my honest opinion

[Medjugorje]

I see a lot of great things… the vow for universal 5++ and mini Transhuman is nothing to sneeze at imo. The game is all about stacking buffs -> this supplement allows you to do so.

But makes that strong rule my army cool?

 

 

Its like a Tau player in concerned that each other Shooty army is stronger but while being on S-Tier level because a new melee squad which is absolutely inasne OP.

 

For me  - I feel like that.

[Palmu]

I can see a paradigm shift on a design level being attempted here. If WS were the fast bike melee army, BA the fast jump-pack melee army, BT was the fast footslogger melee army. But it looks like the fast portion got neutered and changed into tough foorslogger melee army instead.

 

Personally I think we're being steered towards being Ork Marines, with a heavy focus on numbers over quality.

 

Problem is though, that our best rules are actually better for a shooty vehicle-heavy army, which is a pretty big oversight from GW. Heck, even the VOWS are all either equally good or just BETTER with a shooty BT army.

 

AAC doesn't trigger on charges - Better at taking charges or in protracted fights.

Abhor is basically just a movement boost, great for repositioning. Suffer Not is straight better for counter-charging rather than looking for charges due to the Passion, and Uphold is just superb in general.

 

So not only was the army's focus of melee changed into a very different focus, we're looking at the possibility of the army being better for shooting and countercharging than looking for fights. That's pretty wild, and probably not quite what GW expected.

 

So if you liked going F A S T, it's gonna suck. If you liked footslogging it up or going mechanized assault, the changes are favorable.

 

But whoever looked for fast melee from BT was in the wrong ballpark to begin with.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Blood Angels and Dark Angels are they considered top tier though ?

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Believe it or not there are some WS players that don’t like their rules much… yes it’s actually true.

 

Yeah I'm sure there are. I used to play against a WS player who loved obsec bikers and I'm sure he trade some rules to get it. I also don't think he would see the rules as weak. Its two separate discussions.

 

For example the HI part of the space wolves chapter is strong, but I hate using it because with the stratagem it feels like a gotcha rule. I don't really like it, and I won't use it against most opponents (if I'm up against a top tier list, than I'll be desperate enough lol). That said I can acknowledge its strong.

 

I see a lot of great things… the vow for universal 5++ and mini Transhuman is nothing to sneeze at imo. The game is all about stacking buffs -> this supplement allows you to do so.

 

I don't think Medjugorje has said these are bad though, doesn't come across as super impressed with them but not posting that the rules are terrible either. It just seems like Medjugorje would have preferred a lower power level with more finesse style abilities.

 

There isn't really anything wrong with that rules don't have to be liked because they're powerful, people can be disappointed if the rules don't fit their views on the chapter.

[Medjugorje]

@Black Blow Fly  - no. BA are very bad at the moment. I think old BT used to be the only positive winrate  #(over 50percent) in 40k statcentre of all marine factions. BA are one of the worst. But there is not enough data I think and a lot of MArine players will skip in favour of the better MArines so that just hardcore fans (which are maybe not that competitive) stay on their armies.

 

BA is close to Imperial fists one of the worst chapters.

Edited October 11, 2021 by Medjugorje

[Urkh]

Well, our 4th edition dex does say we love armored spearheads. Tanks are just as much BT as footslogging. Whatever gets us there, right?

[Medjugorje]

Well, our 4th edition dex does say we love armored spearheads. Tanks are just as much BT as footslogging. Whatever gets us there, right?

 

This is correct. 

I dont think the flavour of our army is bad. Just the rules dont fit perfectly. Like you all said. Why is the one vow so much better then any else?

 

Why is the one rule so insignificant that you dont feel the difference on the table while a 5++ is pretty recognizable

Edited October 11, 2021 by Medjugorje

[Tokugawa]

New ork book makes very competitive shooting lists, and some variants of buggies is straightly broken.

 

But almost every orks player need to invest a lot to get models for that play style.

 

Are they happy to get a new book? Yeah.

 

Are they happy to the invest? I don't know.

[BitsHammer]

It’s too early to make any strong general statements.

Well unless that statement is "The Crusade is Eternal."

[BitsHammer]

I get where the Medjugorje is coming from. I'm a space wolf player but I really think the white scar rules fit wolves better than the ones I got. I think its just the nature of how we look at our chapters compared to how GW views them. I like Ragnar too much to ditch the rules and honestly I've had fun with them, but I'd rather have advance and charge over +1 to hit and/or HI. I think its a fair opinion to have, Medjugorje wanted some more finesse abilities, and GW went for overall durability.

 

I really think the amount of rules we have available makes it harder to be content with your fraction. My advice for Medjugorje would be to play around with Templars, and just give them a fair shot.

Templars have always had one defining trait as their core: flexibility. They weren't the fastest, nor the hardest hitting, nor the toughest but their core troops could be tooled up for a number different roles easilly allowing them to always be relevant in any list.

 

Likewise our Vows are flexible and our stratgems are flexible. We aren't gamey but we have a wide range of tools between the supplement and the codex that allow us to get in the opponent's face and crush them under our boots through well executed zeal.

 

Black Templars should never be blitzing Berserker, or the implacable fortress. They are questing knights seeking out worthy foes and utterly destroying them and moving on to the next target. Or they die trying.

 

Let us not confuse zeal for berserk fury, and confuse tactical flexibility with adherance to inflexible combat doctrines.

[BitsHammer]

 

 

 

 

I remember this being said about Grey Knights and Orks and they just placed 1st and 3rd in my states Grand Tournament. You're entitled to an opinion, but be open to the idea you might be wrong too, at least when it comes to how competitive they are. I can't say right or wrong about how they feel to play to you.

but he have the same opinion then me. And he plays very good and competitive. AND like i said. I see me as a very experienced competitive player. I think its not conicidence

Nah, there are a lot of competetive players who are very positive on this book. Sure you found one negative person but that isn't that special.

a long time i was (and i think still be) the best BT player in germany. It sounds sooo arrogant - but hey... there is a competitve gamer who wins all tournaments at the moment. art of war killing Everything right now. And they have exactly close to 1:1 the same opinion in every single thing.

 

I am not the best list writer - i know. But I am sitting here for hours with this book and the sm codex and try to make lists and nothing comes out which could be "my" personal flavour. And my personal flavour is reliable fast melee units.

And yet it is still an opinion and not a fact. How he feels is not the same as actually provong it through games. Let us see how our zealous brethren actually fair before throwing in the towel. Especially when he's operating in a meta dominated by Dark Eldar and Mechanicus builds and has his viewpoint filtered through that subjective lens.

[General Strike]

 

I get where the Medjugorje is coming from. I'm a space wolf player but I really think the white scar rules fit wolves better than the ones I got. I think its just the nature of how we look at our chapters compared to how GW views them. I like Ragnar too much to ditch the rules and honestly I've had fun with them, but I'd rather have advance and charge over +1 to hit and/or HI. I think its a fair opinion to have, Medjugorje wanted some more finesse abilities, and GW went for overall durability.

 

I really think the amount of rules we have available makes it harder to be content with your fraction. My advice for Medjugorje would be to play around with Templars, and just give them a fair shot.

Templars have always had one defining trait as their core: flexibility. They weren't the fastest, nor the hardest hitting, nor the toughest but their core troops could be tooled up for a number different roles easilly allowing them to always be relevant in any list.

 

Likewise our Vows are flexible and our stratgems are flexible. We aren't gamey but we have a wide range of tools between the supplement and the codex that allow us to get in the opponent's face and crush them under our boots through well executed zeal.

 

Black Templars should never be blitzing Berserker, or the implacable fortress. They are questing knights seeking out worthy foes and utterly destroying them and moving on to the next target. Or they die trying.

 

Let us not confuse zeal for berserk fury, and confuse tactical flexibility with adherance to inflexible combat doctrines.

I feel like you get it, Fulkes. I wanna read more of your thoughts on the Templars.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

Alright. Medjugorje wants a fast, hard-hitting Templar force that plays similarly to our Index. Let me see...

 

 

Step 1, take a Chaplain MS, either Grimaldus or one on a bike. Bite the bullet and take the Litany that lets you grant an unused vow to a unit in range. Take the 5++ vow army wide, then if your opponent is running any psychers drop the +3" vow on bikers or jump vets along with a second vow of your choice. +1 attacks might be a good one, as their survivability is already decent, especially if they have shields. You now have 15+ speed assault units with +1 attack that can throw themselves across the board for an easy enough charge which gets free rerolls. It isn't quite advance and charge, but it's close. Very close. If the 5++ feels redundant you could instead give your entire army +3" movement and drop the 6+ auto wound on your advance force, as you do get to choose after you've seen your opponent's force. Do that, Crusader Helm them, and you now have 3 out of 4 vows sitting on one unit.

 

In fact, between keeping that litany in your back pocket and choosing your vow at the start of the game, you can double dip 2 decent buffs and tool kit as needed, whether it's more AP on demand through instant assault doctrin, a burst of speed at the start of the game (potentially funny if you go full crazy and load terminators into a Land Raider, getting you 16" movement on assault terminators turn 1), or that mad durability that might even convince me to take said LR in a list. Maybe.

 

There are options to do what you're wanting, but you'll have to build toward them. It isn't the best thing the army does now, but it can do it. 

[BitsHammer]

 

 

I get where the Medjugorje is coming from. I'm a space wolf player but I really think the white scar rules fit wolves better than the ones I got. I think its just the nature of how we look at our chapters compared to how GW views them. I like Ragnar too much to ditch the rules and honestly I've had fun with them, but I'd rather have advance and charge over +1 to hit and/or HI. I think its a fair opinion to have, Medjugorje wanted some more finesse abilities, and GW went for overall durability.

 

I really think the amount of rules we have available makes it harder to be content with your fraction. My advice for Medjugorje would be to play around with Templars, and just give them a fair shot.

Templars have always had one defining trait as their core: flexibility. They weren't the fastest, nor the hardest hitting, nor the toughest but their core troops could be tooled up for a number different roles easilly allowing them to always be relevant in any list.

 

Likewise our Vows are flexible and our stratgems are flexible. We aren't gamey but we have a wide range of tools between the supplement and the codex that allow us to get in the opponent's face and crush them under our boots through well executed zeal.

 

Black Templars should never be blitzing Berserker, or the implacable fortress. They are questing knights seeking out worthy foes and utterly destroying them and moving on to the next target. Or they die trying.

 

Let us not confuse zeal for berserk fury, and confuse tactical flexibility with adherance to inflexible combat doctrines.

I feel like you get it, Fulkes. I wanna read more of your thoughts on the Templars.

 

To me the Black Templars are knights united not by blood, or organizational structure but shared beliefs. They are zealous in their mindset because they are utterly sure of their decisions and are willing to put their lives on the line proving their beliefs to be true. They don't think they are correct, they know they are correct. 

 

It's this mindset that allows them to flexibly work in unison to tackle any threat, to commit so utterly to a vow that they'll see it through or die trying (represented by the passions of our vows) even if it's disadvantageous to do so. They have decided to do something and will gladly die in order to accomplish it.

 

This is not to claim they are blinded by their zeal, as they will still use all the tools of the Imperium available to them in order to fulfill their vows.

 

Basically a Templar army is built towards accomplishing their missions and their secondaries, but should be designed as a TAC list that can flex into all four of their vows based on the mission, table, and enemy they face. It's not an army well suited for standing around taking actions on objectives, but rather for pushing forward, seizing ground from the foe and then pushing foward again. It's not an army that hit and runs, instead it relentlessly pushes foward. It's not an army that castles up and passively holds ground, it seeks out the foe and takes ground from them. It's not an army that rushes foward in a blind fury, but one that crushes the foe under with consistent pressure.

 

I once described the Imperial Fists intended playstyle as like peeling an onion, where they peel off transports, soften enemy units under withering firepower before crushing the remains with a heavy fist. Templars are not like the other Sons of Dorn in that they do not follow a regimented approach, but instead use a variety of means to apply consistent pressure on the enemy. They can press forward early against the witch, and punish the witch in close combat. They can weather heavy firepower designed to break Astartes and grind the opponent down. They can ignore the doctrine and flex into the Assault Doctrine on any turn they need to allowing the rest of the army to continue engaging the foe with bolter while they employ blade. They can engage with tough foes and monsters by forcing wounds through well disciplined strikes, forcing enemies who depend on their hardened exteriors to melt under the weight of their blades.

 

Wolves may fight as defensive packs, Blood Angels as hammers falling from the sky, and White Scars the blitzing riders the Templars are a gauntleted hand gripping tight on the hilt of a sword as it turns away the opponent's strongest strikes and drives it home through skill and constant pressure.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The loss of the strat to advance and charge I just can’t see as a huge nerf to BT. Sure if it was a super doctrine then alright, but it’s only one unit that could benefit.

[BitsHammer]

 

Well, our 4th edition dex does say we love armored spearheads. Tanks are just as much BT as footslogging. Whatever gets us there, right?

 

This is correct. 

I dont think the flavour of our army is bad. Just the rules dont fit perfectly. Like you all said. Why is the one vow so much better then any else?

 

Why is the one rule so insignificant that you dont feel the difference on the table while a 5++ is pretty recognizable

 

The issue is less the vow and more the way vehicles behave in this edition. Many transports used to be cheap because they were expendable, but as they became more expensive but didn't gain in durability (arguably even becoming weaker to a wider range of weaponry) it's opened players up to seeking ways to make their vehicles harder to crack in order to get more out of that increased points cost.

 

Plus durability has always been highly valued. This is why FnP in the past was held in such high importance. In 9th edition Invulnerable saves are the new FnP.

[BitsHammer]

The loss of the strat to advance and charge I just can’t see as a huge nerf to BT. Sure if it was a super doctrine then alright, but it’s only one unit that could benefit.

Plus the game board is smaller than it was in 8th making it less needed in order to engage the enemy army. It was clearly pulled to try and limit alpha strikes in the smaller table size. If White Scars were updated in 9th edition it's likely that they'd lose the ability as well in favor of something else to represent their preferred way of fighting.

[Tokugawa]

Shortest sentence to summarize style of Black Temlars:

 

"black orks"

 

Most of times ork emphasis on melee more, but never abandoned shooting, mobility and flexibility.

[+Chaplain Matthias+]

Man I can’t handle these threads. We got everything we wanted. And I thought we already had the most goodies out of every chapter aside from the ultramarines. Most pages of lore, most named characters, we even had our own unique troop and elite choice. And that was BEFORE this release! We’ve always had the best upgrade sprues and this time that hasn’t changed. No one else has their relics modeled out.

 

Every new thing in this update emphasizes the play style we want. Run up and hit things really hard, and never fall back.

 

Are we THE VERY BEST army now? I actually have no clue. Probably not. I don’t think about it.

 

I also don’t think about how this little rule or that little rule might encourage or discourage me from running my guys on foot to the middle of the board to hit stuff really hard. I just do it. You already said you don’t play super competitive. You can play the way you want! :D you don’t need permission from the meta.

[BitsHammer]

Man I can’t handle these threads. We got everything we wanted. And I thought we already had the most goodies out of every chapter aside from the ultramarines. Most pages of lore, most named characters, we even had our own unique troop and elite choice. And that was BEFORE this release! We’ve always had the best upgrade sprues and this time that hasn’t changed. No one else has their relics modeled out.

 

Every new thing in this update emphasizes the play style we want. Run up and hit things really hard, and never fall back.

 

Are we THE VERY BEST army now? I actually have no clue. Probably not. I don’t think about it.

 

I also don’t think about how this little rule or that little rule might encourage or discourage me from running my guys on foot to the middle of the board to hit stuff really hard. I just do it. You already said you don’t play super competitive. You can play the way you want! you don’t need permission from the meta.

Almost everything we wanted. I still want to put Primaris in Land Raider Crusaders, and it'd be really great if Sword Brethren wargear options opened up Intercessors SGTs of both flavors at least. Give me an excuse to buy more plastic crack for the Crusade GW!

[Tokugawa]

The loss of the strat to advance and charge I just can’t see as a huge nerf to BT. Sure if it was a super doctrine then alright, but it’s only one unit that could benefit.

It is a huge blow. Since usually previous 9th templars just could afford ~3 blobs of elite melee units, and one of them is termies which teleport, 1 unit getting advance charge is almost equal to "50% of your army get advance charge".

[MegaVolt87]

Dorn would be ashamed with all this complaining. BT look to run a solid MEQ TAC lists in competitive play, and everyone misses the one dimensional advance and charge? Talk about not being able to see the forest for the trees SMH. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

The loss of the strat to advance and charge I just can’t see as a huge nerf to BT. Sure if it was a super doctrine then alright, but it’s only one unit that could benefit.

It is a huge blow. Since usually previous 9th templars just could afford ~3 blobs of elite melee units, and one of them is termies which teleport, 1 unit getting advance charge is almost equal to "50% of your army get advance charge".

 

sure it’s a blow but I don’t think you can definitely say it cripples the army. I listened to the AoW podcast, Jack Harpster was the one doing all the crying (he came in 3rd place with BA at the GW Orlando GT) - seriously I don’t think he’s the top ranked ITC BT player… maybe BA though. Obviously speed is important for assault armies - maybe to play BT super competitively bring more armor and function more as a counter assault army… way too early to say for sure. Won’t need the dome for Impulsors now which will save some points.

Edited October 12, 2021 by Black Blow Fly

[Medjugorje]

but in general both said in a competitive setting we are not longer a melee army. We still have very strong counter abilites (thats for sure).... but hold down.

 

I have a tournament this weekend. In my thread i describe my new list which should be very good in this setting (although the missions are very different from chapter approved missions).

But 3 games could show us all great views what will work it what does not. I am very confident this list will surprise the one or other guy.

[BitsHammer]

but in general both said in a competitive setting we are not longer a melee army. We still have very strong counter abilites (thats for sure).... but hold down.

 

I have a tournament this weekend. In my thread i describe my new list which should be very good in this setting (although the missions are very different from chapter approved missions).

But 3 games could show us all great views what will work it what does not. I am very confident this list will surprise the one or other guy.

You keep trying to use an appeal to authority fallacy to go "well this ONE person who is a TOP PLAYER says they're not a melee army, so they're not a melee army" when everyone else is pointing out melee buffs and combos. They are not a FAST melee army, but they are a melee army. Maybe that means they're not an EFFECTIVE melee army at top tables in competitive play, but most people aren't trying to take first in a 600+ person tournament either. Don't use that measuring stick to define the army, it's a heavily skewed meta that optimizes the fun out of the game.