my honest opinion

[Mordred the Avenger]

Ignore the above post, I was apparently replying to something posted days ago.

 

Sorry folks.

[Brother Kraskor]

I wonder if Flyers will get a look-in with 5++.

[Medjugorje]

I wonder if Flyers will get a look-in with 5++.

at least we have the best ones

[Tokugawa]

9th Sisters codex do two things before introduce shiny new tools and units:

 

Targeted eliminate the most powerful tricks(e.g. fight twice, 36 inches melta) in old book in a surgical strike.

 

Remove a 1CP stratagem which "make 1 unit advance and charge".

 

Familiar with?

Edited October 17, 2021 by Tokugawa

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Sisters are so slow now they lost that strat. /sarcasm Edited October 18, 2021 by Black Blow Fly

[Medjugorje]

just the repentias. You dont see them anymore on tournaments. And Sisters have one of the best special rules... Miracle dice are so crazy insane good if you want to charge

Edited October 17, 2021 by Medjugorje

[tvih]

Repentia can still advance & charge... if they have a Superior nearby. That does of course limit things, since they need to be on the table in the command phase to activate that ability. But melee aside, Argent Shroud are anything but slow. And then, BT isn't really meant to be like that, we're not White Scars :P

[SkimaskMohawk]

It's interesting people bring up the changes to the sisters with their 9th Ed book. There was some major doom and gloom on their release about the power level dropping and them being uncompetitive compared to their 8th version, but results showed them as being exponentially better in tournament.

 

Board control with defensive tools and melee spikes seem to be better than sheer alpha strike. It's just requires better play to leverage.

[Charlo]

Yeah, ultimately Sisters went from one viable build to LOADS, it's probably the best designed 9th Ed book currently out there (bar a couple weird outliers).

 

Templars have been tech'd into their relentless side, which is pretty cool!

[BitsHammer]

Saw this on Reddit and it's a fair point. If Templars aren't really going all melee it's because Space Marines as a whole aren't set up to play that way:

 

I get that this may have varied through previous editions, but I get the sense people have fundamental misunderstandings about how certain armies should work in this game, whether that is due to a bias of what they want or just not seeing the direction GW has taken the game

 

For example, since 8th edition codexes came out, every single faction (except ynnarri which are essentially their own SF of 3 factions) has individual sub factions that take the faction formula and twist it a little to provide a different flavor. They're not meant to feel like completely and radically different armies from the other sub factions, but instead reward you for taking certain units and prioritizing one aspect of the many that make up the army. Bad Moons orks get more value out of shooting than Goffs, but both BM and Goffs want some shooting and some melee. BM want to lean more into shooting whereas Goffs lean more to melee, but orks overall tend to have strong melee options and rely on weight of numbers no matter what SF you pick

 

Space Marines are not an exception to this idea. Whatever chapter you are playing, SM as a faction is balanced in their approach. Every space marine list should be using a mix of shooting and melee options in order to make the most effective list, not going completely skewed to one end of the spectrum. UM may want more shooting and BT may want more melee, but there absolutely should be strong melee options in UM and strong shooting options in BT because they're both SM subfactions, so they should largely still play like any other marine faction

 

Maybe that's not everyone's cup of tea, but it's not like skew factions don't exist (Tau for shooting and Demons for Melee) and I think the way they've done subfactions has made more sense thematically than it used to

[Acebaur]

TL;DR is that most of the vows are weaker than the super-doctrines of other space marines, and that isn't even counting that they have built-in negative effects.

 

I think reading John Lennon's article on Goonhammer (https://www.goonhammer.com/john-lennon-talks-about-playing-with-the-new-black-templars-codex/) is a good way to see the new codex:

 

"I think I have decided that against all lore and preconceived notions, The Black Templars are not a melee army. Much like the Adepta Sororitas, they have transitioned into the nebulous world of being a board control army that threatens melee to the unwise heretic who dares close the gap first."

 

Long story short, forget the 8th edition Templars. The days of melee blitzing across the map are (sadly) over. The 9th edition Templars will have to find competitiveness in their durability and board control abilities.

 

It is likely not as strong as the high mobility playstyle we are coming from, and I find that disappointing, but the new codex has more power than many are giving it credit 

 

Here's the thing, NO ONE is a melee army. John is speaking about running pure melee, not army does that at competitive levels. That doesn't mean we are bad at melee (far far from it) that doesn't mean we should only run shooting units, what he's actually saying is that you have to run a list that can control the board, has fire support and can score objectives. We have that in spades.  AND we are good in melee on top of that. 

 

I'm tired of seeing people take one sentence out of context  and be like "iNtErNeT MaN sAiD nO MeLeE, CoDeX bAd" 

 

Please, people look at the codex and all the combo's we now have and all the great things we can do with this book. Can you run nothing buy melee units? No, no army who wants to be competitive can either. But we can run strong melee units that can take out enemy targets and be supported by shooting and board control units

[BitsHammer]

 

 

TL;DR is that most of the vows are weaker than the super-doctrines of other space marines, and that isn't even counting that they have built-in negative effects.

 

I think reading John Lennon's article on Goonhammer (https://www.goonhammer.com/john-lennon-talks-about-playing-with-the-new-black-templars-codex/) is a good way to see the new codex:

 

"I think I have decided that against all lore and preconceived notions, The Black Templars are not a melee army. Much like the Adepta Sororitas, they have transitioned into the nebulous world of being a board control army that threatens melee to the unwise heretic who dares close the gap first."

 

Long story short, forget the 8th edition Templars. The days of melee blitzing across the map are (sadly) over. The 9th edition Templars will have to find competitiveness in their durability and board control abilities.

 

It is likely not as strong as the high mobility playstyle we are coming from, and I find that disappointing, but the new codex has more power than many are giving it credit

Here's the thing, NO ONE is a melee army. John is speaking about running pure melee, not army does that at competitive levels. That doesn't mean we are bad at melee (far far from it) that doesn't mean we should only run shooting units, what he's actually saying is that you have to run a list that can control the board, has fire support and can score objectives. We have that in spades. AND we are good in melee on top of that.

 

I'm tired of seeing people take one sentence out of context and be like "iNtErNeT MaN sAiD nO MeLeE, CoDeX bAd"

 

Please, people look at the codex and all the combo's we now have and all the great things we can do with this book. Can you run nothing buy melee units? No, no army who wants to be competitive can either. But we can run strong melee units that can take out enemy targets and be supported by shooting and board control units

You are not wrong but you also have to remember that some armies have an almost flanderized perception of what they should be doing so there is some emotional whiplash at play for people discovering Templars aren't a "melee only" faction.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I had to Google 'flanderisation' but I think that's a good use of the term.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The main strength is still close combat which is powerful.

[BitsHammer]

I had to Google 'flanderisation' but I think that's a good use of the term.

It's a lovely word, and I think it fits well to how every faction always gets reduced to the most basic element and all else is defenstrated.

 

The main strength is still close combat which is powerful.

Oh no doubt, but the answer is to not go pure melee, but rather the army should be a combined arms toolbox. Much like how a Crusade organizes to deal with a threat, so should we.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’ll definitely be running some Eradicators with heavy melta.

[Medjugorje]

Yeah, ultimately Sisters went from one viable build to LOADS, it's probably the best designed 9th Ed book currently out there (bar a couple weird outliers).

 

Templars have been tech'd into their relentless side, which is pretty cool!

I played often agasinst sisters. The old builds looked far stronger to me.

 

 

And come on... at the moment all Sistersplayers just play Morven Vall + Celestine with their bodyguards in a ultraboring TTL- list. 

[Medjugorje]

The main strength is still close combat which is powerful.

After some games I think not. We are just like Ultramarines. We have a lot of shooting and we force the opponent into our direction and when he comes we will hit em hard in combat.

But our main strenght is neither nor. We are in the middle - our real strength is our Input and a few shenanigans here and there (both for melee and shooting)

[Medjugorje]

 

TL;DR is that most of the vows are weaker than the super-doctrines of other space marines, and that isn't even counting that they have built-in negative effects.

 

I think reading John Lennon's article on Goonhammer (https://www.goonhammer.com/john-lennon-talks-about-playing-with-the-new-black-templars-codex/) is a good way to see the new codex:

 

"I think I have decided that against all lore and preconceived notions, The Black Templars are not a melee army. Much like the Adepta Sororitas, they have transitioned into the nebulous world of being a board control army that threatens melee to the unwise heretic who dares close the gap first."

 

Long story short, forget the 8th edition Templars. The days of melee blitzing across the map are (sadly) over. The 9th edition Templars will have to find competitiveness in their durability and board control abilities.

 

It is likely not as strong as the high mobility playstyle we are coming from, and I find that disappointing, but the new codex has more power than many are giving it credit 

 

Here's the thing, NO ONE is a melee army. John is speaking about running pure melee, not army does that at competitive levels. That doesn't mean we are bad at melee (far far from it) that doesn't mean we should only run shooting units, what he's actually saying is that you have to run a list that can control the board, has fire support and can score objectives. We have that in spades.  AND we are good in melee on top of that. 

 

I'm tired of seeing people take one sentence out of context  and be like "iNtErNeT MaN sAiD nO MeLeE, CoDeX bAd" 

 

Please, people look at the codex and all the combo's we now have and all the great things we can do with this book. Can you run nothing buy melee units? No, no army who wants to be competitive can either. But we can run strong melee units that can take out enemy targets and be supported by shooting and board control units

 

the main thing is that we used to be a melee army before. Even in this time we had great shooting units. But be honest - we dont have a stratagem for close combat  support. No +1 to hit nor +1 to wound nor rerolls in any way. No exploding 6s (except SB). Everything must come from our chaplains. 

Boombastic delivery is a very good stratagem but in comparison you have to pay 2CP and have restrictions 

[Medjugorje]

 

 

TL;DR is that most of the vows are weaker than the super-doctrines of other space marines, and that isn't even counting that they have built-in negative effects.

 

I think reading John Lennon's article on Goonhammer (https://www.goonhammer.com/john-lennon-talks-about-playing-with-the-new-black-templars-codex/) is a good way to see the new codex:

 

"I think I have decided that against all lore and preconceived notions, The Black Templars are not a melee army. Much like the Adepta Sororitas, they have transitioned into the nebulous world of being a board control army that threatens melee to the unwise heretic who dares close the gap first."

 

Long story short, forget the 8th edition Templars. The days of melee blitzing across the map are (sadly) over. The 9th edition Templars will have to find competitiveness in their durability and board control abilities.

 

It is likely not as strong as the high mobility playstyle we are coming from, and I find that disappointing, but the new codex has more power than many are giving it credit

Here's the thing, NO ONE is a melee army. John is speaking about running pure melee, not army does that at competitive levels. That doesn't mean we are bad at melee (far far from it) that doesn't mean we should only run shooting units, what he's actually saying is that you have to run a list that can control the board, has fire support and can score objectives. We have that in spades. AND we are good in melee on top of that.

 

I'm tired of seeing people take one sentence out of context and be like "iNtErNeT MaN sAiD nO MeLeE, CoDeX bAd"

 

Please, people look at the codex and all the combo's we now have and all the great things we can do with this book. Can you run nothing buy melee units? No, no army who wants to be competitive can either. But we can run strong melee units that can take out enemy targets and be supported by shooting and board control units

You are not wrong but you also have to remember that some armies have an almost flanderized perception of what they should be doing so there is some emotional whiplash at play for people discovering Templars aren't a "melee only" faction.

 

Hey.... played a game against Iron hands and realized that they have better close combat stratagems then we have. That was annoying. Great disappointment. I am not on this hate level I used to be. But still there are so many people in this forum and on the WWW that strictly dont want to see some facts.  That you can play same armies with another Marine supplement makes a lot of units work way better in melee - a lot of them  - not just the usual suspected chapters like BA and SW.

 

Maybe we can compensate that with a few mechanics but nothing what is considered as shooty or melee. As I maybe was too hateful a lot of you are really blinded. A lot of you see through rose-colored glasses. What is THE  strongest melee army in the game? ---> Drukhari with Advance and charge and +1 to hit. Like Incubi have such amount of dmg2 and dmg3 attacks. 

 

Marine players have to buy a fist for 10 points which deals 10 damage -  but only hitting on 4+ 

Thats a hard thing to perform without those mechanics. Maybe we have them in another way. Hopefully. But i played a Mini tournament and one game already and I think our main damage dealing comes from whatever we build around ( if melee then we can play a melee heavy force).. But we dont have great success because of our melee or shooting power. We just have very good ways to play the marker game. 

[BitsHammer]

 

 

 

TL;DR is that most of the vows are weaker than the super-doctrines of other space marines, and that isn't even counting that they have built-in negative effects.

 

I think reading John Lennon's article on Goonhammer (https://www.goonhammer.com/john-lennon-talks-about-playing-with-the-new-black-templars-codex/) is a good way to see the new codex:

 

"I think I have decided that against all lore and preconceived notions, The Black Templars are not a melee army. Much like the Adepta Sororitas, they have transitioned into the nebulous world of being a board control army that threatens melee to the unwise heretic who dares close the gap first."

 

Long story short, forget the 8th edition Templars. The days of melee blitzing across the map are (sadly) over. The 9th edition Templars will have to find competitiveness in their durability and board control abilities.

 

It is likely not as strong as the high mobility playstyle we are coming from, and I find that disappointing, but the new codex has more power than many are giving it credit

Here's the thing, NO ONE is a melee army. John is speaking about running pure melee, not army does that at competitive levels. That doesn't mean we are bad at melee (far far from it) that doesn't mean we should only run shooting units, what he's actually saying is that you have to run a list that can control the board, has fire support and can score objectives. We have that in spades. AND we are good in melee on top of that.

 

I'm tired of seeing people take one sentence out of context and be like "iNtErNeT MaN sAiD nO MeLeE, CoDeX bAd"

 

Please, people look at the codex and all the combo's we now have and all the great things we can do with this book. Can you run nothing buy melee units? No, no army who wants to be competitive can either. But we can run strong melee units that can take out enemy targets and be supported by shooting and board control units

You are not wrong but you also have to remember that some armies have an almost flanderized perception of what they should be doing so there is some emotional whiplash at play for people discovering Templars aren't a "melee only" faction.

 

Hey.... played a game against Iron hands and realized that they have better close combat stratagems then we have. That was annoying. Great disappointment. I am not on this hate level I used to be. But still there are so many people in this forum and on the WWW that strictly dont want to see some facts.  That you can play same armies with another Marine supplement makes a lot of units work way better in melee - a lot of them  - not just the usual suspected chapters like BA and SW.

 

Maybe we can compensate that with a few mechanics but nothing what is considered as shooty or melee. As I maybe was too hateful a lot of you are really blinded. A lot of you see through rose-colored glasses. What is THE  strongest melee army in the game? ---> Drukhari with Advance and charge and +1 to hit. Like Incubi have such amount of dmg2 and dmg3 attacks. 

 

Marine players have to buy a fist for 10 points which deals 10 damage -  but only hitting on 4+ 

Thats a hard thing to perform without those mechanics. Maybe we have them in another way. Hopefully. But i played a Mini tournament and one game already and I think our main damage dealing comes from whatever we build around ( if melee then we can play a melee heavy force).. But we dont have great success because of our melee or shooting power. We just have very good ways to play the marker game. 

 

Let's not start getting aggressive. People have a lot of emotional investment in the army so it being different is going to rock the boat, give people time to adjust without being aggressive about it.

 

I am pretty sure the best way to look at Templars is a toolbox army, not a melee or a shooting army. They're probably a solid B tier which can spike into A tier right now, but it feels like the game might shift when Chapter Approved drops in December. That or GW is going to be mining 7th edition levels of salt.

[tvih]

Things in this thread are mainly just going in circles at this point. Everyone has their view of what they want the army to be or what it is now. Rarely will arguing about it change anything.

[BitsHammer]

Things in this thread are mainly just going in circles at this point. Everyone has their view of what they want the army to be or what it is now. Rarely will arguing about it change anything.

Believe me, I'm still wishing the Black Tide was a good build.

[tvih]

Perhaps not at a higher level, but I reckon I wouldn't be able to stop a proper Black Tide with what Sisters I have available, for example. And while my Sisters aren't really tournament-level, it's not a bad list.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

Yeah, ultimately Sisters went from one viable build to LOADS, it's probably the best designed 9th Ed book currently out there (bar a couple weird outliers).

Templars have been tech'd into their relentless side, which is pretty cool!

 

I played often agasinst sisters. The old builds looked far stronger to me.

 

 

And come on... at the moment all Sistersplayers just play Morven Vall + Celestine with their bodyguards in a ultraboring TTL- list.

Same can be said for Drukhari. It’s all the same cheese.