Marine tourny lists.

 

 

If your taking blade guard your taking implusors. So uphold is basically allowing you to get the 5++ and multimelta over the base implusor with shield dome for a very minimal point increase. Realistically your also either taking some troops and/or leaning into some specialists that would benefit a lot. So your probably looking at boost to a large percentage of your army that is always on. I think its going to be the vow that is the most consistent.

 

From the outside looking in it also frustrates me, cause I really would like cheaper impulsors for my wolves. I don't think it will happen cause being able to take a MM, and still have the 5++ is going to be strong.

 

 

 

The invuln save is huge for Redemptors. Many of the best marine lists right now use Redemptors with some kind of invuln!

I must say I'm kinda surprised they're considered so good. Sure they have a good amount of shots and -1D is nice, but multi-damage AT weaponry still blows them up in a hurry. My latest battle being a good example of that, despite getting a 5+ armor save against the opposing Exorcist. Wouldn't have had much help from the invuln even if I had been playing BT instead of CF

 

 

Alot of why redemptors are good has to do with the mission structure and how popular melta is. They push towards the middle of table, and typically can get into combat on turn 2. Alot of armies keep the MM in reserve so you have a decent window to get damage in. That said the armies with good 3 + D3 shooting really do take advantage.

 

I think in the USA they have a complete different META then in europe. Especially tournaments in Belgium, Netherlands, Poland and Germany. In those areas you have a so much higher amount of top tier armies then in the states - so much more raw power. In the US the meta seems to be more creative. I think thats because in the states (and england) there are more GTs and Majors so Extreme list building hurt more because you easier to run into a counter army. But thats why here(in GER) you will see more often Admech and Drukhari.

 

I do think how spread out we are in the US has a pretty big impact on the meta as well. That said I think your right that the number of GTs leads to more creative lists because every list is trying to optimize against the top tiers. 

[BitsHammer]

 

 

 

 

I think that if we continue to see Mortal Wound spam as a defining feature of 9th Uphold will lose value due to not adding to pur durability against said mortal wounds.

 

Don't know if it'll improve others as the meta shifts, but it's a consideration for sure.

True, but if its coming from Psykers.... Well, there's a vow for that

Sadly a bad one, though :P

Rerolling wounds is a strong buff though.

 

And leave action secondaries for those lesser chapters who defend. ;)

[tvih]

Rerolling wounds is a strong buff though.

 

And leave action secondaries for those lesser chapters who defend.

Well, if ya wanna reroll wounds, in a TAC list you should already have a way of doing it without the Abhor vow. It's just not worth giving up other bonuses, even just AAC is better if Uphold seems not-so-great. Besides not many armies are all psykers, which would be the only scenario to even remotely consider Abhor. In the meanwhile many armies spam MWs without being psykers.

[BitsHammer]

 

Rerolling wounds is a strong buff though.

 

And leave action secondaries for those lesser chapters who defend.

Well, if ya wanna reroll wounds, in a TAC list you should already have a way of doing it without the Abhor vow. It's just not worth giving up other bonuses, even just AAC is better if Uphold seems not-so-great. Besides not many armies are all psykers, which would be the only scenario to even remotely consider Abhor. In the meanwhile many armies spam MWs without being psykers.

Thousand Sons, Grey Knights, Tzeentch daemons and maybe weird Nid lists are the only ones I'd consider Abhor against atm.

[Medjugorje]

 

 

Rerolling wounds is a strong buff though.

 

And leave action secondaries for those lesser chapters who defend.

Well, if ya wanna reroll wounds, in a TAC list you should already have a way of doing it without the Abhor vow. It's just not worth giving up other bonuses, even just AAC is better if Uphold seems not-so-great. Besides not many armies are all psykers, which would be the only scenario to even remotely consider Abhor. In the meanwhile many armies spam MWs without being psykers.

Thousand Sons, Grey Knights, Tzeentch daemons and maybe weird Nid lists are the only ones I'd consider Abhor against atm.

 

And against GK they have such of big amount of raw close combat power that 5++ is far more worth it then any first turn 3" or rerolling 1s in melee. No matter that the most shots gonna be ap0 or ap-1.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

LOOK WHAT JACK HARPSTER ( the current BEST BT PLAYER) says about the VOWS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

same guy has been crushing it with Blood angels and you said they aren’t competitive. I think people just need time to sort through the dex. Not every amazing combo is glaringly obvious. I’ve played Deathwatch for years now and they “sucked” at the beginning of 9th according to most tournament players. Then some welll known Tournament players from around then world tried them out as a meme and now have dialed in on them being excellent albeit with a dreadnought heavy archetype.

Jack is not the top ranked BT player. Recently that belonged to a fellow from UK (Innis or Ennis ).

[a_typical_hero]

I really see no matchup where Abhor the Witch would be better than even picking any of the other three randomly. We might be talking if those 3" lasted the whole game. But just one turn and then have a Lieutenant aura that you can get in abundance from other places? No thanks. And we aren't even talking about the Passion for this Vow. Not being able to do actions within 18" is pretty dire.

[Palmu]

I really see no matchup where Abhor the Witch would be better than even picking any of the other three randomly. We might be talking if those 3" lasted the whole game. But just one turn and then have a Lieutenant aura that you can get in abundance from other places? No thanks. And we aren't even talking about the Passion for this Vow. Not being able to do actions within 18" is pretty dire.

The way I see it, Abhor is basically only useful as a first-turn Litany proc from the Chaplain. And even then probably only if the litany is FAQ'd to only last a turn because good lord that Passion is brutal. 

[Medjugorje]

? 

I cant see any Vow is better then Uphold no matter what match except the opponent only fluiting normal  Tactical marines or chaos cultists without any other unit except the minmal HQs

Even against GK and TS Uphold is still better then any other VOW.

 

But WHEN there is a Vow that could be potentially better. Then only Abhor the witch in some weird lists. 

Suffer not the unlcean sounds not totally meh but AAC is the worst by far.

 

Those Vows are just there for our litany ferv. Accl.  like Palmu said. Especially in this case i think Abhor has the most value because you getting +3 movement and rerolls of 1 in melee against that foe you want to destroy.

Edited October 18, 2021 by Medjugorje

[BitsHammer]

I really see no matchup where Abhor the Witch would be better than even picking any of the other three randomly. We might be talking if those 3" lasted the whole game. But just one turn and then have a Lieutenant aura that you can get in abundance from other places? No thanks. And we aren't even talking about the Passion for this Vow. Not being able to do actions within 18" is pretty dire.

Only dire if you take action secondaries.

[Tokugawa]

GK and TSons have tons of high AP attacks. Against them, uphold is still much better than abhor.

[9x19 Parabellum]

For me AAC and Suffer Not are simply rejected on their face.  Any debuff (Passion) which allows my opponent to control my movement and planning is akin to an entire busload of referees throwing penalty flags all over the place.  The fact that the Vow buff not only doesn't outweigh the buff, but is measurably worse than it....yeah. No. I will never take these 2 Vows.  They only have to fail once for you to lose a game.  In fact, they don't even have to lose you a game....the threat they pose in providing opponent's opportunities, and the confidence that threat will sap from you is not worth it.  They *will* cost you games.  They are worse that not having a superdoctrine at all.

 

Of the remaining two, Uphold is considerably and universally stronger than Abhor. There MIGHT be some fringe cases where I take Abhor.  The 3" move could be worth it, and the debuff is not nearly as bad as Uphold.  I often don't have points for a Lt/Castellan in my lists, so a little help rerolling wounds against psykers isn't entirely useless either. 

 

Looking back on my earlier negativity, where the first 2 Vows that had been spoiled were AAC and Suffer Not, I make no apologies for my criticism.  They really are bad.  The codex on a whole is good, though.

[Medjugorje]

Everything i played so far what had a really impact on the game:

 

- 5++ and max wound on 3s

- minus 1 damage relic bearer in combination with feast of blades winner stratagem which can be brought back by a Selfless healer.

- 5+++ litany

- 6+++ by Grimaldus and the selfless healer

 

everything else is just a gimmick 

 

what I am not sure yet is the Primaris crusadersquad. In existing meta Admech have the perfect answers against it. But I played them just in one game as 10 man squad and I used them in my backfield. (Retroperspective - i should have played very different)

[Tokugawa]

Are there any matchup you don't want to take uphold? Against an opponent with few to none high-AP attacks, but still a playable army?

 

The only thing I could imagine is Terminus Est. 0% long range shooting but playable army.

[Medjugorje]

The problem is in tournament #(or maybe in general) you will build your list with the VOW in mind. Even Terminus Est have a few higher AP weapons - look what they do in melee. And the reroll 1s you will have just against that on or two psykers. 3" movement is a missguide because its just in first turn. Especially against Terminus Est your passion on AAC or SUFFER can cost you whole units. 

[BitsHammer]

Are there any matchup you don't want to take uphold? Against an opponent with few to none high-AP attacks, but still a playable army?

 

The only thing I could imagine is Terminus Est. 0% long range shooting but playable army.

Nids maybe?

[tvih]

I was just playing around on BattleScribe and looking at things... CF was supposed to be my "tournament army" marine-wise, but until they get a new supplement it seems that the BT supplement is likely more suited to the task. There'd be a local tournament in a month, but with no idea when in November the rest of our models are releasing I'm not sure if it makes sense to go BT for it. Given the uncertainties might just go with Sisters for now, by far the least amount of painting needed to get a suitable list if nothing else :P But as far as the marines it again puts my plans somewhat into disarray painting-wise. I really need to find a way to stop obsessing about the "wrongness" of using mixed paint scheme models acting as a unified army...

[Medjugorje]

 

Are there any matchup you don't want to take uphold? Against an opponent with few to none high-AP attacks, but still a playable army?

 

The only thing I could imagine is Terminus Est. 0% long range shooting but playable army.

Nids maybe?

 

If he plays mass infantry then there will be Genestealers in it and at least some Genestealer characters. But most of the time nids is a shooting army with lots of ap3