my honest opinion

[tvih]

Yeah... I like the Impulsor well enough, even if it's not as iconic, but it'd be so nice to be able to use the old transports with Primaris - hell, even if they took two slots instead of one. Such a ridiculous restriction, especially for the bigger ones like Land Raiders or even the Spartan. I reckon most old players who want Repulsor/Impulsor already have 'em, and new players would need to buy the old transports just as much as the new ones, so even pushing sales isn't much of an excuse anymore. Myself I just have the one Impulsor... and well, the Repulsor Executioner in CF colors, but I don't plan on a normal Repulsor.

 

It's such a bummer when trying to include firstborn infantry too though. Like Crusader squads, now that they hiked the price back up. Why take an Initiate with Boltgun for 18 points when you can have Primaris Intercessor with Auto Bolt Gun for 20, gaining a melee attack and 1-2 additional ranged shots of equal strength? Weapon options don't really help that much because they have their own cost. I really wasn't supposed to replace firstborn, but outside of some vehicles and things like Vanguard Vets they're hard to justify even for casual games (and outside of rules of course the Primaris infantry just looks better than most firstborn, so it's kinda 2-0 for Primaris). Gotta get my Vindicator siege shield finished though, I wanna plow through some heretics and xenos...

 

But overall, I'm having a bit of a hard time with lists as well. Part of it is the general marine issue of "add two units and oooops, list is 2k already", part of it is indeed matters of transport and synergy. But if I stick to my plan of only playing with painted models, it'll take quite some time 'til I can field a sensible Black Templar army without CF loaners due to the infantry issue.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The transport size restrictions no longer makes sense regarding less space for Primaris in their respective vehicles now that firstborn have two wounds per model. That and they took fly away for no given reason are just a slap in the face AFAIC.

[Marshal Reinhard]

I have so many problems with that I don't know where to begin.

 

Saying its a size difference thing is basically admitting that classic marines are small and stunty. This should only apply to the old models and not the lore itself. Granted in the mixed artwork we do have, primaris tend to be a little taller, so i guess I have to accept it made its way into the lore, no matter how dumb i find it.

 

what in warp does wound size have to do with size though?

 

Let's just forget all of this, point me to where GW stated the restrictions on vehicles was due to marine size. (don't bother, no in lore reason or justification for it, stop rationalizing it as if there was)

[Medjugorje]

I have  not  a solution for that problem. That is in GWs hands. But we are able to make the Impulsor iconic. Let all foes show that we are the armored spearhead !!!

[Charlo]

I have  not  a solution for that problem. That is in GWs hands. But we are able to make the Impulsor iconic. Let all foes show that we are the armored spearhead !!!

 

HELL YEAH

[Lord Blackwood]

Initially I was a bit skeptical of the new tanks as well. 

Then I built a few of them , and I  quite like them now , especially the impulsor in our army , with access  to a multi melta to punch holes in  things. 

I also have been sour on anything I cant fit into a list because its grossly overcosted / poorly slotted ( Land Raiders for like 3 editions now) 

[Kilamandaros]

Problem is, even if I did like the Impulsor, it's not a replacement for the LRC or even the Rhino...it carries 6 marines. All it can be described as is a replacement for the Razorback.

 

If you want 10 then you need the Repulsor and then you're paying Land Raider points anyway.

 

GW must realise that the transport options for Primaris are super limited, perhaps they will eventually bring out Primaris drop pods, land raiders and Storm Ravens but currently I have absolutely zero inclination to upgrade my army.

[Mandragola]

 

Stuff like this makes me really question the design studio. Do they have any clue about their game? Does this stuff get tested at all? 

Yes to both counts. Remember though they're living at least 18 months to 2 years ahead of us.

Huh? Where's the evidence for this and how does it make sense relative to the other books they're publishing at the moment?

 

When were they living when they wrote the rules for my Crimson Fists, and when were they living when they nerfed them into the ground a few months later? Surely if they were living 18 months ahead they could have foreseen that they'd be releasing broken rules and done something about it.

 

On the subject of vows, can you theorise about something that could make suffer not the unclean to live - auto-wounding on a 6 to hit and a crippling passion - comparable with an army-wide 5++? I can't. When you get a set of rules published on one double-page spread in the same codex and they're hopelessly imbalanced relative to each other, I see incompetence, not time-travelling 3D chess. 

 

Maybe you're right and they're publishing rules that will make sense in 13th edition in 9 years' time. If so I wish they wouldn't, and would instead publish rules that made sense today.

[tvih]

Yeah, it's not really accurate to say they live that far ahead... I mean, they should know things like release order and schedule - not that there can't be changes to those down the line, as there has been - and then there's the model designs, but it's not like the Codex contents and their rules are locked in 18-24 months prior to them releasing. Or a new edition's core rules, for that matter.

 

But yes, the designers just unfortunately aren't very good in many aspects. The core rules themselves are still literally flawed to the core. If the game itself was even a half as good as the models are these days, I'd be over the bloody moon.

Edited October 21, 2021 by tvih

[Marshal Loss]

The main issue with GW's rules writing is certainly not that they're "18 months to 2 years ahead". Don't forget that GW has told us on numerous occasions that all 9th edition books were written and playtested concurrently. This impacts their ability to foresee various combos, etc, as the meta can move in strange directions and the release schedule can be rather fluid and isn't necessarily controlled by the writers, but it isn't itself an impediment to the creation of a balanced book. There are two main problems with the current process:

1. Murky attitude towards the role of playtesters (e.g. changing Dark Lances to D3+3 damage after playtesters had submitted their feedback, per Tabletop Tactics), and we don't know how much rewriting is done after the conclusion of the playtesting process
2. Having a rules writing team that works on projects individually

#2 is key, and it's the main reason why there often appears to be little consistency between releases. There's no guarantee that the same person who wrote Codex: Death Guard wrote/was on the writing team for Codex: Necrons, and so on, and we don't know if every playtesting group gets access to every book, etc. Because GW appears to have/has switched to a system where every army gets a new codex every edition, that's what they need to do, because otherwise it would be simply impossible to get everything done, and we're paying the price for that. You see similar issues in AOS where books often have vastly different power levels. 40k is in a much better spot comparatively, I think, because apart from a handful of outliers almost all of the 9th ed books are very similar in strength (imo). And it's not like past editions had perfect balance either, even when codex writing was a more team-based affair than it is now.

 

That little ramble aside, I don't have a good explanation for how a designer can look at our Vows and think they're all equally useful. This kind of thing isn't unusual, though - how many times have we seen a book where 3 out of 6 WL traits are absolute garbage, 2 are decent and 1 is an auto-take? How many times have we seen relics so obviously bad they're just never going to be used?

 

Sometimes writers put things in just to be fluffy, sometimes they play it safe for reasons we can only guess at. A lot of this supplement - which I really love - feels like a little bit of both to me.

[Palmu]

If you take a look at...Basically any other tabletop wargame, especially any indie wargame, the sheer difference in level quickly becomes apparent, and not favorably to GW designers. I don't blame them for it, though. I doubt working in such a mercilessly corporate environment does much to engender actual creativity or imagination these days, so many things just get punched in.

[Cryptshadow]

My only disappointment in the book so far doesn't come from how powerful or weak the rules are - I'm mainly interested in narrative/casual mp so that's fairly irrelevant - it's a problem that derives from the whole Primaris debacle itself. I love the new models, I got the starter box and was hyped for getting all the other releases...but then I started tinkering with lists and unit compositions and kept coming back to wanting to just include firstborn.

 

Why? Transports. I love my LRC, my Stormraven and turn 1 drop pod assaults. Impulsors and Repulsors don't feel like they belong in my army and I don't like the models. Therefore I'm left having to footslog if I want to include the new models and even worse, I've lost the ability to include in transports the character my firstborn army was always based around - Grimaldus. I have him and his command squad lovingly recreated from Helsreach and now they're unable to venture into battle together unless I can agree to some kind of legends match.

 

I fully get that GW have imposed the separation of Primaris to sell their shiny new tanks and transports but in my case it's totally putting me off altogether. I'm on the verge of selling all the Primaris stuff from the box apart from the beautiful codex and being one of those grumpy firstborn players. I really don't want to be, I love the models and would happily replace all my dwarf marines, but I love the older vehicles so much more. I would actually take them getting rid of firstborn marines altogether if it meant Primaris could sit in an LRC/Stormraven etc. but I think we all know how likely that is.

 

Sucks!

i get the LRC but not the storm raven myself lol. but just proxy the LRC as a repulsor, put it on the same base and play with your friends and no one is gonna say anything, and maybe one day they will just release primaris drop pods. 

[Charlo]

If you take a look at...Basically any other tabletop wargame, especially any indie wargame, the sheer difference in level quickly becomes apparent, and not favorably to GW designers. I don't blame them for it, though. I doubt working in such a mercilessly corporate environment does much to engender actual creativity or imagination these days, so many things just get punched in.

 

Got a specific example of one that is a higher quality?

[Palmu]

Beyond the Gates of Antares if you want a scifi game, Frostgrave (more skirmish-based) if you're into Fantasy.

 

Warhammer armies project if you want to see a SINGLE MAN fix all of warhammer fantasy 8th edition where an entire team could only screw it up.

[Mandragola]

 

If you take a look at...Basically any other tabletop wargame, especially any indie wargame, the sheer difference in level quickly becomes apparent, and not favorably to GW designers. I don't blame them for it, though. I doubt working in such a mercilessly corporate environment does much to engender actual creativity or imagination these days, so many things just get punched in.

 

Got a specific example of one that is a higher quality?

 

My favourite GW game right now is Adeptus Titanicus. It's got a great mixture of excellent models and great gameplay that feels exactly as it should. Check out the AT section on this forum (in other games) if interested.

 

I've also quite enjoyed bolt action, which is a WW2 historical thing. It's very different to use real life stuff. The hobby side is focused on realism rather than the showy stuff you get with sci-fi.

 

Something both these games share is a turn sequence where you activate units at a time, rather than your whole army. So in AT one player activates a titan and then the other one does, first to move everything and then to shoot. In BA you draw dice at random from a bag to decide who'll do a unit's whole turn, meaning you don't know who's going to get to activate next.

 

I think 40k's key weakness as a game is that you can do such a lot in your turn before your opponent can respond, often deleting really large amounts of stuff and crippling an army. Few other games use the IGOUGO system, for this reason.

 

Thing is, nothing has the size of community that 40k has. It's the game you can always find an opponent for, anywhere. 

[tvih]

 

I think 40k's key weakness as a game is that you can do such a lot in your turn before your opponent can respond, often deleting really large amounts of stuff and crippling an army. Few other games use the IGOUGO system, for this reason.

Yeah, and their ineptitude shows in that rather than try to fix it they've just leaned into it with ever-escalating firepower. The problem was nowhere near as bad in 6th edition when I started, but in 8th a good example was playing in a tournament where one battle was losing 1/3 of my army per turn without there being anything I could do to prevent it.... I hid as best as I could during deployment, but with several flyers and LOS-ignoring heavy weapons and other fast-moving things a third of my army was still dead before I could do anything. Good luck recovering from that.

 

They also specifically keep creating annoying "meta" things. Like mortal wounds are the :cuss, and every new codex gets ways to do more of 'em so clearly it's a concerted effort (granted, everyone has to get 'em now because otherwise they suffer from being left out). And it's a particularly stupid mechanic but nooo, let's make it THE thing. Great.

[9x19 Parabellum]

Yep, honestly the prevalance of mortal wounds is my biggest issue with 9th edition.  So a plasma pistol "getting hot" instantly slays you....a Dreadnought exploding next to you does unmitigateable damage, but a direct hit from a volcano cannon on a Shadowsword...that can be deflected by a rosarius? 

 

<shrug> okiedokie

 

If I were the imperium, I'd never make a Baneblade.  I'd just make a :cussload of crappy plasma pistols, set them to overcharge and lob them at your opponent like grenades.

[Lord Blackwood]

Yep, honestly the prevalance of mortal wounds is my biggest issue with 9th edition.  So a plasma pistol "getting hot" instantly slays you....a Dreadnought exploding next to you does unmitigateable damage, but a direct hit from a volcano cannon on a Shadowsword...that can be deflected by a rosarius? 

 

<shrug> okiedokie

 

If I were the imperium, I'd never make a Baneblade.  I'd just make a :cussload of crappy plasma pistols, set them to overcharge and lob them at your opponent like grenades.

Come now , you  dont think plasma weapons are drop safe ? 

 

( I am joking I am pretty sure no  firearm in 40k is drop safe.) 

[tvih]

 

I'd just make a :cussload of crappy plasma pistols, set them to overcharge and lob them at your opponent like grenades.

Yeah, the rest of the Imperium should learn from Sister Superior Miriya. But yeah, one of the stupidest things about mortals aside from balance is that they often come from nonsensical sources.

[Urkh]

If I were the imperium, I'd never make a Baneblade. I'd just make a :cussload of crappy plasma pistols, set them to overcharge and lob them at your opponent like grenades.

Just remember to unchained it from your wrist first!

[Kastor Krieg]

 

If I were the imperium, I'd never make a Baneblade. I'd just make a :cussload of crappy plasma pistols, set them to overcharge and lob them at your opponent like grenades.

Just remember to unchained it from your wrist first!

Or don't and you've just invented a plasma flail!

[Urkh]

 

 

 

If I were the imperium, I'd never make a Baneblade. I'd just make a :cussload of crappy plasma pistols, set them to overcharge and lob them at your opponent like grenades.

Just remember to unchained it from your wrist first!

Or don't and you've just invented a plasma flail!

Ok, now we're talking!

[tvih]

 

 

Just remember to unchained it from your wrist first!

Or don't and you've just invented a plasma flail!

 

Didn't Grimaldus bitchslap some orks with his chained plasma pistol in Helsreach after it ran out of power? Though in this case at least it wasn't exploding :D

[BitsHammer]

 

 

I'd just make a :cussload of crappy plasma pistols, set them to overcharge and lob them at your opponent like grenades.

Yeah, the rest of the Imperium should learn from Sister Superior Miriya. But yeah, one of the stupidest things about mortals aside from balance is that they often come from nonsensical sources.

 

Can't throw your pistol if it's chained to you.

[Kilamandaros]

 

 

My only disappointment in the book so far doesn't come from how powerful or weak the rules are - I'm mainly interested in narrative/casual mp so that's fairly irrelevant - it's a problem that derives from the whole Primaris debacle itself. I love the new models, I got the starter box and was hyped for getting all the other releases...but then I started tinkering with lists and unit compositions and kept coming back to wanting to just include firstborn.

 

Why? Transports. I love my LRC, my Stormraven and turn 1 drop pod assaults. Impulsors and Repulsors don't feel like they belong in my army and I don't like the models. Therefore I'm left having to footslog if I want to include the new models and even worse, I've lost the ability to include in transports the character my firstborn army was always based around - Grimaldus. I have him and his command squad lovingly recreated from Helsreach and now they're unable to venture into battle together unless I can agree to some kind of legends match.

 

I fully get that GW have imposed the separation of Primaris to sell their shiny new tanks and transports but in my case it's totally putting me off altogether. I'm on the verge of selling all the Primaris stuff from the box apart from the beautiful codex and being one of those grumpy firstborn players. I really don't want to be, I love the models and would happily replace all my dwarf marines, but I love the older vehicles so much more. I would actually take them getting rid of firstborn marines altogether if it meant Primaris could sit in an LRC/Stormraven etc. but I think we all know how likely that is.

 

Sucks!

i get the LRC but not the storm raven myself lol. but just proxy the LRC as a repulsor, put it on the same base and play with your friends and no one is gonna say anything, and maybe one day they will just release primaris drop pods.

What's not to love about dropping an Ironclad and 12 angry marines off in your opponent's backlines?

 

And maybe house ruling might be an option if you just play with the same group of friends who are lenient, not really an option for lgs play and Crusade campaigns where you're playing different people all the time unfortunately.