Dune to Warhammer 40k Astartes

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I prefer the 1984 version.

[Burni]

I enjoyed the new film but the David Lynch version (which I love) feels like 40K more than any other film, it’s just amazing.

[Helias_Tancred]

1984 Dune is awesome. It has a steel guitar soundtrack by Toto, Sting, and quotable quotes like "Usul, we have wormsign the likes of which even GOD has never seen!"

 

I did like how Lynch made the Harkonnen over the top sadistic, evil, and just downright maniacal especially the Baron.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I enjoyed the new film but the David Lynch version (which I love) feels like 40K more than any other film, it’s just amazing.

Never seen Event Horizon, eh? It's not 40K in terms of the immediate setting but once you get into it's a perfect screen analogy for Chaos shenanigans.

 

 

++In other news, let's all try to remember that this isn't a movie review website. Film comparison to 40K? Acceptable. Discussing the relative merits of 1984, 1999, and 2021 Dune? Not Acceptable.++

Edited November 1, 2021 by Iron Father Ferrum

[phandaal]

Event Horizon is what happens when you attempt a Warp jump without your Gellar field.

[Marshal Reinhard]

I feel like the movie reinforced one of my main critcisms of the book which by comparison is handled a lot better in 40k. (I will happily acknowledge the book as one of the greatest and most influental sci-stories ever written, the obvious inspiration of Space marines (or perhaps the RT era Imperial marines is more apt) along with other classics such as Starship troopers (the book). A lot of concepts here will later be used in 40k. 

 

Anyway, the criticism is thus: Dune by far simplifies down the ability of their super soldiers too much, to be solely the product of the harshness of the environment they're raised/trained/brought up in, I felt. The Sardukar are the most feared force in the galaxy because they're from a penal colony with atrocious and rough living conditions. But next to the Fremen they're like children playing war, solely because the latter are brought up in an even harsher deadlier environment, Arrakis. 

 

40k space marines I feel, ironically to some perhaps, are handled so much better. They often share the "come from a deadly inhospitable planet environment", but then we get a lot of details/lore/worldbuilding of how these individuals, often human wretches, are turned into the towering pillars of destruction we all know and love. It just feels much more believable and well developed, regardless of what you may feel about the lore/storytelling in 40k at large.

Edited November 1, 2021 by Reinhard

[Odd-ad]

Anyway, the criticism is thus: Dune by far simplifies down the ability of their super soldiers too much, to be solely the product of the harshness of the environment they're raised/trained/brought up in, I felt. The Sardukar are the most feared force in the galaxy because they're from a penal colony with atrocious and rough living conditions. But next to the Fremen they're like children playing war, solely because the latter are brought up in an even harsher deadlier environment, Arrakis.

I think it's a fairly common trope "tough badasses from a tough place being tougher and more badass than anyone else despite having no real technology or logistical infrastructure"

 

There's an interesting blog post by the historian Bret Devereux exploring this idea in the real world, and why by and large it's nonsense:

 

https://acoup.blog/2020/01/17/collections-the-fremen-mirage-part-i-war-at-the-dawn-of-civilization/?amp=1

 

40k space marines I feel, ironically to some perhaps, are handled so much better. They often share the "come from a deadly inhospitable planet environment", but then we get a lot of details/lore/worldbuilding of how these individuals, often human wretches, are turned into the towering pillars of destruction we all know and love. It just feels much more believable and well developed, regardless of what you may feel about the lore/storytelling in 40k at large.

 

I agree that post-Rouge Trader 40k does this better.

 

Yes, the Astartes are from harsh worlds, but that's only the start; they also have genetic modifications, hypno-therapy, power armour, and incredible weaponry.

 

By Dune logic a Catachan could kill an Astartes with ease because of how harsh their world is, but in 40k it just qualifies them as an exceptional candidate to become an Astartes.

Edited November 1, 2021 by Odd-ad

[Iron Father Ferrum]

++ I have removed further conversation focusing on Dune topics rather than 40K topics because as I said before, this is not a Dune discussion board. If you wish to debate those issues with other Frater, please take it to PMs.++

[Dracos]

Verne, Wells, Burroughs  .  .  .  .  Asimov, Clarke, Heinlein  .  .  .  .  If you're going to look into the history of sci-fi, start at the birth and the beginning. 

 

Even that doesn't include greats like Shelley and Bradbury. There are no new stories, just stories retold in a new way. 

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah so GW shouldn't be so quick to issue C&D orders ;)

[phandaal]

Verne, Wells, Burroughs  .  .  .  .  Asimov, Clarke, Heinlein  .  .  .  .  If you're going to look into the history of sci-fi, start at the birth and the beginning. 

 

Even that doesn't include greats like Shelley and Bradbury. There are no new stories, just stories retold in a new way. 

 

Jack Vance. One of the greatest writers of the 20th century, contemporary and friend of many authors from the Golden Age of sci-fi.

[Doghouse]

I personally think they just straight up lifted most of the Imperium straight from Dune to be honest.

 

But on the other hand there is the context that I really do not think they thought it'd be as big as it is now back then. I was around at the time and there were all sorts of games being thrown about like pocket games like Car Wars and choose your own adventure books. Tons of stuff was aimed at the D&D crowd.

 

It's kind of like planting a seed to grow a single tree and before you know it you are stood in a forest. 

 

I'm not totally convinced that they did it with any malice or intend to rip anyone off initially, it's just a group of enthusiasts that evolved into a corporate monster. Having said that I do think that as time passed they very quickly began to try to get away with ripping off other people's work and detest what they have become recently.

 

Original marines were taken from prison planets just like Sardaukar and are also elite troops of the God Emperor so yes I can see the connection but there are so many other examples like Navigators, Lasguns, no thinking machines, the list goes on.

 

The original 40k was dune, 2000ad and Lord of the Rings in space.

 

If I were honest and had to pick between the two I would actually pick Dune over 40k any day. 

[phandaal]

I'm not totally convinced that they did it with any malice or intend to rip anyone off initially, it's just a group of enthusiasts that evolved into a corporate monster. Having said that I do think that as time passed they very quickly began to try to get away with ripping off other people's work and detest what they have become recently.

 

Original marines were taken from prison planets just like Sardaukar and are also elite troops of the God Emperor so yes I can see the connection but there are so many other examples like Navigators, Lasguns, no thinking machines, the list goes on.

 

 

This is an important point. OG 40k felt like guys who really liked the tropes of various sci-fi universes and decided to emulate that stuff in their own game. Never felt like there was any malice behind its creation.

 

Dune was a really big deal back in the day. There is no way anyone would have expected contemporary audiences not to see the obvious similarities. It was "You guys like this popular sci-fi stuff? We do too and we made it into a tabletop game!"

 

Litigious corpo types claiming GW has sole custody of these tropes is what got people up in arms.

[Helias_Tancred]

Space Marines influenced by the Sardaukar? Not even close.

 

:)

Edited Tuesday at 09:58 PM by Helias_Tancred

[dragonnext]

Well, I totally see where you're coming from with the parallels between Dune's Sardaukar and Warhammer 40k's Space Marines. It's fascinating how different sci-fi universes can influence each other.
Interviewing the creators of 40k would be epic! Hearing about their inspirations and influences firsthand would shed so much light on the universe they've built.
On another note, have you checked out what movies are out in the theaters? There might be some hidden gems worth catching between your Dune marathons and deep dives into 40k lore.

Edited May 20 by dragonnext