Unit of the Week: Predator Annihilator / Destructors

[Plague _Lord]

 

 

 

Yeah I would combine them. I got nothing constructive to say about predators. They suck compared to other options.

So Putrid -what about Predators is so bad? If you take them in isolation rather than saying that X-unit is better?

 

Is it simply not a case of they are bad, just not as good as others?

All of it. Compared to the PBC they are really bad. I know you wanted to avoid the conversation, but it's pretty much the same damage output and points (4 Las vs 2 entropy and mortars with Plague weapons and no LoS) for way less durability (less toughness, no invuln or damage reduction). PBC don't get our faction bonus (which is dumb), but it's pretty worthless on Predators. If your predator is already tagged, it's probably toast anyways. Cherry on top, the PBC is one of the best looking models in 40k and the predator is old and dated.

 

I personally think not comparing the unit to other units is pointless. It's what gives something a value. Points constantly change, more so than datasheet stats and rules. So it's hard to look at a points value alone and determine weather a unit is good or bad. If Death Guard did not have PBC's, or PBC were 50pts higher, then that would give the predator more value for it still being the same point cost. I just think it barely kills enough for its points while not having any of the staying power in an ever increasing damage and codex creep game.

I see your point about its overcosted and underequipped compared to other units that are in the same support slot.

 

My main desire with asking people to talk about these in isolation is to get them to explain their reasons.

Too many threads like this just fall into "dont take this unit, it's cr@p- take X instead" no reasoning, no justification.

 

Where the real issue is not that the Predator is rubbish, it's just that the PBC is much better in key areas.

 

Your point that points values change is good because if they ammended the points values of either model your reasons remain sound

 

 

Well I think everyone that contributed has actually given valid points why it's trash and why other options are better. No one said "predator bad, take PBC" without an explanation...

 

And the REAL issue is that the Predator is acutally just rubbish even when you take out other options out of the equation. 4 wounds on average to a Leman Russ is piss poor for a dedicated anti tank platform  that doesn't interact with any other unit from our army.

 

It's actually quite funny when you compare both predator varints to eachother - The autocannon one has a 30% chance of causing at least 5 dmg to a leman russ, while the lascannon one has a 40% chance of dealing at least 5dmg (of course with a higher ceiling). The probabilty of both doing little to no damage against a battle tank is more or less the same. 

 

I think some are trying too hard to find the bright side of bad and neglected by GW unit.

[Plague _Lord]

 

With the Annihilator being a bit niche does the Destructor have a roll as an infantry remover?

 

With 2 heavy bolters, predator autocannon (2d3 shots and damage 3), combi bolter and a havok launcher....it gives the impression of being able to do some damage with sheer number of dice.

 

Plus each failed save from the bigger guns is equivalent to one dead marine unlike the lascannon which could occasionally fail to kill what it hits in the marine equivalents

I think so, a dakka pred in contagion range + a Ferric Blight warlord nearby should be effective against heavy infantry like Gravis. If the enemy charges it, it can fire a decent overwatch or with no -1 in melee. And when it dies, Putrid Detonation forces it to explode taking with it weakened close units.

 

 

Ironically again, maths say that the dakka pred is worse at killing gravis than the las pred...

 

Both units on average kill 1 gravis marine... And the laspred is a bit cheaper... The best loadout for killing gravis is autocannon on top and lascannon sposons, buy you are still on average killing 1 gravis marine.

 

Holy Nurgle I thought these things costed around 140points, but they actually go up to the 180 range!? Worst unit in codex sadly. Even the Land Raider is better than this (same shooting, much tougher, can transport etc.)

[Iron Sage]

I my opinion, it is better if we just moved to the next unit. There is only so much you can say about the Predator. One can note that it has a very weak stat line, lacking resilience and with not enough lethal weaponry to mitigate the soft target that it is. And worse, it has no stratagem support. How to use it if you want to use it we have probably covered by now. At least, I, cannot see what we are missing.

 

I hope that it will get stratagem support in Codex Chaos Space Marines. I really like the tank. It looks great. But you can ever really use it in very friendly games as it is now. I would love that to change, but I am not too hopeful due to current (seemingly) GW policy on First Born vehicles.

[lansalt]

 

 

With the Annihilator being a bit niche does the Destructor have a roll as an infantry remover?

 

With 2 heavy bolters, predator autocannon (2d3 shots and damage 3), combi bolter and a havok launcher....it gives the impression of being able to do some damage with sheer number of dice.

 

Plus each failed save from the bigger guns is equivalent to one dead marine unlike the lascannon which could occasionally fail to kill what it hits in the marine equivalents

I think so, a dakka pred in contagion range + a Ferric Blight warlord nearby should be effective against heavy infantry like Gravis. If the enemy charges it, it can fire a decent overwatch or with no -1 in melee. And when it dies, Putrid Detonation forces it to explode taking with it weakened close units.

 

 

Ironically again, maths say that the dakka pred is worse at killing gravis than the las pred...

 

Both units on average kill 1 gravis marine... And the laspred is a bit cheaper... The best loadout for killing gravis is autocannon on top and lascannon sposons, buy you are still on average killing 1 gravis marine.

 

Holy Nurgle I thought these things costed around 140points, but they actually go up to the 180 range!? Worst unit in codex sadly. Even the Land Raider is better than this (same shooting, much tougher, can transport etc.)

 

I know is bottom tier and for the value a Hauler/Crawler would be better. The idea is trying to find a viable target for Predators so they can at least make back their points in a friendly game.

 

I've not tried to calculate it, but have you taken in your math the effect of -1T contagions? It seems to me that the 2d3 predator autocannon shots and 6 heavy bolter shots should kill more than 1 T4 gravis marine in a squad. Even better if there's an extra -1AP thanks to Ferric Blight.

[Plague _Lord]

 

 

 

With the Annihilator being a bit niche does the Destructor have a roll as an infantry remover?

 

With 2 heavy bolters, predator autocannon (2d3 shots and damage 3), combi bolter and a havok launcher....it gives the impression of being able to do some damage with sheer number of dice.

 

Plus each failed save from the bigger guns is equivalent to one dead marine unlike the lascannon which could occasionally fail to kill what it hits in the marine equivalents

I think so, a dakka pred in contagion range + a Ferric Blight warlord nearby should be effective against heavy infantry like Gravis. If the enemy charges it, it can fire a decent overwatch or with no -1 in melee. And when it dies, Putrid Detonation forces it to explode taking with it weakened close units.

 

 

Ironically again, maths say that the dakka pred is worse at killing gravis than the las pred...

 

Both units on average kill 1 gravis marine... And the laspred is a bit cheaper... The best loadout for killing gravis is autocannon on top and lascannon sposons, buy you are still on average killing 1 gravis marine.

 

Holy Nurgle I thought these things costed around 140points, but they actually go up to the 180 range!? Worst unit in codex sadly. Even the Land Raider is better than this (same shooting, much tougher, can transport etc.)

 

I know is bottom tier and for the value a Hauler/Crawler would be better. The idea is trying to find a viable target for Predators so they can at least make back their points in a friendly game.

 

I've not tried to calculate it, but have you taken in your math the effect of -1T contagions? It seems to me that the 2d3 predator autocannon shots and 6 heavy bolter shots should kill more than 1 T4 gravis marine in a squad. Even better if there's an extra -1AP thanks to Ferric Blight.

 

 

My calculations were of a fair 1v1 firefight. If you start to add in our own buffs then we fall into the rabbit hole of counting all possible scenarios (I.E. the target unit is also buffed). I don't think a pred can survive till you can actually get anything into contagion range... and even so the the autocannon wounds the same and the heavy bolters would get a marginal buff (that can be in turn transhumaned for example).

 

I've really tried to find a good target for the destructor and it looks like ogryn (not bulgryn!!) might be what it's semi decent at killing...

[Wolf Lord Loki]

Has anyone tried mixing up the sponsons this edition?

 

Traditionally we have always matched the sponsons to the main gun. But now it's about damage output. You might get more millage out of lascannons on a Destructor or anti infantry guns on an Annihilator.

 

One last pondering before we move on!