Breaking the Meta

[Medjugorje]

Hello brothers,

 

THIS will be a Series where we face all our foes. Each week we will discuss another enemy.

 

which units are be played by other factions and how we deal with it. Would love to hear how your impressions and experience is about that topic. Which units are good against them and which secoundaries are usually good against them. 

 

(its about the units you will see very often in such lists (especially in tournaments). For drukhari as an example I ve won a tourney with 14 grotesques but I know that nowbody else is playing them ( never heard about great success with that kind of unit in a big event) so if there is a player in your area which uses unpopular units and you have a problem to deal with them we should discuss that on a other thread.)

 

1. GK

- Strikesquads

- Dreadknights

- Inceptor squads

 

2. 1k Sons

- 10 man Terminator bomb

- 10 mam flamer squad

 

3. Drukhari

- Incubi

- Witches

- Succubus

- Raider

- Trueborn

 

4. AdMech

- Ranger

- Archaeopters

- Ballistari

- Vanguard

- Pteraxi

- Infiltrators

 

5. Orks

- Killrigs

- Deffkilla Wartrike

- Scrapjets

- Dakkajet

- buggies 

 

6. Sisters of battle

- Morv. Vahl

- Celestine

- Battle sanctum

- Dominon Squads

- Retributors

- Repentia

- Seraphim

- Sacresants

- Ephrael Stern & Xenos Scum

- Zephyrim

 

7. Space Marines

- Redemptors

- Vanguards Vets

- Relic Contemptors (Volkite)

 

*7a

the various chapters ( mainly DW + IH + DA)

 

8. Death Guard

- Relic Contemptors with Volkite

- Poxwalkers

- Mortarion

- Drones

- Terminators

- Plagueb. Crawler

- Blight howler ??

Edited October 27, 2021 by Medjugorje

[Medjugorje]

First week: 

 

How to deal with GK.

 

1. Secoundaries

- Abhor the witch is an autotake (fluffwise and in game)

- depends on mission but the GK player does not have any ways to outperform you with Obsecbodies so normally Oath / Stranglehold are good secondaries.

- each good player will deny you Oct. Data normally by screening his zones. GK dont have that much bodies so you can get 2 to 3 quaters. If you achieve 4 times then normally the game is over and Oct Data dont matter.

- Raise Banners I would say normally if the Objective markers are close to your zone and the opponent dont have that many jump shoot jump units and terrain were he can hide them close to your zone without risking getting charged.

 

2. Threats

- What you are always thinking of is the Grandmaster who will teleport if you shoot at him he could teleport the model. If you want to shoot him then always think about it ( in the movement phase) that you can shoot into another unit and watch out for any areas where he can drop his model close to places you dont want to see him.

- Mortal wounds. Do never ignore his psychic potential. With 5+++ we are in a better condition then other marines but on average 3 smites are still 4 wounds.

- +1 to wound is the psychic power i would always try to deny. Especially with the amount of shots it can hurt our dreadknoughts.

 

3. Ideas against it / take some math

- most damage in shooting comes from dmg1 or dmg2 weapons with lower AP so our relic bearers can pretty strong.

- Gravis should be pretty strong with their hig toughness against mass Str4 and with their stratagem (+1 saves against dmg1 weapons). Especially as Relic bearers with - Crux Obsidian and Icon of Heinman they should perform very well. 

- I found out that Dreadknights dont like mass attacks with ap2. So mass of shots with all variants of bolters in tacitcal docrine and mass chainsword attacks are more fearsome then 3 shots lascannon. Even MM trikes squads with 6 shots usually dont hurt them that much - or better said: his 4++ can hold if he throws a bit over average or/and use rerolls.

Edited October 26, 2021 by Medjugorje

[MegaVolt87]

You forgot DG termi list with demon engine support/ Morty. 

[Tokugawa]

You forgot DG termi list with demon engine support/ Morty.

DG are more close to gatekeepers now, not hot meta boys(DG have obviously bad matchup against Admech and TSons). If your list could win them or 50-50, your list is competitive, else not competitive.

 

Sisters TAC list is also worth to notice.

[MegaVolt87]

 

You forgot DG termi list with demon engine support/ Morty.

DG are more close to gatekeepers now, not hot meta boys(DG have obviously bad matchup against Admech and TSons). If your list could win them or 50-50, your list is competitive, else not competitive.

 

Sisters TAC list is also worth to notice.

 

 

Um, two really bad matchups while being fine everywhere else seems like a competitive faction to me. Every army has bad matchups. If for some reason they don't expect nerfs soon, don't be too invested. 

[Medjugorje]

 

 

You forgot DG termi list with demon engine support/ Morty.

DG are more close to gatekeepers now, not hot meta boys(DG have obviously bad matchup against Admech and TSons). If your list could win them or 50-50, your list is competitive, else not competitive.

 

Sisters TAC list is also worth to notice.

 

 

Um, two really bad matchups while being fine everywhere else seems like a competitive faction to me. Every army has bad matchups. If for some reason they don't expect nerfs soon, don't be too invested. 

 

imo its a gatekeeper because DG has problems with Drukhari + Admech + Tsons + GK. Admech + Tsons a bit more then the others. But on a GT or Major Event its an army which is played right now so we have to deal with them. From that standpoints we will discuss it here.

[SWORD BROTHER RYAN]

Unfortunately, I haven't been getting a lot of games in over the past year, so this thread is a great idea to know what I'm likely going to need to face these armies. Thanks for posting, and I look forward to seeing more as it comes.

[GMrx96]

First week: 

 

How to deal with GK.

 

1. Secoundaries

- Abhor the witch is an autotake (fluffwise and in game)

- depends on mission but the GK player does not have any ways to outperform you with Obsecbodies so normally Oath / Stranglehold are good secondaries.

- each good player will deny you Oct. Data normally by screening his zones. GK dont have that much bodies so you can get 2 to 3 quaters. If you achieve 4 times then normally the game is over and Oct Data dont matter.

- Raise Banners I would say normally if the Objective markers are close to your zone and the opponent dont have that many jump shoot jump units and terrain were he can hide them close to your zone without risking getting charged.

 

2. Threats

- What you are always thinking of is the Grandmaster who will teleport if you shoot at him he could teleport the model. If you want to shoot him then always think about it ( in the movement phase) that you can shoot into another unit and watch out for any areas where he can drop his model close to places you dont want to see him.

- Mortal wounds. Do never ignore his psychic potential. With 5+++ we are in a better condition then other marines but on average 3 smites are still 4 wounds.

- +1 to wound is the psychic power i would always try to deny. Especially with the amount of shots it can hurt our dreadknoughts.

 

3. Ideas against it / take some math

- most damage in shooting comes from dmg1 or dmg2 weapons with lower AP so our relic bearers can pretty strong.

- Gravis should be pretty strong with their hig toughness against mass Str4 and with their stratagem (+1 saves against dmg1 weapons). Especially as Relic bearers with - Crux Obsidian and Icon of Heinman they should perform very well. 

- I found out that Dreadknights dont like mass attacks with ap2. So mass of shots with all variants of bolters in tacitcal docrine and mass chainsword attacks are more fearsome then 3 shots lascannon. Even MM trikes squads with 6 shots usually dont hurt them that much - or better said: his 4++ can hold if he throws a bit over average or/and use rerolls.

 

For now I had just a couple of games against the 9th ed Grey Knights codex against a friend of mine (both won). We try to play as competitive as possible but for now he plays just 3 out of the 4/5 dreadknights usual lists run. Anyway here what I found out:

 

1. Secondary wise the best choice for me is oath, abhor the witch and engage. This grants a floor of 35 points (around 15 oath, 10 abhor, 10 engage) in a scenario of little interaction, even though I usually score around 41 since you will have to deal with those dreadknight. I can see an argument to take banners or stranglehold based on the mission, but I agree with Octarius being a bad choice.

The opponent is going to take a similar set of secondaries with oath replaced by the psychic action one that score 1, 2 and 4 points (1,2,3 obj) so the final score is comparable. The match is usually a pretty closed one, but you can edge it out screening against deep strike and leveraging on his small units count.

 

 

2.

•   No need to shoot the teleporting grandmaster, you have the tools to deal with him combat
•   His psychic fase will be more a buff one than an offensive one, especially when their numbers start to decrease: rather than random smite he will go for the secondary action and for significant buffs as +1 damage (always look out for this one, it will mess you up), +1 attack and redeploy (2 dreadknights can jump from one edge to the other with 2cp+power, giving him an immense location flexibility)
• Of course you will not like vortex of doom, but since he has a lot of powers to cast and does not have thousand sons reliable +1 he will concentrate on the most significant spells

3.

• Best unit overall: vanguard vets with LC/SS and ignore ap -1/-2 relic. They cannot be dealt with GK shooting or halberds and can take care of dreadknights easily. Keep them midboard and then get them to the heavy side after his redeployment tricks.
• Gravis is great against storm bolter but not the best into halberds (you see a lot of them due to the meta).
• Plasma redemptor are great, no explanation needed. With uphold they can take a punch to the chin from the dreadknight and smash him back into the ground.
• Bladeguard/terminator with champion of the feast and -1 damage relic can tank way above their points. A five man squad is enough. Always check for the +1 damage power, that is the way he can kill those units.

Edited October 27, 2021 by GMrx96

[Medjugorje]

great. THX. I really like the way this conversation goes

[Prot]

Some good thoughts. I really don’t have a lot to add for Grey Knights, but I think most if the advice is spot on. However I do think this is another area where MM dreads are under appreciated. There is actually very little true damage mitigation aside from invulnerable saves with GK. The NDKs are still susceptible to a big damage melta roll and if your dread ends up in CC, it’s still got a chance with the fist. 
 

what I’m not liking about Redemptors lately is the cost. Everything seems to die so quick that I have put more traditional dreads in my list over the redemptors. I prefer having the points for boots on the ground. 
 

in fact with my BT I have not used a Redemptor yet because if the dread success and having an additional Multimelta threat is just really good against most opponents, not just GK. Again I think BT are going to do best with lots of infantry so the cost of my vehicleS remains low in my lists. 

Edited October 28, 2021 by Prot

[Tokugawa]

High number, moderate AP dmg1 weapon(GK gatling, ork dakkajet, TSons bolter, etc)could scratch many wounds from dreads. -1d and 5++ don't work against these. Usually much more wounds than you imagined.

 

So playing dreads aggressively is risky.

[Prot]

High number, moderate AP dmg1 weapon(GK gatling, ork dakkajet, TSons bolter, etc)could scratch many wounds from dreads. -1d and 5++ don't work against these. Usually much more wounds than you imagined.

 

So playing dreads aggressively is risky.

 

 

This scenario you provide applies to almost every unit in 40k. 

 

I'd suggest you find your niche. In my case I prefer aggression with this army type over passivity. 

 

IE: If I'm flying towards your army with Impulsors loaded with blade guard, and you decide to confront my 135 point dreadnoughts with -1 damage, 5++.... well... I'm VERY okay with that.

[Urkh]

My cousin's main army is grey knights, and I've fought them many times over the years. It is very important to focus fire down units against them. They already don't have many, and each one can be powerful even with only a few men. Finishing off one unit before moving to the next and dismantling them one by one has worked every time for me, no matter the edition.

[Medjugorje]

which army should be next?

[SWORD BROTHER RYAN]

I'd personally like to hear thoughts on Drukhari.

[Medjugorje]

should we open a new thread and create a new structure?

 

like  breaking the Meta part 2: drukhari ?

I think thats better then put all into this one thread

[Urkh]

Would be similar to the unit of the week discussion threads, so I don't see a problem with having new threads for each opponent. Would help make it easier to find content as well.

[Urkh]

With the newest tournament results in and we see winning lists in multiple factions, including grey knights, what sort of strengths and weaknesses do we have against that GK list? We can start other threads for vs. The other armies in that tournament report.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

There’s a warlord trait, Grimaldus, relic bearer (skull) and strat.

[Tiger9gamer]

I am going to name my LRC the metabreaker if it does really well in my games

[Medjugorje]

With the newest tournament results in and we see winning lists in multiple factions, including grey knights, what sort of strengths and weaknesses do we have against that GK list? We can start other threads for vs. The other armies in that tournament report.

GK must be careful because we can deny their psychic power to move an additional time with their inceptors, our normal squads can only wounded on 3+ by their Nemisis Knights and Crusadersquads have more bodies for obsec. then our FnP is good against their smites. Grimaldus can be used against that +1 to wound power which is very important for them against our dreads in shooting. With Grimaldus FnP aura and 5++ we are good against their normal close combat weapon profile and great against their Nemisis Knights. And we are superior in shooting against them. And with Bombastic delivery we always get the +2 to our charges.

[Tokugawa]

GK NDKs teleport to battlefield, so they always have at least one full turn of shooting and a charge. So we need to screen the most valuable units carefully.

[Medjugorje]

and always beware of his boss can teleport one time when he gets selected as target in the shooting phase. So beware that your fully buffed squad (eradicators for example) ... his NDK character willl be porting that you dont have another target or just a few inch so that just one model of your unit can shoot at him. One time he can take his 3++ in one phase.

 

Perfect solution is to trigger his ability in the first rounds with a unit which you he doesnt have forced to move into a spot where you dont want the unit to be. For example Eradicators which can devout push back into their hiding space and lock him in combat with a unit with lots of attacks + Tannhauser bones character (2 cp stratagem).

 

destroy the witch is the perfect secoundary. automatically 15 points. You can take Banners, Retr. Oct Data against him. Retr. Oct Data often dont work against good players because screening but GK are very elite and so you force thim to take a lot of fighting power back into his deployment zone

Edited November 19, 2021 by Medjugorje

[Prot]

I have a 'meta' question for you folks; A bit off the original post topic but still relevant:

 

Where do you see Templars matching up with the White Scars?

 

I play both and admittedly am much more experienced with Scars, but there's a feeling to me like BT's would/should take this match up.

 

I don't want to say why I feel this way, I'd rather hear what you guys think of this match up!

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Templars have what it takes to beat them for sure .