my honest opinion

[T14]

If nothing else, we can certainly field Melee Characters now

[BitsHammer]

If nothing else, we can certainly field Melee Characters now

We also have some of the best melee relics in the game. Burning Blade wishes it was as good as the Sword of Judgement.

[Marshall Bretton]

Deleted as not adding value and just a bit of a rant Edited October 12, 2021 by Gaius Maximus

[tvih]

 

If nothing else, we can certainly field Melee Characters now

We also have some of the best melee relics in the game. Burning Blade wishes it was as good as the Sword of Judgement.

 

Sons of Dorn indeed have some of the nicest relic melee weapons - love me some Fist of Vengeance :D And of course Fist of Terra isn't half bad either.

 

Though if I ever use the "official" bit for SoJ, I'll give it a sharp tip as I don't like blunt-tip swords.

[BitsHammer]

 

 

If nothing else, we can certainly field Melee Characters now

We also have some of the best melee relics in the game. Burning Blade wishes it was as good as the Sword of Judgement.

 

Sons of Dorn indeed have some of the nicest relic melee weapons - love me some Fist of Vengeance And of course Fist of Terra isn't half bad either.

 

Though if I ever use the "official" bit for SoJ, I'll give it a sharp tip as I don't like blunt-tip swords.

 

I dig the execution blade look, especially on something called the "Sword of Judgement". I want to put one on a Judiciar and give him that three eyed skill to make him feel more chapter appropiate.

[Marshal Reinhard]

While I have groaned a bit on Medjugorje bringing up this topic on many number of threads now, this is in fact the thread he himself started. Competetive play is what he plays and finds fun, and going on about how competetive removes fun is about as annoying for competetive players to hear as casuals think it is that it is be brought up constantly.

 

Tl'dr, we don't needto try and drive a wedge between casual and competetive players.

[Marshall Bretton]

Deleted because not adding value and just a bit of a rant Edited October 12, 2021 by Gaius Maximus

[BitsHammer]

While I have groaned a bit on Medjugorje bringing up this topic on many number of threads now, this is in fact the thread he himself started. Competetive play is what he plays and finds fun, and going on about how competetive removes fun is about as annoying for competetive players to hear as casuals think it is that it is be brought up constantly.

 

Tl'dr, we don't needto try and drive a wedge between casual and competetive players.

I definitely don't intend to drive a wedge, but rather try and highlight the differences and why the lens of competitive is very heavily skewed because I often see claims being made online based on the highly competitive meta as if it defines a universal truth instead of it being true only to a specific way of playing the game where people spend hundreds if not thousands of hours "solving" the competitive format.

 

Heck, I know I've fallen down that rabbit hole because the competitive meta is so heavily discussed online and in podcasts and things it's easy to forget how that doesn't always trickle down to your local scene. 

 

Basically everyone at this point, Art of War included, is guessing on how they think the army will perform because it hasn't been solved. It's different than how it was before. Templars are no longer a fast melee army, which means that part of what we need to think about is more than rushing in to crush the enemy on turn one or two. That means our lists need to be more balanced and less skewed, but we have a plethora of tools and abilities to buff our output when in melee which is why I so heavily disagree with the idea that we're not a melee army at all.

 

It takes time for competetive to "solve" an army. During the first week we have the rules and are still making hot takes is too soon to carve any claims into stone. 

[MarshalMittermeier]

DEVIL'S ADVOCATE:

 

med and others are not saying that "we are not a melee army because our melee is bad".

 

what they are actualy saying "we are not a FAST melee army, and fast melee army is the ONLY kind of melee that ever works in competitive".

 

 

i tend to agree with them. both statements are correct.

-the only kind of melee army that has ever worked in competitive is a fast one". this statement is true.

 

- we still fast, but not really fast, not a full forward rush melee army anymore". this is also a true statement.

 

the army CAN pack a melee punch, use melee to storm some objectives or countercharge. but we need to include more shooting than before. we are more of a tough army than a melee or shooting army.

 

I LIKE THIS. "too stubborn and anrgy to die"

[tvih]

As for the "fast" aspect - I'll admit I like fast in 40k. Playing Argent Shroud Sisters is fun because it allows you to be fast. Or Orks in suitable builds. Now, I didn't actually play any games with BT using the previous rules, as I believe the last battle I played with them was the day the campaign book with additional rules landed (which of course was older main codex and pre-9th, too), so I used the old ones... but advance and charge would've been nice, no doubt. Still, despite liking fast, with marines I've somehow always managed to use way too few of jump troops, and even less bikes. Using those going forward will still make for a decently fast list, even if not any faster than other marines are capable of. But certainly no slower than in the days of 6th Edition when I started playing.

 

 

I dig the execution blade look, especially on something called the "Sword of Judgement". I want to put one on a Judiciar and give him that three eyed skill to make him feel more chapter appropiate.

 

 

Maybe I'm old-fashioned but I prefer a good ol' axe for "executions." We and especially our leaders are supposed to be skilled swordsmen, not some berserker mindlessly whacking away at things. And that means the ability to stab/thrust, too :P

 

Which is not to say I have something against axes, axes are very cool, but if/when you want cleave things there's better things for it than a sword that can't even be used for thrusting! I've been thinking of reshaping said Judiciar's sword for the same reason, though at least it doesn't have the hooks which would offer some functionality but I don't like the look of.

[Banjulhu]

There is also a tendency for the idea of "Good melee marine" rules in competative 9th Ed only being viewed through the lens of "Rules that get the most out of Vanguard Vets with storm shields and lightning claws".

So things like uphold the honour of the emperor not doing as much for vanguard vets with shields will quickly get shoved into the rejection pile by some because it does not help in the current paradigm.

[9x19 Parabellum]

I've read the whole thread and I don't think anyone is being unpleasant here. Medj has stated his opinions, and why, and others have politely responded to him.  There's actually no problem here. Celebrate that.

 

Also don't assume anyone is 'ranting' or 'needs to chill out'.  I mostly agree with Medj's summary.  But I'm not screaming or ranting and raving. I'm actually pretty chill. I will buy and paint at least one of every new model. I will love them. I will play with them.  But I don't need to be (and I'm not a pyscho) by believing that in the final calculation, BT got weaker with this codex*

 

And there's a simple reason for that: they lost speed and they gained nothing in pure martial power.  (At best, they are sidegrades).  You can give me all the other minor nuanced examples you like, but they lost speed: they lost Devout Push speed, they lost Advance + Charge from Emperor's Will, and they lost the charge buff from Front Line Commander.   Coupled with the 8th - 9th edition nerf that changed our chapter tactic from 're-roll any or all dice on the charge' to 're-roll all dice'.  They lost speed.

 

So we lost speed. What did we get? Durability.  Enough durability to outlast the first 1 - 2 enemy shooting phases?  I'm not sure yet. Will a 400 pt. crusader squad with Littany of 5+ FnP, Transhuman, 5+ invuln and a tanky sword brethren with Heinmann be able to make it across the field in one piece and with enough models left to threaten the enemy?  How much fire can this realistically weather when you take into account enemy gun range, LoS, morale, etc. I'm not sure. I'm not doom and gloom on this, but neither am I hopeful.

 

One difference of opinion I have with others is that I actually like the newly attempted playstyle, whether it works or not. I like the idea that BT are not the "speedy across table" guys, but rather the "constant pressure" guys (as another poster suggested). I like this.  I'm just not sure if it's going to work as written.

 

 

 

 

 

*When I say that, I mean specifically with respect to anything resembling a Black Tide list.  I think reds+vehicles is potentially a very good army, just not thematic.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Sigh, 'Black tide' has never been a lore thematic list design. It just became very popular with the players. Mechanised lists however ARE thematic, and we may have got those back.

What we really need to be thematic is drop pods for all again. But that still eludes us.

[Marshall Bretton]

I've deleted my previous posts as they weren't helping the situation here and tbh I went on a bit of a rant so let's just leave it at that.

 

 

Personally I love the feel of the new army, I think we have some great thematic options to make a crusading force of Knights acting like Knights should, engaging the enemy, generally focussing on melee skill but also using other tactics and ranged weapons where appropriate and ultimately difficult to kill. I also think we can have some extremely tough combat characters outside of our named options.

 

In terms of losing speed? Maybe we have, I think the increase in durability is a decent trade off personally but that has always been my preference as armour save rolls hate me. I just miss being able to alpha strike with a full drop pod army right into the enemy deployment zone, it's a shame primaris for some reason aren't able to use arguably the most iconic method of deployment available to marines but never mind.

[BitsHammer]

DEVIL'S ADVOCATE:

 

med and others are not saying that "we are not a melee army because our melee is bad".

 

what they are actualy saying "we are not a FAST melee army, and fast melee army is the ONLY kind of melee that ever works in competitive".

 

 

i tend to agree with them. both statements are correct.

-the only kind of melee army that has ever worked in competitive is a fast one". this statement is true.

 

- we still fast, but not really fast, not a full forward rush melee army anymore". this is also a true statement.

 

the army CAN pack a melee punch, use melee to storm some objectives or countercharge. but we need to include more shooting than before. we are more of a tough army than a melee or shooting army.

 

I LIKE THIS. "too stubborn and anrgy to die"

That is a fair take and something I can agree with. Part of my problem is that they looked right at Grimaldus, said his advancing buff was bad because "you can't do anything". Really? In the army with Primaris Crusader squads who can pack all assault weapons and then still punch people to death thanks the the insane number of melee buff sources we have?

 

It feels like "fast" is being narrowly defined as "can turn 1 alpha strike in melee" and that's not a great take.

[BitsHammer]

Sigh, 'Black tide' has never been a lore thematic list design. It just became very popular with the players. Mechanised lists however ARE thematic, and we may have got those back.

What we really need to be thematic is drop pods for all again. But that still eludes us.

I don't know about that. Grimaldus brought 900 Templars with him to Helsreach but I don't recall much talk about him bringing tanks. Sounds like a Black Tide to me.

[tvih]

As far as the armor aspect - personally I like that a lot too! What seems great about the new book that it indeed helps with that approach as well. I like tanks and of course dreads, and I have a pile of both waiting to be used. While I the current meta will still require a lot of infantry, it's nice that throwing a LRC or something in there isn't necessarily an instant fail at least casually. I was never really into the Black Tide approach - not that I necessarily particularly dislike it in terms of gameplay mechanics, but aside from the painting effort it just didn't feel like BT to me - they're zealous, but not idiots, so they'd have more than just chainswords running around. I've always liked the variety that combined arms brings. As stated before, for the infantry my BT lists are planned to be CC oriented as compared to my shooty CF, but there'll certainly still be enough fire support elements in place.

[BitsHammer]

I’d argue that Black Templars were always closer to Space Wolves and Orks than White Scars or Blood Angels; meaning they rely on numbers and endurance to prevail rather than speed and ferocity. I think the new rule set accomplishes this well.

 

Templars have utilized armored elements for fire support and they still use bases of firepower to support their more zealous advances; I mean just look at the famous John Blanche artwork, they are defending in a last stand type of formation. You can make a perfectly viable and fluffy shooty Templar army as well as a horde of charging knights if you so choose, and everything in between.

 

Also, give the book time to breathe. It’s not even out for general consumption yet lol.

Arguably you can do both and build a primarilly shooting Tide that packs some Power Fists to smash anyone who lets you get too close.

 

We have new units, our characters have changed and everyone is still looking at how to make this army work.

 

That said, the more I think about it the worse I feel I'll hold is against Grey Knights and Thousand Sons since they push mortal wounds and low AP weapons as the bulk of their damage dealing. Against anything under AP 3 most things in the book still have a 5+ armour save and we have a FnP vs Mortals so the extra movement and rerolls in melee feel better for those occasional match ups.

[tvih]

 

I don't know about that. Grimaldus brought 900 Templars with him to Helsreach but I don't recall much talk about him bringing tanks. Sounds like a Black Tide to me.

Well, not exactly - granted it's been a while since I read it, but while Helbrecht brought 900+ Templars to Armageddon, most of them didn't go with Grimaldus to Helsreach - as I understand it he had basically the equivalent of a company. And no, he didn't have much in the way of Templar tanks (though they did have some for transport etc) - he had the Imperial Guard for that.

Edited October 12, 2021 by tvih

[BitsHammer]

 

 

I don't know about that. Grimaldus brought 900 Templars with him to Helsreach but I don't recall much talk about him bringing tanks. Sounds like a Black Tide to me.

Well, not exactly - granted it's been a while since I read it, but while Helbrecht brought 900+ Templars to Armageddon, most of them didn't go with Grimaldus to Helsreach - as I understand it he had basically the equivalent of a company. And no, he didn't have much in the way of Templar tanks (though they did have some for transport etc) - he had the Imperial Guard for that.

Still, Black Tide is canon. ;)

[Marshall Bretton]

 

 

I don't know about that. Grimaldus brought 900 Templars with him to Helsreach but I don't recall much talk about him bringing tanks. Sounds like a Black Tide to me.

Well, not exactly - granted it's been a while since I read it, but while Helbrecht brought 900+ Templars to Armageddon, most of them didn't go with Grimaldus to Helsreach - as I understand it he had basically the equivalent of a company. And no, he didn't have much in the way of Templar tanks (though they did have some for transport etc) - he had the Imperial Guard for that.

The helsreach crusade was 100 brothers, they also had 3 thunderhawks and at least 6 rhinos and 2 landraiders.

 

There is also a full sequence where they are mounted on bikes

[Medjugorje]

 

DEVIL'S ADVOCATE:

 

med and others are not saying that "we are not a melee army because our melee is bad".

 

what they are actualy saying "we are not a FAST melee army, and fast melee army is the ONLY kind of melee that ever works in competitive".

 

 

i tend to agree with them. both statements are correct.

-the only kind of melee army that has ever worked in competitive is a fast one". this statement is true.

 

- we still fast, but not really fast, not a full forward rush melee army anymore". this is also a true statement.

 

the army CAN pack a melee punch, use melee to storm some objectives or countercharge. but we need to include more shooting than before. we are more of a tough army than a melee or shooting army.

 

I LIKE THIS. "too stubborn and anrgy to die"

That is a fair take and something I can agree with. Part of my problem is that they looked right at Grimaldus, said his advancing buff was bad because "you can't do anything". Really? In the army with Primaris Crusader squads who can pack all assault weapons and then still punch people to death thanks the the insane number of melee buff sources we have?

 

It feels like "fast" is being narrowly defined as "can turn 1 alpha strike in melee" and that's not a great take.

 

the part about Grim was too fast written because i was "down" a bit. I already have a very different opinion on him now.

I like the way you are all arguing. I was really pissed how I was shut down in IN discord where all people marked me as a "hater"...

That was really Unfair. 

 

btw.. I was on a podcast (german) to talk about the new Supp. Whoever understand the language -- I will post the link when its on YT.

[Tokugawa]

 

 

DEVIL'S ADVOCATE:

 

med and others are not saying that "we are not a melee army because our melee is bad".

 

what they are actualy saying "we are not a FAST melee army, and fast melee army is the ONLY kind of melee that ever works in competitive".

 

 

i tend to agree with them. both statements are correct.

-the only kind of melee army that has ever worked in competitive is a fast one". this statement is true.

 

- we still fast, but not really fast, not a full forward rush melee army anymore". this is also a true statement.

 

the army CAN pack a melee punch, use melee to storm some objectives or countercharge. but we need to include more shooting than before. we are more of a tough army than a melee or shooting army.

 

I LIKE THIS. "too stubborn and anrgy to die"

That is a fair take and something I can agree with. Part of my problem is that they looked right at Grimaldus, said his advancing buff was bad because "you can't do anything". Really? In the army with Primaris Crusader squads who can pack all assault weapons and then still punch people to death thanks the the insane number of melee buff sources we have?

 

It feels like "fast" is being narrowly defined as "can turn 1 alpha strike in melee" and that's not a great take.

 

 

 

Druks is one of the fastest army. Fast transports help them to control boards, rush objectives, find firing positions, scoring VPs from secondaries. Which made them the most powerful in the game.

 

But, they don't do turn1 charge. They don't plan for that and don't really need that.

[BitsHammer]

 

 

DEVIL'S ADVOCATE:

 

med and others are not saying that "we are not a melee army because our melee is bad".

 

what they are actualy saying "we are not a FAST melee army, and fast melee army is the ONLY kind of melee that ever works in competitive".

 

 

i tend to agree with them. both statements are correct.

-the only kind of melee army that has ever worked in competitive is a fast one". this statement is true.

 

- we still fast, but not really fast, not a full forward rush melee army anymore". this is also a true statement.

 

the army CAN pack a melee punch, use melee to storm some objectives or countercharge. but we need to include more shooting than before. we are more of a tough army than a melee or shooting army.

 

I LIKE THIS. "too stubborn and anrgy to die"

That is a fair take and something I can agree with. Part of my problem is that they looked right at Grimaldus, said his advancing buff was bad because "you can't do anything". Really? In the army with Primaris Crusader squads who can pack all assault weapons and then still punch people to death thanks the the insane number of melee buff sources we have?

 

It feels like "fast" is being narrowly defined as "can turn 1 alpha strike in melee" and that's not a great take.

 

 

 

Druks is one of the fastest army. Fast transports help them to control boards, rush objectives, find firing positions, scoring VPs from secondaries. Which made them the most powerful in the game.

 

But, they don't do turn1 charge. They don't plan for that and don't really need that.

They aren't being played as a "melee" army though. At least not at the level being discussed. And they talked about board control but then act like Templars can't advance ever with multiple instances of "only 6" of movement" being mentioned.

 

Are they slower than Drukhari? Sure. They're also tougher and will be harder to shift off any point they get onto. Uphold is one of the most anti-Drukhari rules I've seen given to any army. Plus cover is less useful against high mobility armies anyways.

 

Looking back at Templars I'd argue that sure, they aren't a "melee" army in the sense that they aren't a super fast army that can just jump all over the table. They are however a combined arms army that not only does melee well, but can do protracted melee well which is great for dealing with units that try to bog you down anyways.

 

I think we need to shift from think we're a smash face army to one that brings a little of everything and supports the part that does the face smashing.

 

And if they want to let us claim objectives by running away while we hold all the points, that's fine too. I am perfectly happy claiming all the objectives and denying primary objectives.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

 

Sigh, 'Black tide' has never been a lore thematic list design. It just became very popular with the players. Mechanised lists however ARE thematic, and we may have got those back.

What we really need to be thematic is drop pods for all again. But that still eludes us.

I don't know about that. Grimaldus brought 900 Templars with him to Helsreach but I don't recall much talk about him bringing tanks. Sounds like a Black Tide to me.

That's about 9 times more Templars than Grimaldus had with him, you're confusing how many Helbrecht had in system with how many he left with Grim (And Helbrecht lied about how many he had at the outset):

 

"The Thunderhawks touched down on a landing pad that was clearly designed for freight use. Cranes moved and servitors droned out of their way as the gunships came down in a hovering shower of engine wash and heat shimmer. Ramps clanged onto the landing pad’s surface and the four gunships disgorged their living cargo – one hundred knights in orderly ranks, marching into formation before their Thunderhawks."

 

The source for the preferred types of warfare is the Codex itself. Steel Rain and Armoured Fist.

Edited October 12, 2021 by Brother Adelard