my honest opinion

[Medjugorje]

Melee has rarely ever been king in 40K and when it has it's reign has often been short.

the whole 3rd to 5th edition close combat was more important. It changed completly in 6th and 7th edition. the worst editions we had so far.

[Medjugorje]

Look, the simple fact is that, historically and realistically, if "melee was king", we would never have invented anything past javelins, and we'd be fighting modern wars with chainswords and power nunchucks.

 

It just makes sense in a futuristic wargame, even one with a narrative regression towards a future 'dark age', ranged weapons should be better at killing than melee ones.

Did you saw dune or read the books? It shows how realistic it can be done. And dont forget that 40k was in beginning heavily influenced by DUNE.

[BitsHammer]

 

Melee has rarely ever been king in 40K and when it has it's reign has often been short.

the whole 3rd to 5th edition close combat was more important. It changed completly in 6th and 7th edition. the worst editions we had so far.

 

It was more important, but we also could sweep squads in melee which helped a lot.

[Banjulhu]

 

All I remember about 5th ed is marine Las-Plas marine squads, Imperial Guard leaf blowers, Kaldor Draigo and Chaos Marine players begging to have the Pete Haines 3.5 codex back.

I remember killing Draigowing and Death Company spam with melta guns. Turns out Sisters where a great anti-MEQ army.

 

Ah the good old days when Dominions squads were packing as much Melta weaponry as possible and you took 3 exorcists becuase they were the only good long range weapon you had access to.

[BitsHammer]

 

 

All I remember about 5th ed is marine Las-Plas marine squads, Imperial Guard leaf blowers, Kaldor Draigo and Chaos Marine players begging to have the Pete Haines 3.5 codex back.

I remember killing Draigowing and Death Company spam with melta guns. Turns out Sisters where a great anti-MEQ army.

 

Ah the good old days when Dominions squads were packing as much Melta weaponry as possible and you took 3 exorcists becuase they were the only good long range weapon you had access to.

 

And you lost to hordes because you had no blast template weapons.

[Medjugorje]

 

 

 

All I remember about 5th ed is marine Las-Plas marine squads, Imperial Guard leaf blowers, Kaldor Draigo and Chaos Marine players begging to have the Pete Haines 3.5 codex back.

I remember killing Draigowing and Death Company spam with melta guns. Turns out Sisters where a great anti-MEQ army.

 

Ah the good old days when Dominions squads were packing as much Melta weaponry as possible and you took 3 exorcists becuase they were the only good long range weapon you had access to.

 

And you lost to hordes because you had no blast template weapons.

 

nah - you lost because cover saves gives them 4+ cover save and they all were spread 2" so that you get just 5 under the template and 2 wounded and one cover save was made^^

[BitsHammer]

 

 

 

 

All I remember about 5th ed is marine Las-Plas marine squads, Imperial Guard leaf blowers, Kaldor Draigo and Chaos Marine players begging to have the Pete Haines 3.5 codex back.

I remember killing Draigowing and Death Company spam with melta guns. Turns out Sisters where a great anti-MEQ army.

 

Ah the good old days when Dominions squads were packing as much Melta weaponry as possible and you took 3 exorcists becuase they were the only good long range weapon you had access to.

 

And you lost to hordes because you had no blast template weapons.

 

nah - you lost because cover saves gives them 4+ cover save and they all were spread 2" so that you get just 5 under the template and 2 wounded and one cover save was made^^

 

Nah, I usually barely getting one good turn shooting only before I got krumped by Orks. Being a 12" shooting army (yes bolters are 24" but the best shooting is in 12") is a risky thing.

 

Back to Templars: mixed squads feel like the best approach. We should build to be flexible and use that innate flexibility to be a TAC unit. Like Tactical Marines, but our load out is a mix of melee and shooting instead of different kinds of shooting.

[Medjugorje]

In my game yesterday I realized how strong the Relic Bearer are. They´ve been all really great. The Fist of Balthus for example makes a simple Assault Intercessor squad so much deadlier. Dont ferget you can fight twice with them ( and I never had to). It is like +1 to hit for what I always wanted. There are still ways for have better movment abilites like canticle of hate.

[BitsHammer]

In my game yesterday I realized how strong the Relic Bearer are. They´ve been all really great. The Fist of Balthus for example makes a simple Assault Intercessor squad so much deadlier. Dont ferget you can fight twice with them ( and I never had to). It is like +1 to hit for what I always wanted. There are still ways for have better movment abilites like canticle of hate.

I'll be honest: I'd rather be stuck in combat than fight twice against most things.

[Medjugorje]

 

In my game yesterday I realized how strong the Relic Bearer are. They´ve been all really great. The Fist of Balthus for example makes a simple Assault Intercessor squad so much deadlier. Dont ferget you can fight twice with them ( and I never had to). It is like +1 to hit for what I always wanted. There are still ways for have better movment abilites like canticle of hate.

I'll be honest: I'd rather be stuck in combat than fight twice against most things.

 

depends on how many obsec units are on the objective marker or how good they can fight back.^^

[BitsHammer]

 

 

In my game yesterday I realized how strong the Relic Bearer are. They´ve been all really great. The Fist of Balthus for example makes a simple Assault Intercessor squad so much deadlier. Dont ferget you can fight twice with them ( and I never had to). It is like +1 to hit for what I always wanted. There are still ways for have better movment abilites like canticle of hate.

I'll be honest: I'd rather be stuck in combat than fight twice against most things.

 

depends on how many obsec units are on the objective marker or how good they can fight back.^^

 

Like I said: against most things. Killing our way out of combat on our turn tends to be bad for us in most situations. 

[Medjugorje]

mabe in 8th edition but not yet. I think its very important to kill every little opponent unit because often they can fall back and then the opponent can contest, make actions later on or just score engage on all fronts. Like the old rule from 4th edition: KILL THEM ALL!

[Kastor Krieg]

Chaos Marine players begging to have the Pete Haines 3.5 codex back.

Aren't they still though? :P

[Sword Brother Adelard]

 

 

Chaos Marine players begging to have the Pete Haines 3.5 codex back.

Aren't they still though? :P

With good reason!

 

Says us, who've been asking for a codex for almost as long.

[tvih]

Look, the simple fact is that, historically and realistically, if "melee was king", we would never have invented anything past javelins, and we'd be fighting modern wars with chainswords and power nunchucks.

 

It just makes sense in a futuristic wargame, even one with a narrative regression towards a future 'dark age', ranged weapons should be better at killing than melee ones.

I mean sure, yeah - and with something like BT at least you also have that good shooting, so you can mix 'em up to handle a variety of opponents. But then there's armies that are meh or crap at shooting and yet not good enough in melee to compensate, which sucks. Orks can build certain powerful lists now, but they along with tyranids were near the bottom for quite some time. And generally even they have had to try to lean into the shooty things like Mek Gunz and now the buggies etc, despite meaning to be a melee army.

Edited October 15, 2021 by tvih

[8Six]

I all but guarantee we will look back in a few months and be pleasantly surprised at how we fair in the meta.

 

This is a subtle, but strong army. I see several builds jump out at me that will be really good. It's also important to mention that Marines in general are not top tier, but BT offer some real durability to offset some of the silly stuff we will face out there.

 

Stay strong brothers, The Emperor protects!

[Marshal Laeroth]

 

 

 

DEVIL'S ADVOCATE:

 

med and others are not saying that "we are not a melee army because our melee is bad".

 

what they are actualy saying "we are not a FAST melee army, and fast melee army is the ONLY kind of melee that ever works in competitive".

 

 

i tend to agree with them. both statements are correct.

-the only kind of melee army that has ever worked in competitive is a fast one". this statement is true.

 

- we still fast, but not really fast, not a full forward rush melee army anymore". this is also a true statement.

 

the army CAN pack a melee punch, use melee to storm some objectives or countercharge. but we need to include more shooting than before. we are more of a tough army than a melee or shooting army.

 

I LIKE THIS. "too stubborn and anrgy to die"

That is a fair take and something I can agree with. Part of my problem is that they looked right at Grimaldus, said his advancing buff was bad because "you can't do anything". Really? In the army with Primaris Crusader squads who can pack all assault weapons and then still punch people to death thanks the the insane number of melee buff sources we have?

 

It feels like "fast" is being narrowly defined as "can turn 1 alpha strike in melee" and that's not a great take.

the part about Grim was too fast written because i was "down" a bit. I already have a very different opinion on him now.

I like the way you are all arguing. I was really pissed how I was shut down in IN discord where all people marked me as a "hater"...

That was really Unfair.

 

btw.. I was on a podcast (german) to talk about the new Supp. Whoever understand the language -- I will post the link when its on YT.

I want it noted that we never shut down anyone on their opinions. Nor did we moderate anyone. Or mute anyone. All we asked for was patience and cool-heads while discussing the new codex. Most have been. However, what was truly unfair, that while hundreds of people were trying to figure out the new codex...you came in and very, very vocally start saying (I am paraphrasing): "the supplement sucks, I am a competitive player with many tournaments, I know. It sucks. Even Art of War says its sucks." Tge first time around, you did at least try to give reasoning for your opinion, which was great. But then when people tried to give a counter-point, you reverted to the "I am a competitive player, I know." And then stopped responding. That's not having a fair and productive conversation.

[Medjugorje]

 

 

 

DEVIL'S ADVOCATE:

 

med and others are not saying that "we are not a melee army because our melee is bad".

 

what they are actualy saying "we are not a FAST melee army, and fast melee army is the ONLY kind of melee that ever works in competitive".

 

 

i tend to agree with them. both statements are correct.

-the only kind of melee army that has ever worked in competitive is a fast one". this statement is true.

 

- we still fast, but not really fast, not a full forward rush melee army anymore". this is also a true statement.

 

the army CAN pack a melee punch, use melee to storm some objectives or countercharge. but we need to include more shooting than before. we are more of a tough army than a melee or shooting army.

 

I LIKE THIS. "too stubborn and anrgy to die"

That is a fair take and something I can agree with. Part of my problem is that they looked right at Grimaldus, said his advancing buff was bad because "you can't do anything". Really? In the army with Primaris Crusader squads who can pack all assault weapons and then still punch people to death thanks the the insane number of melee buff sources we have?

 

It feels like "fast" is being narrowly defined as "can turn 1 alpha strike in melee" and that's not a great take.

the part about Grim was too fast written because i was "down" a bit. I already have a very different opinion on him now.

I like the way you are all arguing. I was really pissed how I was shut down in IN discord where all people marked me as a "hater"...

That was really Unfair.

 

btw.. I was on a podcast (german) to talk about the new Supp. Whoever understand the language -- I will post the link when its on YT.

I want it noted that we never shut down anyone on their opinions. Nor did we moderate anyone. Or mute anyone. All we asked for was patience and cool-heads while discussing the new codex. Most have been. However, what was truly unfair, that while hundreds of people were trying to figure out the new codex...you came in and very, very vocally start saying (I am paraphrasing): "the supplement sucks, I am a competitive player with many tournaments, I know. It sucks. Even Art of War says its sucks." Tge first time around, you did at least try to give reasoning for your opinion, which was great. But then when people tried to give a counter-point, you reverted to the "I am a competitive player, I know." And then stopped responding. That's not having a fair and productive conversation.

 

What should I do - i am  hot headed and sometimes too angry to....

 

 

(well, we know persons who are the same kind of )

 

Anyway - I think I am getting hot with the new Supp. Especially after I found out some real combos and i build the first Crusadersquad. I have to say that I still miss Advance and charge after the first game.

and I have to say I was triggered in some FB and IN discord groups after I said we are not a close combat army now I was shouted down. Then came my "angry child" reaction.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

You could sincerely apologize to everyone here.

[Marshal Mittens]

The issue is more lots of high AP D2 weapons in 9e that make the price we pay for 3+ and 2W too expensive. There is little GW can do with our codex to fix that, imo, its a system wide balance issue. Most updated armies have a way of killing space marines in a point effective way.

[Charlo]

The issue is more lots of high AP D2 weapons in 9e that make the price we pay for 3+ and 2W too expensive. There is little GW can do with our codex to fix that, imo, its a system wide balance issue. Most updated armies have a way of killing space marines in a point effective way.

That's where an inherent 5++ and easy access to 5+++ come in!

 

Plus honourable neophyte bullet shields ;)

[JAG Templar]

My only complaint so far is that the data cards in the army box don’t include the supplement litanies. For some reason there are reprints of the core rule book stratagems but not the Templar litanies. Annoying.

[BitsHammer]

My only complaint so far is that the data cards in the army box don’t include the supplement litanies. For some reason there are reprints of the core rule book stratagems but not the Templar litanies. Annoying.

They shorted the Sisters in the same way. But then Thousand Sons got their litanies for their all of one priest model.

[tvih]

 

That's where an inherent 5++ and easy access to 5+++ come in!

 

Plus honourable neophyte bullet shields

I know that on average 5++ should pass 33% of saves... but it gives me little solace. For example a battle today - it was with CF, but I lost two HQs to a sniping inferno pistol canoness because in both cases I failed to pass 4++ even after a reroll. Similarly with my Sisters, I've used 4+ to ignore mortal wounds stratagem on about 10 wounds so far... and not ONCE did I actually prevent a wound with it yet.

 

In general today's semi-CC oriented list worked poorly enough to dampen my spirits regarding my planned BT lists. But gotta push through...

[Mordred the Avenger]

TL;DR is that most of the vows are weaker than the super-doctrines of other space marines, and that isn't even counting that they have built-in negative effects.

 

I think reading John Lennon's article on Goonhammer (https://www.goonhammer.com/john-lennon-talks-about-playing-with-the-new-black-templars-codex/) is a good way to see the new codex:

 

"I think I have decided that against all lore and preconceived notions, The Black Templars are not a melee army. Much like the Adepta Sororitas, they have transitioned into the nebulous world of being a board control army that threatens melee to the unwise heretic who dares close the gap first."

 

Long story short, forget the 8th edition Templars. The days of melee blitzing across the map are (sadly) over. The 9th edition Templars will have to find competitiveness in their durability and board control abilities.

 

It is likely not as strong as the high mobility playstyle we are coming from, and I find that disappointing, but the new codex has more power than many are giving it credit for.