Competitive BA

[INKS]

How do you all feel about the current state of BA?

What is working? What doesn't work? What are the struggles with the army. What do you think the solution is?

[Karhedron]

BAs are not in a bad place primarily because Marines are not in a bad place but we are not in a great place either. Our super-doctrine does not kick in until T3 at the earliest and unlike Space Wolves (the other Chapter in the same Assault Boat), we do not have large numbers of unique units to leverage. Our unique Characters tend to be on the mediocre side and our psychic discipline is also underwhelming.

To do well competitively, we need to maximise the good units we do have and find those that synergise well with our Trait and super doctrine. In practice you will tend to see lists that lean heavily on the some or all of the following units.

• Sanguinary Priest with Jump Pack and all the Apothecary upgrades
• Sanguinary Guard, usually running with the above
• Vanguard Veterans, usually with Claw/Shield (and maybe a TH on the Serg).
• Jump Captain with Relic Blade or Thunder hammer and Inferno Pistol
• Plasma Inceptors with Descent of Angels using the rerolls from the Captain.
• MM Attack bikes sticking close to the Captain and/or Priest
• Death Company used with Forlorn Fury as a distraction unit

There may be some other tricks I have missed but these units will often do the heavy lifting and then seasoned with other solid Astartes units like Infiltrators and Eradicators that work well in any Chapter.

Edited October 28, 2021 by Karhedron

[a_typical_hero]

Don't forget to bring a unit of Suppressors to shut down Overwatch for free on up to 3 enemy units per turn. 

 

Additionally / Alternatively a Whirlwind to make them fight last.

Edited October 29, 2021 by a_typical_hero

[Morticon]

Sadly, I have moved away from regular  (ie: not successors) BA simply because BH and WWoR net far far greater results in terms of damage output . I dont run Dante (which seems to be a staple in most comp lists) and I rarely take BA specific relics. 

I think the BA can put up a good fight, but bar spamming Sangguard we really don't have any build that is competitive.  We're that army that can currently give players a run for their money, but are always on the backfoot. 

I've been playing white scars recently in prep for a tournament, and just the speed change alone is absolutely crazy and pushes them into a different level.

 

 

And on that note, its where I think we need help. 
The +1 to charge is no real benefit since it doesn't stack with the +2 from the Chap - meaning that if we really wanted to make use of DS charging, we'd be using the latter.  The +1 to  advance  is cute but rarely helps with much considering we cant advance and charge anyway and dont have double move or similar strats.  

 

BA would be miles and miles better if they did one of two things (but ideally both).

 

First is a better, more reliable way to get into combat.  I think the BA disembark rule from 3rd ed should be back - ie: disembarking after a vehicle move. Make it so that the disembark is the move (ie: not disembark, and then a subsequent 6" move). Considering what can disembark from rhinos and other vehicles, I don't feel this is in any way oppressive.  It *literally* just adds 6" of movement. An advance and charge with one JP unit (like RG) would go a monstrously long way to redress issues to.  A WLT like the RG for advance and charge would be even better. 

 

Secondly would be something that harks back to the FC days.  We got the +1 to wound which as i said is not as good as BH and WWoR. This is deeply problematic when our "schtick" is outshone by something we can take, but otherwise should have no good reason to. However, in 3rd and 4th we had +1 to S and +1 to init.  Because of this, I would love to see a return to something representing that +1 initiative.  Maybe not a "fights first", but something like "BA models that charge always count as having charged, and can never be affected by "fights last" abilities".  This, again, isn't oppressive overall, but mitigates  certain hard counters that punish the entire focus of the army, with little recourse. 

 

Edited November 4, 2021 by Morticon

[Majkhel]

I totally agree that we should have options to go around some abilities of other armies (usually assigned to just 1 or 2 relatively cheap units!) that completely nullify one or more of our army-wide abilities. 
It's totally absurd that there are units that can seriously hamper if not straight up stop an army sometimes without even making any dice rolls...

[Helias_Tancred]

We also need several of our key stratagems changed back to pre-nerf status; we're playing with what is essentially an outdated codex supplement given what has come out in past months. Case in point, Upon Wings of Fire, Ad Mech has a stratagem which allows the same thing as it was pre-nerf 8th edition, pick up the unit and then immediately place it somewhere else on the board ... no waiting until their next movement phase as with ours. 

 

Descent of Angels, Upon Wings of Fire, and Red Rampage, all need to revert back to pre-nerf 8th edition wording & effect for starters. 

[Morticon]

We also need several of our key stratagems changed back to pre-nerf status; we're playing with what is essentially an outdated codex supplement given what has come out in past months. Case in point, Upon Wings of Fire, Ad Mech has a stratagem which allows the same thing as it was pre-nerf 8th edition, pick up the unit and then immediately place it somewhere else on the board ... no waiting until their next movement phase as with ours. 

 

Descent of Angels, Upon Wings of Fire, and Red Rampage, all need to revert back to pre-nerf 8th edition wording & effect for starters. 

 

Played against that AdMech one recently, and had hard core feels bads because of it. 

Edited November 5, 2021 by Morticon

[Helias_Tancred]

 

We also need several of our key stratagems changed back to pre-nerf status; we're playing with what is essentially an outdated codex supplement given what has come out in past months. Case in point, Upon Wings of Fire, Ad Mech has a stratagem which allows the same thing as it was pre-nerf 8th edition, pick up the unit and then immediately place it somewhere else on the board ... no waiting until their next movement phase as with ours. 

 

Descent of Angels, Upon Wings of Fire, and Red Rampage, all need to revert back to pre-nerf 8th edition wording & effect for starters. 

 

Played against that AdMech one recently, and had hard core feels bads because of it. 

 

 

All GW needs to do is FAQ those three key strats back to their 8th edition form. That would go a long way to putting us where we should be in the game ... 

We know GW is going to release another marine codex at a future point in this edition. I certainly hope they deal with us in that effort (or sooner?). 

[Rhavien]

We also need several of our key stratagems changed back to pre-nerf status; we're playing with what is essentially an outdated codex supplement given what has come out in past months. Case in point, Upon Wings of Fire, Ad Mech has a stratagem which allows the same thing as it was pre-nerf 8th edition, pick up the unit and then immediately place it somewhere else on the board ... no waiting until their next movement phase as with ours.

 

Descent of Angels, Upon Wings of Fire, and Red Rampage, all need to revert back to pre-nerf 8th edition wording & effect for starters.

That AdMech Strat has already been nerfed to next round. However you can play it at the end of any phase, which is also a great boost to the ability. So you could still shoot and or fight in the turn you are starting to redeploy.

[Karhedron]

Part of my concern about Stratagems is that we should not depend on them to be competitive. I am starting to think that Strats have gone a bit too far in 9th edition. Armies should be playable in a fluffy and effective way without stratagems. Stratagems should be for neat tricks and situational bonuses rather than being a core element to build around.

 

But that is my opinion for all factions, not just BAs.

[Helias_Tancred]

Part of my concern about Stratagems is that we should not depend on them to be competitive. I am starting to think that Strats have gone a bit too far in 9th edition. Armies should be playable in a fluffy and effective way without stratagems. Stratagems should be for neat tricks and situational bonuses rather than being a core element to build around.

 

But that is my opinion for all factions, not just BAs.

 

I agree with you 100%.

 

Unfortunately that is not the truth of 9th edition; stratagems have become near make or break, and a large contributing factor in the overall "power" of an army. Stratagems have gone too far in the game, designers like it because it's another tool in their kit when it comes to game design and the effort to better balance factions. Unfortunately its starting to sour with players, many suggesting 40k is becoming too complex and gimmicky because of them (and other factors). 

[Helias_Tancred]

The designers keep building additional layers of abilities and "things" in the newer codexes to further make the army unique ... but it's resulting in a bad case of mudflation & power creep.

Edited November 5, 2021 by Helias Tancred

[Malakithe]

How is Primaris stuff for BA? Are DC Intercessors worth a look at? Im looking at all Primaris since thats the future. Mephiston looks crazy and im sure BGV are good.

[Hintzy]

You can build a solid list with a mix Bladeguard, Redemptors, Inceptors, and Eradicators if you were set on using only Primaris. Might not be the pinnacle of BA competitive, or the 'classic' BA style, but it would absolutely be a solid list.

[Paladin777]

How is Primaris stuff for BA? Are DC Intercessors worth a look at? Im looking at all Primaris since thats the future. Mephiston looks crazy and im sure BGV are good.

The primaris chaplain on bike is also a great and well documented.

[Majkhel]

 

The primaris chaplain on bike is also a great and well documented.

True, and with our Gift of Foresight WLT he can reach that litle bit higher in terms of survivability and CC-dependability

[Karhedron]

The biker Chaplain can keep up with Jump Pack Death Company if you wish and makes a good combo.

 

Blade Guard Vets are good for any Chapter and Red Thirst really gives some punch to their MC Power Swords

 

The best Primaris unit IMHO though for Blood Angels are Plasma Inceptors. Drop a 5-man squad in T2 and use Descent of Angels to let that overcharged plasma hit on 2s! Add a Captain to control over heats and you will get a crazy amount of hits. And if you get any overheats or casualties, a Jump Pack Sanguinary Priest can heal and resurrect the squad.

[Paladin777]

Another box of inceptors is pretty high on my priority list of things to get for that very reason.

 

If that captain is a smash/relic blade captain he can provide some serious counter charge potential as well.

Edited November 8, 2021 by Paladin777

[XeonDragon]

*snip*

Because of this, I would love to see a return to something representing that +1 initiative.  Maybe not a "fights first", but something like "BA models that charge always count as having charged, and can never be affected by "fights last" abilities".  This, again, isn't oppressive overall, but mitigates  certain hard counters that punish the entire focus of the army, with little recourse. 

 

 

I thought charging units were treated as fight first, so a unit that is always treated as having charged and could never be affected by fight last abilities would always be going first? Maybe something like "is always considered to have charged and can never be made to fight last" would be good? It would mean fight last would "down grade" it to normal melee order, but not last? 

[Helias_Tancred]

The biker Chaplain can keep up with Jump Pack Death Company if you wish and makes a good combo.

 

Blade Guard Vets are good for any Chapter and Red Thirst really gives some punch to their MC Power Swords

 

The best Primaris unit IMHO though for Blood Angels are Plasma Inceptors. Drop a 5-man squad in T2 and use Descent of Angels to let that overcharged plasma hit on 2s! Add a Captain to control over heats and you will get a crazy amount of hits. And if you get any overheats or casualties, a Jump Pack Sanguinary Priest can heal and resurrect the squad.

 

I definitely want to try that! Its on my list of must-try ....

[Malakithe]

How would one use DC Intercessors? I havent looked up all the buffs and such but it seems they can get a crazy amount of attacks on a charge. Would footslogging work? All the transports are small and overcosted 

[Paladin777]

While they do get a crazy amount of attacks, I think I'd rather run jump firstborn DC. One point more, but you get 12" movement at the expense of one attack per model.

[Helias_Tancred]

How would one use DC Intercessors? I havent looked up all the buffs and such but it seems they can get a crazy amount of attacks on a charge. Would footslogging work? All the transports are small and overcosted 

 

The drawback is lack of jump packs and smaller choice of special melee weapons, but they get more attacks. It depends on what you want them to do? Forlorn Fury is a must when using a squad of primaris death company on foot. I haven't used primaris death company yet but I imagine their best use would be as an undeniable bullet sponge and distraction carnifex, whereas the older marine death company could have more killy power?

[dice4thedicegod]

How would one use DC Intercessors? I havent looked up all the buffs and such but it seems they can get a crazy amount of attacks on a charge. Would footslogging work? All the transports are small and overcosted

I’ve only used them once, 10 of them (one with hammer). Against salamanders at 1500.

 

I used forlorn fury to get them closer and then the transhuman and 5+++ strats as needed). It was very cp intensive but they soaked most of the enemy offense and did some good damage too. Definitely key in my victory. The 5+++ let them soak a huge amount of bolt fire t1 and transhuman let them neuter a redemptor dread fist on turn 2. Meanwhile, they killed 5 heavy intercessors, put 6 wounds on redemptor. Oh, they also soaked some damage from a regular intercessor unit and only died once the sally warlord pitched in.

 

I do think that I might consider 5 guys next time (with a hammer) to save on cp

[Malakithe]

My issue with firstborn is that they are firstborn. It would be fun to convert/kitbash some primaris as count-as though.