Unit of the Week: Predator Annihilator / Destructors

[Wolf Lord Loki]

We don't see many predators on the table, not sure if it's worth having separate entry's for both vehicles.

 

I know out Daemon engines are probably better however I would like us to discuss what is good about the unit and how we can effectively use it BEFORE complaining about its inadequacies

 

And I don't want people saying "just take X unit instead" this is supposed to be Tactical Advice.

 

People should be more than capable of drawing their own conclusions of what is objectively better and if they want to use them or not. /Rant

 

Edit: we have decided to bring both types of Predator under this topic as there are only minor differences between the two

Edited November 17, 2021 by Wolf Lord Loki

[Iron Sage]

An annihilator is a weapon platform that ideally should never move except in a crisis and it can be positioned to use as cover when you deploy. You can deploy infantry behind it etc.  I kind of want to talk about its limitation, but you stipulate that you really don't want that, and then I don't know much else to say. I would however claim that talking about limitations is tactical advice, but that's my opinion and it's your thread.

 

That having been said, I have never used a predator when playing Death Guard. I have an Iron Warrior annihilator though which I am mulling repainting into Thousand Sons, yet I will probably not do that, since it was the first Iron Warriors MBT I painted, and therefore have affectionate value (besides, it has Forge World Iron Warrior doors painted and glued on).

 

Edit: I also love how it looks, it is a much prettier MBT than the Primaris.....things. It looks very functional and I like that.

Edited November 12, 2021 by Iron Sage

[lansalt]

Since in 9e they can move and shoot without a -1, they can be deployed in cover and move and do damage to something to earn their points back in turn 1-2. Their 6 lascannons should allow it. The problem is how to protect them since DG lost the 5++/FNP relics. There's anything in the codex that could work?  (I have an old metal laspred that I've though it would look good next to a PBC with all those round shapes)

Edited November 13, 2021 by lansalt

[tinpact]

Huh, I never noticed the separate datasheets in the DG codex. Unfortunately, I think their biggest issue is a lack of targets moreso than a particular deficiency - as lansalt said, they do damage just fine, but you need redundancy and twelve shots for 510 points doesn't really cut it against infantry or ~9 Ork buggies. That said, with vehicle slots being reduced and Knights getting a readjustment (and the new IG and Tyranids codices, whenever they show up) I can see that changing. No Killshot or relic support vs PBCs having Plague Weapon on both main weapons does sting, though.

[Wolf Lord Loki]

An annihilator is a weapon platform that ideally should never move except in a crisis and it can be positioned to use as cover when you deploy. You can deploy infantry behind it etc. I kind of want to talk about its limitation, but you stipulate that you really don't want that, and then I don't know much else to say. I would however claim that talking about limitations is tactical advice, but that's my opinion and it's your thread.

 

I probably should be more specific.

 

You are absolutely correct in that knowing limitations is a tactical necessity but I was trying to avoid responses such as "they are rubbish compared to the Plagueburst Crawlers'.

 

Perhaps I should have said something along the lines of "don't compare it to others and just talk about using the Predator"

 

I have 2 predators that I'm looking to repurpose. I don't need to be told PBC are better - I want to get the best out of what I have.

 

A lot of us old timers have models we have picked up over the years and don't want to leave to rot on a shelf!

 

So by all means, Iron Sage, what are some of the limitations inherent within the Annihilator? :-)

 

Unfortunately, I think their biggest issue is a lack of targets moreso than a particular deficiency - as lansalt said, they do damage just fine, but you need redundancy and twelve shots for 510 points doesn't really cut it against infantry or ~9 Ork buggies. That said, with vehicle slots being reduced and Knights getting a readjustment (and the new IG and Tyranids codices, whenever they show up) I can see that changing. No Killshot or relic support.... does sting, tho.

 

Would it be a fair point to say the are TOO good at a Niche role?

 

People aren't taking as many vehicles these days and if you are shooting anything less than a super heavy or lord of war then their job is over in no time at all.

 

And if you ARE shooting at LoW or superheavy then the Annihilator is going to become priority target for your opponent?

Edited November 13, 2021 by Wolf Lord Loki

[KingYertle]

The Death Guard Annihilator has a couple abilities unique to Death Guard:

 

1) It counts as having remained stationary when it makes a normal move,

2) It ignores the -1 modifier for firing HW into engagement range

 

As far as I can tell, the first ability has zero interaction with any current rules, so the main benefit of being DG is being able to fire into combat and ignore the -1 to hit.

 

For CP Support, it has the Smokescreen keyword so for 1 CP you can make it -1 to hit and while it degrades you can spend a CP to fire on its top profile. Actually I just realized it doesn't have the Machine Spirit keyword so you Cannot spend a CP to ignore a degraded profile.

 

So if you want to play with your old toys (I started playing in 2nd edition so I understand that sentiment) what we have in the Predator is a tank that unfortunately gains little support from being a "Death Guard" tank over its basic datasheet.  You can run them cheap at 130 points with just twin lascannons, to offer some long range anti-tank firepower however 130 points for 2 lascannon shots that degrade is not great value, especially considering the lascannon's D6 damage can be underwhelming.  A twin lascannon helbrute at 135 offers more for the points.

 

What could be interesting, and potentially catch your opponent off-guard, is to play them as a "bully" and aggressively push them up the board to take advantage of their ability to ignore the -1 modifier when engaged in combat.  Or jump out of reserves and charge your enemies backline Heavy Support vehicles.  IMO the key to getting value out of them is to get them into combat with a vehicle that doesn't want to be in combat, such as something whose main weapon is Blast.

 

But the high point cost is very difficult to overcome.  For similar points their are other units that have more to offer, which is why you get the "xyz" unit is just plain better comments.

[KingYertle]

 

Would it be a fair point to say the are TOO good at a Niche role?

 

 

I think perhaps you are over estimating the effectiveness of the lascannon, which is understandable as in years past it was an excellent tank killer.

 

To put it in perspective, 4 lascannon shots into a Lemun Russ:  4 shots hitting on 3+ = 2.68 hits.  Wounding on 3+ is 1.8 wounds.  The Russ now saves on 5+ due to its new 2+ armor which equates to  1.2 unsaves wounds.  Assuming average damage of 3.5 your 170 point tank just dealt 4 wounds to the Russ.  For a tank who's purpose is to be a tank killer, the datasheet is lacking in lethality.

 

No guarantee my math here is correct. 

[lansalt]

Let's see what can do a DG predator:

• Smokescreen keyword for defensive -1 to hit
• M12
• Extend contagion range
• No -1 when shooting in melee
• The Leechspore casket relic from The Inexorable company to heal wounds from the kills of a nearby character
• If that character has Ferric Blight the predator's weapons gain -1 AP
• Putrid Detonation to blow it

I think this all points to a "predator pet" to follow a Inexorable warlord (deep striking terminator/daemon prince?) into a melee against a enemy horde supported by enemy characters/vehicles or very close to it. A dakka predator would be better, though (with the autocannon and heavy bolters gaining -1AP and +1S)

[Plague _Lord]

 

 

Would it be a fair point to say the are TOO good at a Niche role?

 

 

I think perhaps you are over estimating the effectiveness of the lascannon, which is understandable as in years past it was an excellent tank killer.

 

To put it in perspective, 4 lascannon shots into a Lemun Russ:  4 shots hitting on 3+ = 2.68 hits.  Wounding on 3+ is 1.8 wounds.  The Russ now saves on 5+ due to its new 2+ armor which equates to  1.2 unsaves wounds.  Assuming average damage of 3.5 your 170 point tank just dealt 4 wounds to the Russ.  For a tank who's purpose is to be a tank killer, the datasheet is lacking in lethality.

 

No guarantee my math here is correct. 

 

 

Damn, seems like my comment didn't get posted... basically you are right, a predator deals 4 dmg on average to a leman russ. It doesn't even do it's job well...

GW just seem to hate the trueborn vechicle chassis and the pred is one of the victims of the primarification of the space marine line.

[Tokugawa]

 

 

 

 

Would it be a fair point to say the are TOO good at a Niche role?

 

 

I think perhaps you are over estimating the effectiveness of the lascannon, which is understandable as in years past it was an excellent tank killer.

 

To put it in perspective, 4 lascannon shots into a Lemun Russ: 4 shots hitting on 3+ = 2.68 hits. Wounding on 3+ is 1.8 wounds. The Russ now saves on 5+ due to its new 2+ armor which equates to 1.2 unsaves wounds. Assuming average damage of 3.5 your 170 point tank just dealt 4 wounds to the Russ. For a tank who's purpose is to be a tank killer, the datasheet is lacking in lethality.

 

No guarantee my math here is correct.

Damn, seems like my comment didn't get posted... basically you are right, a predator deals 4 dmg on average to a leman russ. It doesn't even do it's job well...

GW just seem to hate the trueborn vechicle chassis and the pred is one of the victims of the primarification of the space marine line.

We don't need to follow the loyalist categories.

 

DG book has its own stadard:

 

Death guard-y, good. Not Death guard-y, not good.

[lansalt]

Instead of trying to use laspreds against enemy vehicles/dreads, maybe is better to find T5 targets for 6 x S10 lascannon shots (in contagion range) to wound on 2+. It could kill an elite infantry squad a turn and make back its points.

Edited November 14, 2021 by lansalt

[Wolf Lord Loki]

Any merit for giving your Annihilator some of the other weapons options?

 

It could have heavy bolter sponsons, Combi-bolter and a havok launcher.

 

Personally I would go all laz. I might give it a havok but I would keep it simple, what do you think?

[Iron Sage]

Any merit for giving your Annihilator some of the other weapons options?

 

It could have heavy bolter sponsons, Combi-bolter and a havok launcher.

 

Personally I would go all laz. I might give it a havok but I would keep it simple, what do you think?

I think that was a good choice back when the armour rules were different. Back when you could lose a weapon sponson after getting hit. Then it would be very practical to have a combi bolter or indeed a havoc on it. But now it's less of a necessity, but if you have 5 extra points, you could definitely do worse than a havoc I guess. However, it needs to be stated that an annihilator is 170 points. With a havoc it's 175. A Plague burst crawler costs that with its most potent weaponry. A bad comparison perhaps, but the defiler is practically the same and will be easier to use as you can advance with it alongside your infantry.

 

In my opinion, the main issue of the Predator is actually it's resilience. (it's lascannons have been mentioned by others, but I find it's softness maybe worse) It has 3 + armour ,  T7 and 11 wounds. This is a problem in 9th edition where Damage "plural" weapons are so common. I have always found it absurd that the superior technology of the predator is so inferior in resilience to the more mundane Leman Russ, but that is how it is. It really should have had 2+ AV and a couple more wounds or some other damage mitigation rule.

But yes, I find it problematic that a predator cannot be expected to win a tank duel between two tanks where each tank shoots at each other for maybe 1-2 rounds.  Because it's speed advantage is not well implemented in the rules and so on.

 

But I was maybe too negative here. Sorry.

Edited November 16, 2021 by Iron Sage

[lansalt]

As i said above, I think a dakkapred (destructor with HB sponsons) is the current best version of the Predator. It's the cheapest loadout, high amount of shots with decent S, and the DG rules in close range make them more effective.

The Predator seems to be more of an anti-infantry light tank than a true MBT, is better suited to hunt elite infantry than trade blows with other tanks or even dreadnought-equivalents.

[Wolf Lord Loki]

As i said above, I think a dakkapred (destructor with HB sponsons) is the current best version of the Predator. It's the cheapest loadout, high amount of shots with decent S, and the DG rules in close range make them more effective.

The Predator seems to be more of an anti-infantry light tank than a true MBT, is better suited to hunt elite infantry than trade blows with other tanks or even dreadnought-equivalents.

I did wonder about making this thread about Predators in general so that pro/ cons/ target selection could be discussed in relation to Laz Preds or Dakka Preds.

 

Would anyone be in favour of that or who would prefer i keep them separate?

[lansalt]

I think both variants are so similar it would be best to keep all discussion about predators in this thread. How to support/buff them should be pretty much identical, unless it's used as a sniping tank from the deployment zone.

[Special Officer Doofy]

Yeah I would combine them. I got nothing constructive to say about predators. They suck compared to other options.

[Wolf Lord Loki]

I think both variants are so similar it would be best to keep all discussion about predators in this thread. How to support/buff them should be pretty much identical, unless it's used as a sniping tank from the deployment zone.

I have amended the topic to include both types for discussion

Edited November 17, 2021 by Wolf Lord Loki

[Special Officer Doofy]

I bet if they ever redo the chaos predator, it will get better rules haha.

[Wolf Lord Loki]

Yeah I would combine them. I got nothing constructive to say about predators. They suck compared to other options.

So Putrid -what about Predators is so bad? If you take them in isolation rather than saying that X-unit is better?

 

Is it simply not a case of they are bad, just not as good as others?

[Plague _Lord]

 

Yeah I would combine them. I got nothing constructive to say about predators. They suck compared to other options.

So Putrid -what about Predators is so bad? If you take them in isolation rather than saying that X-unit is better?

 

Is it simply not a case of they are bad, just not as good as others?

 

 

 

It's all been said here already:

- They can't be buffed

- The las predator is really bad at killing tanks

- They have a pretty bad stat line (ie anything that looks at the is gonna kill em)

- The Autocannon pred is also pretty bad for the cost 

- No stratagem support

 

I liked an autocannon with las sposons pred in the past but tbh the game is so killy now that anything without damage reduction or an invul save is dead in the water. Add to that the absurd cost of the old marine chassiss and we have a bad and neglected unit... I mean come on, why isn't it core at least?

[Special Officer Doofy]

 

Yeah I would combine them. I got nothing constructive to say about predators. They suck compared to other options.

So Putrid -what about Predators is so bad? If you take them in isolation rather than saying that X-unit is better?

 

Is it simply not a case of they are bad, just not as good as others?

All of it. Compared to the PBC they are really bad. I know you wanted to avoid the conversation, but it's pretty much the same damage output and points (4 Las vs 2 entropy and mortars with Plague weapons and no LoS) for way less durability (less toughness, no invuln or damage reduction). PBC don't get our faction bonus (which is dumb), but it's pretty worthless on Predators. If your predator is already tagged, it's probably toast anyways. Cherry on top, the PBC is one of the best looking models in 40k and the predator is old and dated.

 

I personally think not comparing the unit to other units is pointless. It's what gives something a value. Points constantly change, more so than datasheet stats and rules. So it's hard to look at a points value alone and determine weather a unit is good or bad. If Death Guard did not have PBC's, or PBC were 50pts higher, then that would give the predator more value for it still being the same point cost. I just think it barely kills enough for its points while not having any of the staying power in an ever increasing damage and codex creep game.

[Wolf Lord Loki]

 

 

Yeah I would combine them. I got nothing constructive to say about predators. They suck compared to other options.

So Putrid -what about Predators is so bad? If you take them in isolation rather than saying that X-unit is better?

 

Is it simply not a case of they are bad, just not as good as others?

All of it. Compared to the PBC they are really bad. I know you wanted to avoid the conversation, but it's pretty much the same damage output and points (4 Las vs 2 entropy and mortars with Plague weapons and no LoS) for way less durability (less toughness, no invuln or damage reduction). PBC don't get our faction bonus (which is dumb), but it's pretty worthless on Predators. If your predator is already tagged, it's probably toast anyways. Cherry on top, the PBC is one of the best looking models in 40k and the predator is old and dated.

 

I personally think not comparing the unit to other units is pointless. It's what gives something a value. Points constantly change, more so than datasheet stats and rules. So it's hard to look at a points value alone and determine weather a unit is good or bad. If Death Guard did not have PBC's, or PBC were 50pts higher, then that would give the predator more value for it still being the same point cost. I just think it barely kills enough for its points while not having any of the staying power in an ever increasing damage and codex creep game.

I see your point about its overcosted and underequipped compared to other units that are in the same support slot.

 

My main desire with asking people to talk about these in isolation is to get them to explain their reasons.

Too many threads like this just fall into "dont take this unit, it's cr@p- take X instead" no reasoning, no justification.

 

Where the real issue is not that the Predator is rubbish, it's just that the PBC is much better in key areas.

 

Your point that points values change is good because if they ammended the points values of either model your reasons remain sound

[Wolf Lord Loki]

With the Annihilator being a bit niche does the Destructor have a roll as an infantry remover?

 

With 2 heavy bolters, predator autocannon (2d3 shots and damage 3), combi bolter and a havok launcher....it gives the impression of being able to do some damage with sheer number of dice.

 

Plus each failed save from the bigger guns is equivalent to one dead marine unlike the lascannon which could occasionally fail to kill what it hits in the marine equivalents

[lansalt]

With the Annihilator being a bit niche does the Destructor have a roll as an infantry remover?

 

With 2 heavy bolters, predator autocannon (2d3 shots and damage 3), combi bolter and a havok launcher....it gives the impression of being able to do some damage with sheer number of dice.

 

Plus each failed save from the bigger guns is equivalent to one dead marine unlike the lascannon which could occasionally fail to kill what it hits in the marine equivalents

I think so, a dakka pred in contagion range + a Ferric Blight warlord nearby should be effective against heavy infantry like Gravis. If the enemy charges it, it can fire a decent overwatch or with no -1 in melee. And when it dies, Putrid Detonation forces it to explode taking with it weakened close units.