General late '21/early '22 balance discussion

[NemesorSobekta]

How has it affected anyone's army lists? 

Had putting MWBD on destroyers made them more useful to you? Have you used more of them? Do you add more technomancers to use RoR on destroyer units?

Edited January 21, 2022 by Daimyo-Phaeron Lenoch

[dice4thedicegod]

How has it affected anyone's army lists?

 

Had putting MWBD on destroyers made them more useful to you? Have you used more of them? Do you add more technomancers to use RoR on destroyer units?

I’ve decided to try and have a technomancer (w/ cloak) sitting between 6 skorpekhs out front and 3 lokhust and one heavy lokhust behind. See if two rites of reanimation (for a cp) can make them hard to shift. (Would never have played a big unit of lokhusts before)

[Mandragola]

I think it has made technomancers much more interesting because now they can revive significantly more expensive models. This does make something like a Lokhust squad with a heavy destroyer a much better prospect.

 

I think a number of the special characters are buffed. Anrakyr is far better now he buffs skorpekhs and wraiths, both with +1A and with a now-relevant warlord trait giving rerolls to charges. Szeras gains a lot because he's a relatively good fighter, has a respectable gun, and can now buff and revive much more useful targets. His Enduring Will trait (which you'll always have to buy, thanks to Royal Court) also means he's likely to stick around much longer than a Technomancer usually would.

 

I think this might somewhat reduce the requirement for chronomancers, relative to before. Maybe it makes sense to go for loads of Wraiths with Anrakyr and Szeras. It could even be worth buying guns for the Wraiths, so it's not a waste when Szeras buffs their BS (as he's otherwise certain to do!).

 

So far this is all theoretical for me, unfortunately. My army is still undergoing very slow construction. I'm currently working on a unit of 10 Lychguard who actually seem somewhat less good now so much other stuff is also core. They might remain a useful anvil-style unit.

Edited November 30, 2021 by Mandragola

[Captain Idaho]

Skorpekh are big beneficiaries to being Core, as Technomancer revival along with Disruption Fields really boosts them up. If you take a Catacomb Command Barge then they also work well alongside it.

 

Interesting what has been said about Chronomancers. Yes their role is somewhat diminished but I think they still provide a solid role alongside their Technomancers. Plus their gun is pretty good. :)

 

Will be interesting to know if they are less mandatory than before for Skorpekh.

Edited December 3, 2021 by Captain Idaho

[Mandragola]

Skorpekhs and wraiths do benefit a lot, though I’m not sure which unit gets the most help.

 

Triarch praetorians are an interesting one because they gained core but still don’t have dynasty. So they are eligible to get buffs now, but only from special character dynastic agents. They can be repaired but only by Szeras. There’s still the issue that they’re fast abs might leave buffs behind.

 

I think this suggests some different combos to consider. Destroyers will benefit a lot from a CCB and a technomancer with cloak keeping up with them. Praetorians would prefer to hang out with Anrakyr and Szeras. Actually I think Anrakyr and Szeras are both so good that it probably makes sense to take them now, and to build an army around them. Praetorians in that army would be seriously scary.

 

They do still lack an invulnerable save and Orikan is still the only guy who can give it to them. At only 20 points more than a standard chronomancer he might be worth it, though he is annoyingly slow and hasn’t got a gun. There might be times when he gets empowered and beats something up but he never gets all that badass. It might be better to just live without the invulnerable save and buy more fighty dudes.

Edited December 4, 2021 by Mandragola

[Malakithe]

Skorpekhs and wraiths do benefit a lot, though I’m not sure which unit gets the most help.

 

Triarch praetorians are an interesting one because they gained core but still don’t have dynasty. So they are eligible to get buffs now, but only from special character dynastic agents. They can be repaired but only by Szeras. There’s still the issue that they’re fast abs might leave buffs behind.

 

I think this suggests some different combos to consider. Destroyers will benefit a lot from a CCB and a technomancer with cloak keeping up with them. Praetorians would prefer to hang out with Anrakyr and Szeras. Actually I think Anrakyr and Szeras are both so good that it probably makes sense to take them now, and to build an army around them. Praetorians in that army would be seriously scary.

 

They do still lack an invulnerable save and Orikan is still the only guy who can give it to them. At only 20 points more than a standard chronomancer he might be worth it, though he is annoyingly slow and hasn’t got a gun. There might be times when he gets empowered and beats something up but he never gets all that badass. It might be better to just live without the invulnerable save and buy more fighty dudes.

What are you thinking a list like that would look like?

[Mandragola]

I've been playing around with lots of lists. Here's a version.

 

I've been playing around with lots of lists. Here's a version.

 

 

 

Eternal Expansionist Patrol

 

Anrakyr the Traveller 140

 

5 Gauss Immortals 85

 

10 Lychguard 280

 

7 Scarabs 105

 

5 Wraiths 175

 

 

Eternal Expansionist Vanguard

 

Illuminor Szeras 160

 

6 Skorpekh Destroyers 210

 

6 Skorpekh Destroyers 210

 

Plasmacyte 15

 

C'tan Shard of the Nightbringer 370

 

10 Triarch Praetorians 250

 

 

The basic idea behind this list is to throw too many big threats forward for the enemy to deal with. I've ended up cutting out warriors completely for now, because they just seem kind of soft. T5 3+ wounds on various elite models are actually cheaper than the T4 4+ wounds warriors come with, so they don't currently seem to reward you with either durability or damage output. And while it's true that the enemy will fire D2 weapons at 2-wound guys, they'd probably always do that anyway, and fire D1 stuff at warriors if I had them.

 

The army has six threatening units, plus a couple of characters who aren't entirely harmless. I'm not too fixed on the actual mix of those threatening units - for example I could swap any of them out for Flayed Ones if that seemd best. This is really a mix of stuff so I've got a variety of abilites 

 

Weirdly I find myself with no relics, which might be wrong. But the principle is that instead of something like an overlord with the relic orb I'm just taking more stuff.

[Bonzi]

I think the biggest winners of the new CORE units is our HQ slot. Previously out HQs felt stifled because who they could buff was very very limited. With an expanded list of units that their auras and abilities work on Overlords, CCBs, Technomancers, Lords, and Royal Wardens all have a lot more use outside of trying to optimize the output of warrior blobs.

 

I have found myself taking Hand of the Phaeron in every game because now I can MWBD units like Destroyers or Skorpeth who can get some real mileage out of the buff. Plus, with more threats on the table like Destroyers and Skorpeth, my Immortals and Scarbs are lasting longer and doing more for me because there are bigger threats my opponent needs to deal with. I was stunned in a game yesterday at how much better and more useful my Immortals felt when they were allowed to do the job of holding points and protecting my backfield, rather than trying to make them do real damage because they were the only units I could buff. Plus with the points saved by dropping warrior blobs I have tons of spare points to invest in harder hitting units.

Edited December 4, 2021 by Bonzi

[Stupidity]

I'm happy the Necron got their much needed buff but what am I going to do with my warrior blobs now? My army was built around Using A CCB to buff Tomb blades and warriors...

Oh well, at least my wraiths can be raised now.  

 

Edit: Probably going to need another Technomancer considering my entire army is basically core lol. 

Edited December 4, 2021 by Stupidity

[Bonzi]

I'm happy the Necron got their much needed buff but what am I going to do with my warrior blobs now? My army was built around Using A CCB to buff Tomb blades and warriors...

Oh well, at least my wraiths can be raised now.

 

Edit: Probably going to need another Technomancer considering my entire army is basically core lol.

I don't think this update has made warriors bad, it's just that they are no longer our only viable build.

[Mandragola]

 

I'm happy the Necron got their much needed buff but what am I going to do with my warrior blobs now? My army was built around Using A CCB to buff Tomb blades and warriors...

Oh well, at least my wraiths can be raised now.

 

Edit: Probably going to need another Technomancer considering my entire army is basically core lol.

I don't think this update has made warriors bad, it's just that they are no longer our only viable build.

 

Actually I do think the update makes Warriors bad - relative to other options. Or maybe it's more correct to say warriors were bad before this update and remain bad, but that maybe now there are some good choices.

 

The point of warriors is really that they are meant to be tough, but they aren't especially. If you want cheap wounds to screen then scarabs give you far more of them on a faster chassis, better at getting in the way. If you want tough wounds then Skorpekhs, Praetorians and Lychguard cost roughly the same price per wound as warriors, with a T5 3+ profile (and a 4++ on the Lychguard).

 

It's true you can improve warriors' durability with various characters and other tricks but those things cost points, and now they are often applicable to other units anyway. 10 Lychguard with shields cost quite a bit less than 20 warriors with a Chronomancer - about enough of a difference actually to bring in a Technomancer to revive them.

 

Meanwhile all these units very seriously out-damage warriors and are also often faster, or fly or whatever.

 

The end result is that I think it's pretty difficult to justify taking lots of warriors in Necron lists. They just don't really have a niche. Immortals kind of do, as they've got pretty respectable firepower for their cost, that T5 3+ profile and a much lower cost, meaning they can be used for actions and objective sitting without feeling like you're wasting anything.

[Ahzek451]

Generally agreed with the above. The only niche I can dig for(and I am digging) is body count for holding objectives. 

[Tyriks]

Warriors have been great in small sized games for me - but that's because they're small games. In 2000pt games I am unimpressed by them. I usually take Immortals just to fill out my troops slot cheaper so I can take more good stuff, especially now that a lot of that stuff has Core.

[Galron]

Having just finished a league which capped with a bigger tournament and the league straddled the Core update, I can safely say wow. 

For the majority of the league I was using a patrol or outrider based on 2 5- 6 man Tomb Blades and a cloak technomancer. It was extremely fast and had a lot of firepower plus I could bring dudes back. I used warriors exactly only once because I knew my opponent well and what he would be bringing and how he would be using it(lets just say he is a creature of habit) I wanted warriors to be a speedbump to protect my corner which they did and then they quickly melted under  blob of genestealers.

 

Having Core on my TB was fantastic and I was able to have my lightning fast army and it was ridiculously effective and I had exactly two losses using it, the Nids guy(and I got him down to a single swarmlord and a nercron silver tide that had 45 warriors of whom I killed 212 of.

 

Then came the Core update. I already was planning on using Skorpekhs and Wraiths and these put my army into overdrive. I went from steady secure wins to absolute maulings. My last three league games didnt go past turn 3 and off hand I dont think I scored less than 90 points. I was even screwing around on my last one and brought a Seraptek Heavy Construct to give me a disadvantage. 

 

In the tournie I fielded two technomancers with cloaks and one with Implacable Conqueror and a CCB with the increased aura trait and Pharon. The entire purpose of my HQs was buffing my death ball or Skorpekhs and Wraiths. It worked really well the first game giving me a 94-40 win vs Blood Angels. Second game against knights wasnt so hot as he had an answer for everything, I got no cover saves, he rerolled hits in close combat, had regen on everything, had super flamers and exploding 6s D2 guns on all his big guys and I had made a mistake in not realizing in 9th that melee doesnt block LOS like it did in every earlier edition and he was able to snipe a technomancer who I though was safe on the other side of a grand melee. Even still, first round of the game with the extra move granted by sudden storm, the extra inch from relentless march and wraiths and Skorpekhs getting my will be done and the nightbringer jumping in, I managed to kill 2 Armingers and one big and have a third arminger tied up in combat. I still won on points but by the end all I had left were 5 immortals and a technomancer. Third game was at the top table. I nova'd my army really strongly in turn 1, made a huge mistake that I am still kicking myself for, but my deathball and units still managed to kill Ariman, 9 out of 10 rubric terminators, drop a contemptor down to 1, 4 out of 5 rubric marines, a spawn, do major damage to some warp beast thing, lock up a buttload of stuff in close combat. My mistake was I split my forces in my death ball. It only works when the support HQs are there to do support. I should have ignored the beast thing and contemptor in the middle(I forgot they dont bracket anyway) and with the wraiths I would have been able to completely clear a corner before turn 2 but I got greedy and didnt realize how sick 1k son spawn are. It was still a very close game ending with a loss 45-53(I think). 

 

The Core change is amazing and has brought Necrons up to a high T2 if not low T1 army. I dont see why I would ever take anything but technomancers out of the cryptek line. They just have too much utility and the mobility to keep up with our fast new-core units. I have said elsewhere, Wraiths are now a highly effective shock troop with(when buffed and in the right protocol) a 14" move and skorpekhs with a 10" move on the first turn. Throw in the Implacable Conqueror trait for reroll charges and you likely will get some 1st turn charges if you want to. Having a second technomancer floating in a wing element with locust and heavy locusts and a bodyguard of tomb blades can really do some damage. 

[Bonzi]

The Core change is amazing and has brought Necrons up to a high T2 if not low T1 army. I dont see why I would ever take anything but technomancers out of the cryptek line. They just have too much utility and the mobility to keep up with our fast new-core units. I have said elsewhere, Wraiths are now a highly effective shock troop with(when buffed and in the right protocol) a 14" move and skorpekhs with a 10" move on the first turn. Throw in the Implacable Conqueror trait for reroll charges and you likely will get some 1st turn charges if you want to. Having a second technomancer floating in a wing element with locust and heavy locusts and a bodyguard of tomb blades can really do some damage.

I would agree that CORE has boosted us but I would really disagree that it has put us in Tier 1 contention. Drukkari, Ad Mech, Orks, Sisters, Grey Knights, and T Sons all easily overmatch us in the breadth and quality of their dexes while we are still saddled with a huge number weaknesses. I'd also argue that of the new 9th Ed dexes, the only ones we have been moved above is Space Marines, Blood Angels, and Space Wolves. Everything else that's new still outclasses us unless you go super hard into a skew build.

 

The core update was a wonderful thing but it was little more than a bandaid on what's wrong with our dex. I do hope we see some point reductions when the update comes out in January.

[Stupidity]

 

The core update was a wonderful thing but it was little more than a bandaid on what's wrong with our dex. I do hope we see some point reductions when the update comes out in January.

 

 

I'd love to see some units that already had core get even a single point drop now that they are meh targets for buffs. 

[dice4thedicegod]

Warriors and lychguard might like a point drop… but I’d really like an obelisk drop. I mean, they cost it higher than a monolith!?

[Lord_Ikka]

What is really holding the Necrons back is that unlike say, Space Marines, there are comparatively very few benefits for even units with CORE. You have a movement effect in Relentless March, combat effects in My Will Be Done and The Lord's Will, and strats that effect movement like Dimensional Corridor and Prismatic Dimensional Breach, or combat effects Relentless Onslaught and Disruptor Fields. Add-in the additional bonus to revival for a Technomancer and that is less than ten abilities that use CORE as a trigger/selector. Marines have a lot more options that directly effect combat, with the re-rolls from Captains/LTs, aura abilities from Ancients/the Wisdom of the Ancients strat, various Chaplain's Litanies, and psychic help from Might of Heroes. 

 

Necron abilities that effect CORE units

Relentless March: A good ability, getting an extra 1" to move/advance is nothing to sneer at. Makes our fast, new CORE units even faster.

My Will Be Done/Lord's Will: Probably the biggest change and possible list shifter, handing out mods to Hit and re-rolling 1s to Hits is good for anything. Placing a cheap Overlord or Lord with some Lokhusts gives them some really good buffs.

Adaptive Strategy: Possibly useful in niche situations, getting out units like Lokhusts to get out of combat and then shoot/charge in again 

Dimensional Corridor: Requires a Monolith, which unfortunately isn't a good option right now. Otherwise, could be a good re-positioning strat to get a melee unit (that has possibly been buffed by a Chronomancer) into charge range

Prismatic Dimensional Breach: Requires either a Monolith or a Night Scythe, so slightly better than Dimensional Corridor, but does also require a unit to be in Reserves. Risky in my view, but could be a good surprise if your Scythe can survive and get close.

Relentless Onslaught: Only Warriors with flayers and Immortals with blasters can use this because of the Rapid Fire restriction, so useless for any of the new CORE units

Disruption Fields: Great, no other word for it. Getting a +1 to Strength is a good bonus, and can push your Skorpekhs/Ophidians/Wraiths/Praetorians into new to Wound brackets depending on what they are fighting against. 

 

Its pretty clear that the Necron codex wasn't written for CORE to be a benefit, or build around buffing CORE units, like SM. So even with the update, we are not as competitive because our codex wasn't designed to utilize the update as well as others. I'm not saying that the update isn't helpful, as I quite like being able to pop Disruption Fields on a unit of Skorpekh that may have lost their Plasmacyte (or even do it with the Plasmacyte's buff and up my big sword boys to S9), but it isn't going to radically change any of my thoughts about the army. What it will do is possibly switch me from running big warrior blocks to Immortals, freeing up some points to invest in further Elite/Fast Attack units to get board control. 

Edited December 11, 2021 by Lord_Ikka

[Stupidity]

Prismatic Dimensional Breach: Requires either a Monolith or a Night Scythe, so slightly better than Dimensional Corridor, but does also require a unit to be in Reserves. Risky in my view, but could be a good surprise if your Scythe can survive and get close.

 

Unless they changed the rules, Using Prismatic Breach, Core units can deploy out of Scythes the same turn they deploy. No surviving required and closer than 9".  Not sure anything likes doing that as much as a blob of 40 Gauss Reaper Warriors does though. 

[Lord_Ikka]

 

Prismatic Dimensional Breach: Requires either a Monolith or a Night Scythe, so slightly better than Dimensional Corridor, but does also require a unit to be in Reserves. Risky in my view, but could be a good surprise if your Scythe can survive and get close.

 

Unless they changed the rules, Using Prismatic Breach, Core units can deploy out of Scythes the same turn they deploy. No surviving required and closer than 9".  Not sure anything likes doing that as much as a blob of 40 Gauss Reaper Warriors does though. 

 

It can't be used on the first turn, so the Scythe needs to survive to the second turn to pull it off. 

[Bonzi]

Its pretty clear that the Necron codex wasn't written for CORE to be a benefit, or build around buffing CORE units, like SM. So even with the update, we are not as competitive because our codex wasn't designed to utilize the update as well as others. I'm not saying that the update isn't helpful, as I quite like being able to pop Disruption Fields on a unit of Skorpekh that may have lost their Plasmacyte (or even do it with the Plasmacyte's buff and up my big sword boys to S9), but it isn't going to radically change any of my thoughts about the army. What it will do is possibly switch me from running big warrior blocks to Immortals, freeing up some points to invest in further Elite/Fast Attack units to get board control.

I would agree that the Cron codex was intentionally designed to not have stacking buffs or combos for Core units. I think GW mistakenly over valued Necron durability from Reanimation and Living Metal. I think they viewed Crons as a grinding army that won on attrition rather than damage spike. The problem being Reanimation is really weak against the level of damage output other armies can attain which left us with an army that couldn't take a hit and wasn't designed to dish out damage in any meaningful way.

[Ahzek451]

Warriors and lychguard might like a point drop… but I’d really like an obelisk drop. I mean, they cost it higher than a monolith!?

Unfortunately the truth is that there is an internal private joke at GW with the obelisk at GW. With the goal to make it one of the worst units in the game forever.

[Mandragola]

Necron abilities that effect CORE units

Relentless March: A good ability, getting an extra 1" to move/advance is nothing to sneer at. Makes our fast, new CORE units even faster.

My Will Be Done/Lord's Will: Probably the biggest change and possible list shifter, handing out mods to Hit and re-rolling 1s to Hits is good for anything. Placing a cheap Overlord or Lord with some Lokhusts gives them some really good buffs.

Adaptive Strategy: Possibly useful in niche situations, getting out units like Lokhusts to get out of combat and then shoot/charge in again 

Dimensional Corridor: Requires a Monolith, which unfortunately isn't a good option right now. Otherwise, could be a good re-positioning strat to get a melee unit (that has possibly been buffed by a Chronomancer) into charge range

Prismatic Dimensional Breach: Requires either a Monolith or a Night Scythe, so slightly better than Dimensional Corridor, but does also require a unit to be in Reserves. Risky in my view, but could be a good surprise if your Scythe can survive and get close.

Relentless Onslaught: Only Warriors with flayers and Immortals with blasters can use this because of the Rapid Fire restriction, so useless for any of the new CORE units

Disruption Fields: Great, no other word for it. Getting a +1 to Strength is a good bonus, and can push your Skorpekhs/Ophidians/Wraiths/Praetorians into new to Wound brackets depending on what they are fighting against. 

I think it's worth adding some things to that list, particularly from special characters - but not only them.

 

Night Scythes can carry Core infantry, which now includes destroyers. They can also use the Monolith's eternity gate if they really want.

 

Anrakyr, Zahndrekh and Szeras hand out pretty serious buffs to core units, and that's now pretty relevant for wraiths and skorpekhs.

 

TSK gives out an aura where Core units can reroll to wound in melee, (and to hit at range, which slightly helps lokhusts I guess).

 

Technically all these new Core units also get +2 LD while within 6" of a Convergence of Dominion. Obviously you'll still never field one of those, but there you go.

[Miek]

The Art of war podcast has a nice episode I quite enjoyed about a Novokh list that plays heavily on the new core keyword, with both Anrakyr and the silent King (the silent King wasn't in the played list, but is discussed as an improvement). Here's the link my player gives me, hope it works...: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy50cmFuc2lzdG9yLmZtL3RoZS1jb21wZXRpdGl2ZS00MGstbmV0d29yaw/episode/MzU3MWU5MjgtZWU3OC00MWJjLWFiODctN2Q4ZTUxNjZkN2My?ep=14

 

Otherwise, it's episode 118.1 (the free half of the episode).

[dice4thedicegod]

I’ll have to check that out - I’ve been trying to work the silent king (and feel he works best with novokh)