my honest opinion

[BitsHammer]

You figure out how to get Primaris in Drop Pods then we can talk about Steel Rain.

 

Primaris and Armoured Fist don't really mesh well either unless you like MSU.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

We need something between the Impulsor and the Repulsor really. More transport capacity at lower cost.

[BitsHammer]

We need something between the Impulsor and the Repulsor really. More transport capacity at lower cost.

Like a less up-gunned Repulsor. Maybe it could just have the door guns and a little weapon in exchange for carrying 10 models at a much lower cost.

 

The again transports in general feel too expensive in this edition.

 

I get why points for them went up, but they needed to gain some kind of protective measure (like -1 damage or an invul) to feel worth giving up so much to bring.

Edited October 12, 2021 by Fulkes

[Marshall Bretton]

Also regarding helsreach it would have been tactical idiocy for them to deploy with loads of tanks, they are a total liability in an urban environment without significant infantry support. They relied on air assets, jump packs and fast vehicles like bikes to give them the mobility to operate in the hive effectively.

 

Whilst I appreciate that we have limited other sources, using the helsreach crusade to say templars never use armour is a mistake. The ash wastes crusade relied heavily on vehicles but the books covering that have been out of print for a very long time

[General Strike]

 

We need something between the Impulsor and the Repulsor really. More transport capacity at lower cost.

Like a less up-gunned Repulsor. Maybe it could just have the door guns and a little weapon in exchange for carrying 10 models at a much lower cost.

 

The again transports in general feel too expensive in this edition.

 

I get why points for them went up, but they needed to gain some kind of protective measure (like -1 damage or an invul) to feel worth giving up so much to bring.

Especially for us, the issue of buy an expensive transport to get popped in one turn or just buy more bodies that will die but might do more for you than the transport would. We have the benefit of essentially treating the extra bodies in a crusader squad as protective wounds, and will get more useful mileage out of 8 bolt carbine/shotgun shots or chainswords than the impulsor that pops without doing anything but moving. That's why I'm weirdly tempted by a auto boltrifle crusader squad or two. Leave the close combat to BVG, Aggressors, Sword Brothers and have my Crusaders be big close range shooting squads.

[9x19 Parabellum]

 

We need something between the Impulsor and the Repulsor really. More transport capacity at lower cost.

Like a less up-gunned Repulsor. Maybe it could just have the door guns and a little weapon in exchange for carrying 10 models at a much lower cost.

 

The again transports in general feel too expensive in this edition.

 

I get why points for them went up, but they needed to gain some kind of protective measure (like -1 damage or an invul) to feel worth giving up so much to bring.

 

 

We've had primaris for 4 years now. If we haven't gotten a no-gun primaris rhino, proper, yet, we aren't getting one.

[BitsHammer]

 

 

We need something between the Impulsor and the Repulsor really. More transport capacity at lower cost.

Like a less up-gunned Repulsor. Maybe it could just have the door guns and a little weapon in exchange for carrying 10 models at a much lower cost.

 

The again transports in general feel too expensive in this edition.

 

I get why points for them went up, but they needed to gain some kind of protective measure (like -1 damage or an invul) to feel worth giving up so much to bring.

Especially for us, the issue of buy an expensive transport to get popped in one turn or just buy more bodies that will die but might do more for you than the transport would. We have the benefit of essentially treating the extra bodies in a crusader squad as protective wounds, and will get more useful mileage out of 8 bolt carbine/shotgun shots or chainswords than the impulsor that pops without doing anything but moving. That's why I'm weirdly tempted by a auto boltrifle crusader squad or two. Leave the close combat to BVG, Aggressors, Sword Brothers and have my Crusaders be big close range shooting squads.

Honestly wouldn't be the first time Crusade Squads used "Ablative Neophytes" to be functional.

 

 

 

We need something between the Impulsor and the Repulsor really. More transport capacity at lower cost.

Like a less up-gunned Repulsor. Maybe it could just have the door guns and a little weapon in exchange for carrying 10 models at a much lower cost.

 

The again transports in general feel too expensive in this edition.

 

I get why points for them went up, but they needed to gain some kind of protective measure (like -1 damage or an invul) to feel worth giving up so much to bring.

We've had primaris for 4 years now. If we haven't gotten a no-gun primaris rhino, proper, yet, we aren't getting one.

First Primaris came out 5 years ago as part of Gathering Storm.

 

And never say never. GW will always find some way to sell us a new kit.

Edited October 12, 2021 by Fulkes

[Marshall Bretton]

 

 

 

We need something between the Impulsor and the Repulsor really. More transport capacity at lower cost.

Like a less up-gunned Repulsor. Maybe it could just have the door guns and a little weapon in exchange for carrying 10 models at a much lower cost.

 

The again transports in general feel too expensive in this edition.

 

I get why points for them went up, but they needed to gain some kind of protective measure (like -1 damage or an invul) to feel worth giving up so much to bring.

We've had primaris for 4 years now. If we haven't gotten a no-gun primaris rhino, proper, yet, we aren't getting one.

Given we have only just got melee primaris this year there is definitely still alot of scope for more releases, especially as they will eventually be phasing mini marines out into the hh setting only

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Stretch Impulsor. That's the boy.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

 

 

We need something between the Impulsor and the Repulsor really. More transport capacity at lower cost.

Like a less up-gunned Repulsor. Maybe it could just have the door guns and a little weapon in exchange for carrying 10 models at a much lower cost.

The again transports in general feel too expensive in this edition.

I get why points for them went up, but they needed to gain some kind of protective measure (like -1 damage or an invul) to feel worth giving up so much to bring.

Especially for us, the issue of buy an expensive transport to get popped in one turn or just buy more bodies that will die but might do more for you than the transport would. We have the benefit of essentially treating the extra bodies in a crusader squad as protective wounds, and will get more useful mileage out of 8 bolt carbine/shotgun shots or chainswords than the impulsor that pops without doing anything but moving. That's why I'm weirdly tempted by a auto boltrifle crusader squad or two. Leave the close combat to BVG, Aggressors, Sword Brothers and have my Crusaders be big close range shooting squads.

Honestly wouldn't be the first time Crusade Squads used "Ablative Neophytes" to be functional.

 

 

We need something between the Impulsor and the Repulsor really. More transport capacity at lower cost.

Like a less up-gunned Repulsor. Maybe it could just have the door guns and a little weapon in exchange for carrying 10 models at a much lower cost.

The again transports in general feel too expensive in this edition.

I get why points for them went up, but they needed to gain some kind of protective measure (like -1 damage or an invul) to feel worth giving up so much to bring.

We've had primaris for 4 years now. If we haven't gotten a no-gun primaris rhino, proper, yet, we aren't getting one.

First Primaris came out 5 years ago as part of Gathering Storm.

And never say never. GW will always find some way to sell us a new kit.

At some point every thing is expendable.

[JAG Templar]

Also regarding helsreach it would have been tactical idiocy for them to deploy with loads of tanks, they are a total liability in an urban environment without significant infantry support. They relied on air assets, jump packs and fast vehicles like bikes to give them the mobility to operate in the hive effectively.

 

Whilst I appreciate that we have limited other sources, using the helsreach crusade to say templars never use armour is a mistake. The ash wastes crusade relied heavily on vehicles but the books covering that have been out of print for a very long time

It’s been a long time since I read it but isn’t there an Armageddon short story (or maybe a small vignette in another book) about a Rhino based squad going round checking for survivors?

 

Doesn’t prove that they used a lot of vehicles but evidence that they used some

[Marshall Bretton]

 

Also regarding helsreach it would have been tactical idiocy for them to deploy with loads of tanks, they are a total liability in an urban environment without significant infantry support. They relied on air assets, jump packs and fast vehicles like bikes to give them the mobility to operate in the hive effectively.

 

Whilst I appreciate that we have limited other sources, using the helsreach crusade to say templars never use armour is a mistake. The ash wastes crusade relied heavily on vehicles but the books covering that have been out of print for a very long time

It’s been a long time since I read it but isn’t there an Armageddon short story (or maybe a small vignette in another book) about a Rhino based squad going round checking for survivors?

 

Doesn’t prove that they used a lot of vehicles but evidence that they used some

I believe that is one of the ones from the books about the ash wastes crusades. Its been a while since I read them and I don't actually own the books as they are out of print (borrowed from a friend lol) but I think they were a set of short stories and one or two longer ones. Overall I remember vehicle use featuring heavily in them as they were basically an armoured column I believe. Edited October 12, 2021 by Gaius Maximus

[JAG Templar]

My thoughts (not that I have a huge amount of 9th experience):

 

- Templars have amazing endurance with army wide 5++ and access to FNPs. Important for this edition.

 

- space marines in general have good midfield shooting. Templars by default benefit from this combined with the above mentioned endurance. I know this won’t give some people the ‘knightly feel’ they are looking for but for me it’s just a fact of life

 

- counter punching is going to be brutal. I’m going to play with a rolling fire base of 3 Redemptors supported by techmarine, Helbrect and screening units. Helbrecht looks like an amazing counter punch, in the same way that Guilliman was for early 8th Ed Ultramarines.

 

I am mainly a hobbyist/ painter who somehow found themselves surrounded by meta players but I’m pretty sure Templars will be above average.

 

The complaint I’m perhaps hearing is that they don’t feel like knights? Yeah, they feel like Iron Hands at the end of 8th, with a melee counter punch thrown in. Or at least that’s how I’m going to try to play them

[tvih]

I wish the Emperors Champion was able to not count towards the HQ allotment. Having to leave a Castellan, Marshal or Chaplain home is tough.

Well... unless it's for a hypercompetitive list you could just get the extra detachment. I mean, EC sadly doesn't seem particularly competitive in this iteration (which is sadly a familiar situation to be in).

[Urkh]

So, I don't have the book myself,, but based off reviews and what is being said on these forums,, personally, I feel like the Templars shift has pushed us away from a more aggro speed to more of a midrange speed.

 

Midrange is the speed between aggro and control, and is quite hard to pull off well. It requires knowledge of the meta, and the ability to realize in the moment the role you are going to play. Midrange's strength is in its flexibility. It has tools to let it go faster, it has tools to make the other slow down. It doesn't just play at one speed. It can play however you need when made correctly. However, midrange is hard to pull off.

 

I feel like our vows are a perfect midrange tool. We can be more aggressive with AAC, more defensive with uphold, gain extra utility with abhor, and suffer not... honestly, I won't suffer it. The trick is figuring out how to use the rest of the book to push our midrange style to the max.

 

I think trying to go too fast, or being too defensive with our book is going to get us in trouble. We need to build flexible lists, that can push pressure on more controlling armies, and weather the storm from the glass cannons. Like I said, midrange is difficult to pull off, but I think we have the tools to do it.

[Ferrum_Sanguinis]

So, I don't have the book myself,, but based off reviews and what is being said on these forums,, personally, I feel like the Templars shift has pushed us away from a more aggro speed to more of a midrange speed.

 

Midrange is the speed between aggro and control, and is quite hard to pull off well. It requires knowledge of the meta, and the ability to realize in the moment the role you are going to play. Midrange's strength is in its flexibility. It has tools to let it go faster, it has tools to make the other slow down. It doesn't just play at one speed. It can play however you need when made correctly. However, midrange is hard to pull off.

 

I feel like our vows are a perfect midrange tool. We can be more aggressive with AAC, more defensive with uphold, gain extra utility with abhor, and suffer not... honestly, I won't suffer it. The trick is figuring out how to use the rest of the book to push our midrange style to the max.

 

I think trying to go too fast, or being too defensive with our book is going to get us in trouble. We need to build flexible lists, that can push pressure on more controlling armies, and weather the storm from the glass cannons. Like I said, midrange is difficult to pull off, but I think we have the tools to do it.

 

 

 

So, I'm a BA player who is maybe about to start a BT army with this new release, so take note that my viewpoint comes from playing an entirely different army so apologies is this sounds all wrong to you veteran BT players. With that said, I just don't see how BW now are still not an aggro as hell army. 20-man SM unites with a 2-wounds each and a 5++ save? From the games I've played against my friend who runs Crimson fists, sometimes its hard enough just wiping out a 5-man squad of Primaris BA before it slams into you. Now imagine a 20 man unit, now imagine 2 or even 3 20-man unites all rushing towards you, backed up by the borderline-broken Redemptors ALSO with a 5++ save...

Edited October 12, 2021 by Ferrum_Sanguinis

[Mandragola]

In-universe there's simply no reason for marines to have a repulsor without so many guns, in my opinion. Guns are useful and I don't think any soldier has ever asked to have fewer of them, so long as they didn't have to carry them. The weird thing is that marines ever used to go around in a heap of junk like a Rhino. Hyper-elite special forces don't use tracked, unarmed, barely-armoured vehicles to get around.

 

There'd potentially be a case for a repulsor variant with better armour or shielding and fewer weapons. Some sort of breaching version, maybe. And there should definitely be a flying transport equivalent to a Storm Raven (and drop pods, and something to carry heavy equipment), so that they've got a way down off their space ships.

 

The problem in-game is that repulsors are awful, leaving Primaris with a transport that makes sense thematically but which is unplayable.

[Urkh]

When you say "aggro as hell" i think "my one goal is to charge and chop stuff up." Yes, we have strong aggro elements in our book, but we also have strong defensive elements as well. By mixing them, we can create an army that is multi-layered, flexible, and hard to predict.

 

Black templars may be angry marines, but we're not idiot chopping machines.

[BitsHammer]

Honestly if we got a transport variant of the Repulsor it should be based on the Crusader.

[Marshall Bretton]

Hyper-elite special forces don't use tracked, unarmed, barely-armoured vehicles to get around.

 

 

No they used wheeled unarmed barely armoured vehicles because tracks are a total liability and its way easier to change a tyre than to try and repair a broken track.

[Tokugawa]

Competition for HQ slots is cruel. Usually a batallion is enough to contain the good marine stuff, so no more than 3 HQs.

 

A HQ need very strong reason to persuade templar player bringing him instead of Helbrecht, Grimaldus or Tannhouser biker chaplain. Or a tech marine in full mech lists. (Personally I don't want to play Black hands or Iron templars. )

[BitsHammer]

 

Hyper-elite special forces don't use tracked, unarmed, barely-armoured vehicles to get around.

 

No they used wheeled unarmed barely armoured vehicles because tracks are a total liability and its way easier to change a tyre than to try and repair a broken track.

 

Let's not forget the issue of weight for Astartes and their choice of transport as well.

 

Beyond that the Rhino was likely chosen during the Crusade because it had the ability to move while fully loaded with Marines, provided reasonable protection and was easy to mass produce. Since that was good enough for the Emperor's Legions it's good enough for modern Marines (though it's gone through countless small iterative updates to the point that beyond the basic shape they're not really the same exact vehicle anymore).

[BitsHammer]

[MegaVolt87]

 

 

Hyper-elite special forces don't use tracked, unarmed, barely-armoured vehicles to get around.

 

No they used wheeled unarmed barely armoured vehicles because tracks are a total liability and its way easier to change a tyre than to try and repair a broken track.

 

Let's not forget the issue of weight for Astartes and their choice of transport as well.

 

Beyond that the Rhino was likely chosen during the Crusade because it had the ability to move while fully loaded with Marines, provided reasonable protection and was easy to mass produce. Since that was good enough for the Emperor's Legions it's good enough for modern Marines (though it's gone through countless small iterative updates to the point that beyond the basic shape they're not really the same exact vehicle anymore).

 

 

Rhino's are better in the lore than the tabletop, Demios rhino's are very high tech back in the day comapred to Mars pattern, Rhino is armoured enough for its speed, it was fielded in the hundreds back in the day, so a mech attack was devastating. 40k Astartes mech assaults are more smash and grab, behind the lines roving or kill enemy command, smaller scale operations. BT might actually be the best army to do firstborn with + FW units for loyalists at the moment. 

[BitsHammer]

 

 

 

Hyper-elite special forces don't use tracked, unarmed, barely-armoured vehicles to get around.

 

No they used wheeled unarmed barely armoured vehicles because tracks are a total liability and its way easier to change a tyre than to try and repair a broken track.

 

Let's not forget the issue of weight for Astartes and their choice of transport as well.

 

Beyond that the Rhino was likely chosen during the Crusade because it had the ability to move while fully loaded with Marines, provided reasonable protection and was easy to mass produce. Since that was good enough for the Emperor's Legions it's good enough for modern Marines (though it's gone through countless small iterative updates to the point that beyond the basic shape they're not really the same exact vehicle anymore).

 

 

Rhino's are better in the lore than the tabletop, Demios rhino's are very high tech back in the day comapred to Mars pattern, Rhino is armoured enough for its speed, it was fielded in the hundreds back in the day, so a mech attack was devastating. 40k Astartes mech assaults are more smash and grab, behind the lines roving or kill enemy command, smaller scale operations. BT might actually be the best army to do firstborn with + FW units for loyalists at the moment. 

 

Firstborn certainly do mechanized far better than Primaris. I think the Impulsor being 5 models only is what really cinches it for them. That and the lack of drop pods, or ability to deep strike Gravis units.

 

Primaris are not able to really be "fast" in the ways we're used to seeing Marines and that's a problem that will need to be remedied at some point.