Dune to Warhammer 40k Astartes

[Helias_Tancred]

I just watched the new Dune movie (several times lol) and I've read the novel twice in decades past. The more I think about it, the more I can't help to think that the story behind space marines were heavily influenced by the Imperial Sarduakar. 

 

There's additional influence from the Dune genre on the development of Warhammer 40k. I'd love to be able to interview the creators of 40k and ask them, without any implication of IP and lawsuits, just straight up what influenced their ideas and concepts, what they essentially "borrowed", etc.

 

 

[Spagunk]

I mean, yes, absolutely it is. I am not even joking when I say that Dune was a heavy influence on 40k/Rogue Trader. Heinlein's "starship troopers" also, with tolkein-esc tones thrown in but mostly a lot of Dune.

Think about the whole "Men of Iron" bit in the lore: straight up borrowed from Herbert's story lines. Also the fact that Dune is set in the year 40k AD which is not a coincidence that we have WH40k

[Helias_Tancred]

lol oops I thought I posted this under Space Marines. but anyways ..... 

[m0nolith]

Sometimes Sci-Fi universes borrow elements from other universes and are inspired by them.

Other times, like in 40k's case, they straight up copy things wholesale from them!

 

God-Emperor, Navigators, these two things not even having their names changed.

Artificial Intelligence being illegal due to there being a war with them in the past.

Nobile houses ruling worlds, personal energy shields,  ect ect ect.

 

Granted I love 40k even more than I love Dune, and I LOVE Dune!

Edited October 27, 2021 by m0nolith

[Helias_Tancred]

lol well said!

[Majkhel]

Oh yes they are! All the more reason to raise eyebrows at what GW is doing around "their" IP :D

Aaaaaaaanyway, I think I there were several instances where John Blanche has said precisely that when talking influences on the WH40k background.

[Captain Idaho]

It gets worse when you read what Morcock said himself about GW:

 

I suppose I should have trademarked all that stuff, but like most of my contempories the idea never occurred to me. I have some general trademarks which do cover the Chaos Symbol as well as other stuff like that, but it's a bore to pursue the people who rip you off. It's the price you pay (like Tolkien, in fact) for being one of the first in your field. The stuff gets into the common consciousness. Flattery in one way.

 

I know we were speaking of David Gemmell in one of these threads. I just noticed his latest novel is (wait for it, wait for it) The Hawk Eternal. Now there's someone who HAS to be consciously recycling my various titles. I feel towards him the way I feel towards someone you find pinching your stuff who nods and grins and just goes right on putting your cash in his pocket. Jaw dropping! It's hard to describe the kind of contempt I feel for such people. Warhammer, however, are the ace rippers off of all time. A commercial outfit who have exploited the work of many writers. You could probably find other threads here which go into details regarding the authors they've directly ripped off.

Warhammer have also been bad about paying some of these authors, according to the ones I've known. So they are ripping everyone off at every opportunity, it appears. This is an example of Pratchett's Law where people are taking everything out of the big pot and apparently putting absolutely nothing back in. Stew thieves. Nothing worse in this neck of the woods.

How GW have the audacity to attack anyone else about IP is astonishing hypocrisy. Don't get me wrong, I love 40K pre-Gatherinng Storm, I just would appreciate a little more of a relaxed attitude from them.

 

(Source here )

Edited October 27, 2021 by Captain Idaho

[Jolemai]

Moved to the parent Space Marines forum for expanded discussion.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

“ Warhammer, however, are the ace rippers off of all time.”

 

QFT

[Bjorn Firewalker]

Rejuvenat treatments can be considered a spice analogue, extending the human lifespan, but without inducing mutations (the blue-in-blue eyes signifying high spice addiction) or granting prophetic visions.

 

The sandworms have no direct analogues in WH40K, though I can easily imagine the various factions' reactions, if one appeared:

 

Orks (excited): "Dat a big one! Dat a big fight comin'! Let's get it!"

 

Tyranid Hive Mind: "Capture it so its unique genes may be incorporated into our strain!"

 

Kroot shapers: "Hunt it down so I may examine its genes! They may greatly increase our survivability in the environments to be found on human-held planets!"

 

Aeldari, Drukhari: "The beast's biological waste can be processed into a drug that grants prophetic visions, without demanding we peer into the Warp, and risk drawing Slaanesh's attention upon us? We must have it!"

 

AdMech Magos Biologis: "Capture that specimen for study, at all cost! The bounty of knowledge its body offers, is immeasurable!"

 

Puritan Inquisitor: "Destroy that monster at all cost! It is an abomination, its very existence an affront to the God-Emperor!"

 

Fabius Bile: "Ooh! I wonder why everyone is fussing over such a grotesque looking creature? I might as well call in some favors, and capture one for myself."

Edited October 27, 2021 by Bjorn Firewalker

[Rik Lightstar]

Approximately 40 years ago when a group of people in the Midlands of the UK started hacking together concepts for stuff they'd like to play within their garage it didn't matter if the core concepts were lifted from elsewhere.

 

Fast forward to today (or even 20 years ago) and the entire thing has snowballed into some of the most detailed settings out there.

 

However, this company now has a legal team whose role is to advise senior management about legal concerns and threats to the business, and then pursue the required actions.

 

To attempt an analogy:

 

40 years ago your Dad is setting up a business and a friend of the family lets him use some of his land. Some of Dad's friends help with building a small workshop and warehouse on the land, including lending or donating various items to furnish it.

 

20 years later Dad wants to retire and the business gets bought by some of the staff. By this point its pretty successful, but nobody is really bothered about the borrowed items or the land except for the increased traffic.

 

Over the next 20 years the new management try to work out what exactly they own. If it's definitely theirs that's simple, but lent or donated items get trickier as they could be argued either way. As for the land, that's pretty complex too, there's no contract, so nobody really knows what to do.

 

 

That's essentially my view of the IP situation, Moorcock & Tolkien etc let them use the land, others helped either by working on things or donating ideas. GW probably don't really like the situation any more than we do.

 

Rik

[Majkhel]

An idealistic view. My thoughts about the GW approach are very in line with this article by Cory Doctorow.
I'll allow myself just this one citation: "When I take from my forebears, that’s legitimate artistic progress. When my successors do it to me, it’s theft."

 

A greater part of the WH40k setting is the fact that I always felt invited to build upon and add to it with my hobby. I will strive to continue to do so and make my hobby just that - mine. Not just part of someone else's area of profit.

[Captain Idaho]

@ Rik Lightstar: the analogy isn't quite right. GW wasn't permitted to use the land they built their empire upon, rather they weren't thrown off it because it would cause too much trouble in the end.

 

The quote I supplied above is interesting from Morcock. He just didn't really get involved with all that copyright malarkey and can't be bothered with the trouble.

 

These individual authors and private estates likely can't be bothered to sue a company. It's a big endeavour and as an author that's a lot of work.

 

***

 

I actually think the advent of Primaris and all the name and aesthetic changes is done with a view of presenting ingrained ownership to the legal system.

 

I don't mind too much that GW took ideas from so many sources to make their own but I just can't accept their behaviour to others who they deem doing the same to be acceptable. Hypocrisy really riles me.

[Karhedron]

That's essentially my view of the IP situation, Moorcock & Tolkien etc let them use the land, others helped either by working on things or donating ideas.

 

Michael Moorcock certainly didn't let them use the land. They licensed some of his concepts from the Eternal Champion novels in the mid-80s but continued to use them without permission. Look the Melnibonean warriors and you can see where the concepts of the Dark Elves and later the Drukhari came from. Tolkien established our modern idea of Elves but Moorcock was the first I am aware of to turn that concept upside down and create the idea of evil, degenerate, chaotic elves.

 

Chaos as a corrupting and mutating force comes straight from the Eternal Champion novels, right down to the 8-pointed star. Moorcock himself has said he considers GW to have stolen his IP. I don't know why he has never taken up the case legally as he has mentioned the idea at least once. He is also a strong free-speech advocate so maybe he decided against it on ideological grounds.

 

EDIT - Ninja'd by Captain Idaho. Thanks for the direct quotation Brother.

Edited October 28, 2021 by Karhedron

[Majkhel]

...Tolkien established our modern idea of Elves but Moorcock was the first I am aware of to turn that concept upside down and create the idea of evil, degenerate, chaotic elves....

 

Actually, Tolkien already touched the idea in that his orks were in fact originally elves twisted and corrupted by Morgoth's malice. 

 

 

[Captain Idaho]

Good point, with Morcock's "dark Elves" being a substantial reimagining rather than being a derivative rip off.

 

GW haven't been that inventive though. Space Marines in Rogue Trader were prison planet convicts and psychopaths if memory serves me, which is a direct analogue to Sardaukar.

 

They've since evolved it, using biblical and other ancient myths and legends as inspiration, which is fairer game, but their core was launched on the back of these literary giants. Sure they've evolved into their own thing much more now, but they wouldn't exist without building up a fan base core who liked the stuff that they stole ideas from.

 

Interestingly enough, most people don't like their own new ideas. Primaris and Cawl from a background perspective don't evoke the feeling of the 40K universe very well. I've stopped listening ever since Gathering Storm. I just can't be bothered with Age of Sigmar even if it is more original.

 

So by doing their own thing, have they moved to a position where their background is ostracising the fan base who got into 40K because of the Dune and Morcock troupes?

[Son of Sacrifice]

Pretty sure almost every piece of sci-fi fantasy from the last 40 years bears some similarities to Dune.

[Orange Knight]

Sometimes Sci-Fi universes borrow elements from other universes and are inspired by them.

Other times, like in 40k's case, they straight up copy things wholesale from them!

 

God-Emperor, Navigators, these two things not even having their names changed.

Artificial Intelligence being illegal due to there being a war with them in the past.

Nobile houses ruling worlds, personal energy shields, ect ect ect.

 

Granted I love 40k even more than I love Dune, and I LOVE Dune!

A lot of Dune was copied from Foundation, or at the very least inspired by.

 

The Imperium, a galactic empire, AI woes, Technological Regression, etc

 

I think 40k is superior to both Dune and Foundation. Even though it copies elements from both it is now so sprawling, deep, and full of beloved characters and factions.

Edited October 28, 2021 by Orange Knight

[Captain Idaho]

It's certainly subjective to prefer one over another, but I think most objective attempts to view comparisons of the Dune/Foundation/40K universes will see Dune on the top to be honest. Why? Depth, a feeling of it actually being able to exist, higher quality story telling and not economically driven background forcibly and jarringly added to the lore. Edited October 28, 2021 by Captain Idaho

[TheNewman]

I think 40k is superior to both Dune...

I'll allow it.

 

... and Foundation.

Heretic!

[Blindhamster]

 

Interestingly enough, most people don't like their own new ideas

 

Rather broad brush stroke there, what you mean to say is some people don't like it, and many of those people are incredibly loud about it.

 

As far as IP theft goes, Moorcock also believes Gemmels books are derivitive, because of the titles... he hasn't even read them (the book he says is derivitive is "the hawk eternal", presumably in relation to "the eternal champion" so apparently using the same word in a title is an issue to him...). So frankly any comment like it has to be taken with some salt. (and I note I like both of their novels)

 

There is also the fact that pretty much all sci fi is derivitive of heinleins work and pretty much all fantasy is ultimately derivitive of tolkeins. Ultimately, most concepts are so broad and vague that they were never protected and GW has had no more success protecting those same things either. GW and Moorcock are far from the only ones to use Chaos or to have it be a corrupting or mutating influence. The 8 pointed star is fair though.

 

Also, times change, the people involved change. When GW started they were a little nobody company with ties to many of the companies they took inspiration for (or outright copied) ideas from, sure they didn't have relationships with moorcock, but they DID have relationships with Chaosium, who did stormbringer, for example. Those relationships are non existent and the majority of people involved weren't around in those days, whats more its now a global company with shareholders and stakeholders that hold them accountible in a way they didn't 40 years ago.

Edited October 28, 2021 by Blindhamster

[Captain Idaho]

Well, more people dislike the new fluff than the older fluff of 40k. It's much more divisive.

 

And not just "modern" 40K. Anything new and added since the derivative stuff seems to be ill received in 40k - Draigo is of particular note.

 

But yes I concede I shouldn't use the term "most". Many, more than the older fluff, is what I meant to say.

[Helias_Tancred]

GW haven't been that inventive though. Space Marines in Rogue Trader were prison planet convicts and psychopaths if memory serves me, which is a direct analogue to Sardaukar. ....

 

Interestingly enough, most people don't like their own new ideas. Primaris and Cawl from a background perspective don't evoke the feeling of the 40K universe very well. I've stopped listening ever since Gathering Storm. I just can't be bothered with Age of Sigmar even if it is more original.

 

....

 

+1 ... Amen.

[Blindhamster]

even that sort of statement is very assumptive though. Despite starting with second edition, I really dislike most of the rogue trader lore, where I have generally liked most of the lore to come out from 3rd edition onwards. The thing is, whilst 40k lore does have its issues, its far more cohesive overall in the modern era than it ever was before. Space marines moved from their original (pretty lame) concept of prisoners forcefully inducted into space soldier program where they have harems and the like and became something IMO far more interesting, something that is far less tied to other concepts from other fantasy (though of course, things like Halo have borrowed some of the ideas)

 

Now, you can say I'm in the minority, but without hard figures to prove it, what you actually mean is, the loud people on the various forms of social media you frequent complain about stuff and perhaps your particular friend groups IRL feel that way - which is as likely to be down to echo chambers caused by people with similar views as much as anything else.

[Bryan Blaire]

I can only speak for me, but I find the great majority of GW’s fluff pales in comparison in written form (whether rule book text, Codex stuff, or BL novels) to the material it was based on, and would never say that I actually “care” about the great majority of the fluff GW produces.  It hasn’t been “good quality” from Rogue Trader forward, it certainly wasn’t better in 3rd to 5th, it’s just changed - there’s more of it now, so there’s more to compare it to and draw lines between, but it hasn’t improved or gotten worse - it’s all still pretty blah sci-fantasy tripe, with very little worth re-reading for interest compared to the greats a lot of the material was drawn from.

 

Helias, yes, there are definite and blatant connections to Dune in 40K.