sword brothers are not bad BUT...

[Medjugorje]

 so after we had so much discussions about our famous beloved squad. I want to clear out why and how they are seen as not competitve or viable. 

In the last step I want to show you that I am not a fatalistic denier... I have some ideas with them.

 

 

If the evaluation standard is "profile of an assault intercessor worth 19pts", then there is no reason of why 22pts brethren has no tournament level play at all. 1 more attack, more options, can take cover, these abilities won't be overcosted at 3pts.

So the fact could be: "assault intercessor worth 19pts" is false. People play them because the cost including troop tax. If we assume the "tax free" cost of a primaris body is 16pts, then brethren pay 6pts for the abilities above for each model, which explains why they are not competitive.

 

at first: an assault intercessor is the wrong evaluation standard because its a very weak unit.

Toughness and especially armor saves are too pricy. In general Marines are allrounders, too good just for holding an objective, too weak for cutting everything down (often its better not to charge something or leave cover (behind a wall for example) to shoot something because their weapons has no effect on too many things.

 

On the other hand - its the best comparison.

Sword Brothers are close ( only difference is that they gain the bonus of cover ) when it comes to input. Both have same statlines -> T4 and 3+.

Both have similar jobs - especially when they are equipped with chainswords. You can charge things like other Marines, all troop choices from other factions and damage dealer with weak to mid-tier input statlines. For example you cannot charge grotesques but genestealers,...

 

If you building a list you often have to buy 1 to 3 troop choices, they have obsec without needing a WL-Trait or stratagem. So you have a much cheaper way to field some units which much better fit into your lists.

Because of the weak input statline each opponent know that its the easiest target to cut down your ouput first -> but makes them more durable is not efficiant if you can buff other squads which have far better statlines.

 

One of the biggest problems for SB is that they are between BGV and Assault Intercessors. The target range of units which you want to kill with your combination of BGV and Intercessors is bigger then of Sword brothers. 

 

 

 

not to forget you have the problem that ELITE is the most important slot choice which SB compete with VV, BGV, Terminators.

 

all of them have far easier ways to get into combat and/ get buffed.

Of course some people here will say that each lithany can be done in the same way for BGV, Terminators, VV and SB...

But in practice a SB unit need transports while others do not.

Terminators and VV can deepstrike ( which in combination with "canticle of hate") . 

VV  have 12" movement and because of that they can be buffed more easy. characters which buffing VV are in a more safe position and have no needs to get close to their opponents.

Terminators and BGV dont need transports because they benefit (so much better then other units) from Icon of heinman or Crux obsidian + an addiational wound from FEAST stratagem and FnP buffs so they can survive a turn even against good shooting lists. this makes them good targets for any character buffs in the command phase.

 

Sword Brethren have no deepstrike abilites and just normal movement with normal statlines. For such units the transports are the best way to go on.

Lets see what we have there:

 

- Repulsors (waste of time, waste of points... I think we all know how their current state is)

- Impulsors. They are a bit expensive but bring an good amount of S4 attacks and a solid statleline + the option for antitank which could be very intersting for SB which can have just one weapon with damage 2+

 

so in theory we would have a unit in a transport who can deal with tanks and other elite infantry, small stuff and everything between this two types. 

- After we found out that Icon and Crux is more worthy for other selections we should find some Relics.

- At first I think Bones of Mordred are excellent on a SB with Lclws.

- Then if you bring lot of SB units which all want to charge we need "fight last abilities" ---> one unit should have the holy orb

- very sadly i think that Seal of Sigismund is a failure from the designers ( it would be that nice if they could reroll 1s instead or in addation their fully rerolls against one unit) but with that amount of attacks its worth a try.

 

 

Like I said in the start --> for me SB are worth it to try but I really see them just viable in this space

Edited February 4, 2022 by Medjugorje

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

After reading this it’s helped me to decide that I’ll definitely run a squad of Sword Brethren.

[Tokugawa]

The tools to pump brethen even have worse quality than assault intercessors.

 

Buff tools usually come from 3 source: upgrades(points), stratagems(CP), heroes(also purchased by points and CP).

 

These two units are both walking core infantry, so no difference from heroes.

 

If a player felt chainswords on assualt intercessors are not enough, he can invest 20pts, buy a fist of Balthus, and call it a day. If he need to use some stratagem to pump the output, he can invest 2CP and make them fight twice. Usually don't worth to active stratagems on 5 men unit, bigger unit needed, but same to brethen.

[noigrim]

just run them as vets in a pod

[Tiger9gamer]

honestly I would love to see the combination given in the other thread. Using ferverent acclimation to get suffer not the unclean / using Genewrought might  with the exploding 6's strat to supercharge their attacks, maybe putting a judicar with aurilian shroud next to them for a turn of 4++ and making a unit fight last... we have some good combos for casual games that could be fun. Honestly I may be picking up a box of them once I get enough scratch together just to try it out.

Any idea which would perform better? The Mordred LC's or the thunder hammer?

[Marshal Laeroth]

I want it noted that I said it was worth testing, not that I guaranteed their success.  The only way we're going to know for sure is playing them against the big baddies on the block.  With that being said, Thicc City just got massive nerfs today.  Crusher Stampede received indirect nerfs with the release of CA22, as the list relied on actions to score their secondaries and now have no good choices.  Not to mention Tau eat them alive.  So maybe I don't need to adjust for a -1 damage meta anymore.

 

The other thing to note:  SB provide bodies, which mean you have more chances to burn those high damage weapons Tau/Aeldari have.  Even more worthwhile so if they ignore invulnerable saves.  It really sucks to pick up a 5-man BGV squad because one gun shot at it and ignored the invulnerable saves.  Something the SB can actually weather, because there are more bodies for the points.  Which is why PCS are also good for their points.

 

So like I said in the video, I am going to try them.  If it doesn't work, or I don't need them, so be it.  That's perfectly fine.  ;)

[Schlitzaf]

So not watch vid yet. I intend to, but just to double on something important:

If SBros go the distance or not is irrelavent. In some regards. The fact this is a conversation we have to have. Is a massive deal. Like that itself is important. Competitively the 1% difference of efficiency matters. So a good unit competitvely? Maybe not. But a good unit? We are for good reasons having this discussion.

[CrystalSeer]

Sword bros are good at bringing power swords for 30% less than BGV. The special weapons are max 2 making it impossible to optimize for anything except basic infantry, and I don't really care about chainswords because our mandatory units optimize against the same target type; we don't need elite chainswords, troops and transports have that covered.

 

So, where do SB beat BGV? Maximizing attacks with minimal slots (ie in a transport) or simply throwing more bodies on the field.

 

With the proliferation of anti-meq shooting coming from Tau and aeldari, I'm seeing using at least light transports as kind of mandatory to get your guys to the fight.

 

A few units of SB in impulsors work well for that role.

[9x19 Parabellum]

So basically the meta is washing out exactly as Medjudj and I said it would, despite being told  we were negative nancies and chicken littles.

 

They are a decent unit, very fluffy, not bad by any means, but there is really no place for them in a competitive or really even mildly competitive list.  They don't do anything in that elite slot that other units don't do better: Speed? vvets. Shooting? lol.  Rapid Response? Termies.  Horde mulching?  troops.  Special Niche rule to shine in ultra-niche circumstance?  nope. 

 

Something that also has not been said (I don't think it has anyway), is that ap -3/-4 has a similar problem to BGV d2 weapons; that there is a ubiquitous meta that mitigates that strength, and by that I mean the prevalance of 5++ (or even worse with custodes). AP -3 and especially -4 runs into 2 problems, either becoming superfluous for 3+ or worse armor saves or superfluous because of invuln saves.  Not that BGV don't have the same problem, but they make up for it by having more of their utility tied into their durability and also have d2 weapons, so you can splat that terminator in 2 shots instead of 3 despite having a 5++ or 4++ to worry about.

 

AP -2 is like the perfect sweet spot; it's almost never wasted.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’d always rather have AP3/4… it always forces opponent to invulnerable save, 6+ for power armor versus AP3 or flat out no save. Higher strength is never a bad thing either.

[CrystalSeer]

So basically the meta is washing out exactly as Medjudj and I said it would, despite being told  we were negative nancies and chicken littles.

 

They are a decent unit, very fluffy, not bad by any means, but there is really no place for them in a competitive or really even mildly competitive list.  They don't do anything in that elite slot that other units don't do better: Speed? vvets. Shooting? lol.  Rapid Response? Termies.  Horde mulching?  troops.  Special Niche rule to shine in ultra-niche circumstance?  nope. 

 

Something that also has not been said (I don't think it has anyway), is that ap -3/-4 has a similar problem to BGV d2 weapons; that there is a ubiquitous meta that mitigates that strength, and by that I mean the prevalance of 5++ (or even worse with custodes). AP -3 and especially -4 runs into 2 problems, either becoming superfluous for 3+ or worse armor saves or superfluous because of invuln saves.  Not that BGV don't have the same problem, but they make up for it by having more of their utility tied into their durability and also have d2 weapons, so you can splat that terminator in 2 shots instead of 3 despite having a 5++ or 4++ to worry about.

 

AP -2 is like the perfect sweet spot; it's almost never wasted.

 

From a purely WAAC list building perspective, I concur that points efficiency is not in the SB's favor. For the points, BGV do better offensively against anything not doing DR -1, and really only come out a couple of wounds behind even in that scenario. Assault Intercessors come out 2 wounds behind against MEQ on the charge, but can fight again putting them at better wound output per point than BGV or SB. That is also before you factor in the Sword of Judgement or Fist of Balthus.

 

The reason I think Medjugorje gets so much pushback is not because his analysis of points mechanics is wrong, rather that the assessment of what those points mechanics mean is wrong.

 

The idea that a unit is "garbage" because it doesn't have the highest damage per points or survivability per point is predicated on two basic assumptions:

 

1.  Units can be analyzed in a linear tier fashion using 'survive-ability' and 'damage output' solely to determine their worth

2.  The way to win the game is to maximize these values, ie "I bring more damage output or more survive-able models than my opponent so I win"

 

I disagree with both of these premises. WH 40K is a paper rock scissors game with hundreds of pages of rules and strange interactions with outcomes decided by dice. The numbers I threw up before were just a quick comparison against MEQ. The low values were 6 wounds, the high 8 wounds. So for all the pages talking about whether or not SB were "garbage" or good enough to put in the game, we're talking about 2 wounds on average out of between 20 to 38 dice. Who can truly say that they don't regularly drop two dice rolls? And that's against one statline, there are hundreds.

 

Do you want to dictate your entire hobby, lore, love of the game, on two wounds? Or would you rather say screw it and throw some dice? Would you rather say your favorite army is "garbage tier" and not play the game because of a 2 wound shift?

 

Once you're on the table, many factors matter. Do you have enough bodies, do you have obsec, can they get to the right place at the right time, do you have heavy enough weapons to cripple an enemy, do you have enough shots to mitigate invuln saves, heavy cover, light cover, maneuver to get to objectives, does your list enable you to efficiently score secondaries, etc...

 

Every single one of those matters so much more than '2 wounds' its laughable. 

 

So back on topic: Are SB good or bad? The truth is the numbers are so close it doesn't really matter; so play what you like. They're a primaris assault unit with fancy swords that fit well in primaris transports or can outflank (strategic reserves) for cheap. If that fits your playstyle, go for it.

[Brother Kraskor]

I wonder if there is an argument for taking them cheap and cheerful and maximising the exploding 6s.

 

10 Swordbros with just Chainswords. With Fires and a charge that's 6 attacks each. Then stack:

- Helbrecht full re-roll (and ideally +1S)

- Gene-wrought might

- Exemplars of the Crusade

 

- 60 attacks makes 10 extra hits + auto-wounds

- re-roll the 50 non-6s for 8 further extra hits + autowounds, and 25 regular hits

- so we have 43 hits, hopefully at S5, and 18 wounds already

 

Against T4: 29 wounds + 18 = 47 wounds

Against T5: 22 wounds + 18 = 40 wounds 

Against T6 to T9 (so pretty much everything!): 14 wounds + 18 = 32 wounds

 

All at AP-2 ('sweet spot' as previously discussed), and Gene-wrought might doesn't cancel against vehicles so this works for anything. 

[Medjugorje]

my main concern about SB is that they never reach combat. They are too easy to kill for their points.

 

For example you have 2x5 Intercessors with assault weapon and one squad eradicators as the non - BT player.

 

2scenarios

BT player one has one crusader squad and 1x5 sword brethren

BT player two has one crusader squad and 1x3 BGV

 

i bet everyone would shoot all weapons against the sword brethren but against player two the intercessors would shoot against the crusader squad.

[CrystalSeer]

my main concern about SB is that they never reach combat. They are too easy to kill for their points.

 

For example you have 2x5 Intercessors with assault weapon and one squad eradicators as the non - BT player.

 

2scenarios

BT player one has one crusader squad and 1x5 sword brethren

BT player two has one crusader squad and 1x3 BGV

 

i bet everyone would shoot all weapons against the sword brethren but against player two the intercessors would shoot against the crusader squad.

 

Transports

[Tokugawa]

 

 

my main concern about SB is that they never reach combat. They are too easy to kill for their points.

 

For example you have 2x5 Intercessors with assault weapon and one squad eradicators as the non - BT player.

 

2scenarios

BT player one has one crusader squad and 1x5 sword brethren

BT player two has one crusader squad and 1x3 BGV

 

i bet everyone would shoot all weapons against the sword brethren but against player two the intercessors would shoot against the crusader squad.

Transports

TAU

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

 

my main concern about SB is that they never reach combat. They are too easy to kill for their points.

For example you have 2x5 Intercessors with assault weapon and one squad eradicators as the non - BT player.

2scenarios

BT player one has one crusader squad and 1x5 sword brethren

BT player two has one crusader squad and 1x3 BGV

i bet everyone would shoot all weapons against the sword brethren but against player two the intercessors would shoot against the crusader squad.

Transports

TAU

OBSCURING

 

I WIN THS INTERNETZZZZZ :thanks:

[Medjugorje]

 

 

 

my main concern about SB is that they never reach combat. They are too easy to kill for their points.

For example you have 2x5 Intercessors with assault weapon and one squad eradicators as the non - BT player.

2scenarios

BT player one has one crusader squad and 1x5 sword brethren

BT player two has one crusader squad and 1x3 BGV

i bet everyone would shoot all weapons against the sword brethren but against player two the intercessors would shoot against the crusader squad.

Transports

TAU

OBSCURING

 

I WIN THS INTERNETZZZZZ

 

Impulsors have no fly

and SB just 6" so that obscuring often will not help them.

[Brother Kraskor]

my main concern about SB is that they never reach combat. They are too easy to kill for their points.

 

 

 

So why not keep them cheap as in my example, chainswords only? And I know this applies to everything but we can stack some significant buffs on them: light cover, 5++, 5+++.

[templargdt]

I think power swords and 1 thunderhammer make it a fine little unit.  

[Khornestar]

They only really seem worth it with all chainswords. 1-2 lightning claws… meh. 1-2 hammers, hitting on a 4+ without buffs… meh. Power swords can at least be taken on everyone, but then that’s 25-50 points for everyone. Chainswords all the way.

[Medjugorje]

I think you are totally wrong here. I think Powerswords are the only way because you have better options like i said above.

 

Hammer is a bad idea i think because of -1 to hit and the problem that they dont get access to buffs that easy in comparison to other units. 

 

I would say lighClaws and powerswords are the way to go.

Edited February 7, 2022 by Medjugorje

[9x19 Parabellum]

Chainswords on SB make no sense to me.  You already have PLENTY of str 4 D1 attacks in your troop choices. Why the hell would you devote more points and Elite slots to Chainswords. 

 

Sword Brethren: A unit so badly designed they had to make power swords 40% cheaper in order to give them a purpose in the army...and even then it's still arguable.

Edited February 7, 2022 by 9x19 Parabellum

[Brother Kraskor]

Chainswords on SB make no sense to me.  You already have PLENTY of str 4 D1 attacks in your troop choices. Why the hell would you devote more points and Elite slots to Chainswords. 

 

Sword Brethren: A unit so badly designed they had to make power swords 40% cheaper in order to give them a purpose in the army...and even then it's still arguable

 

To maximise the benefit from their unique exploding 6s strat. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Power swords are nothing to sneeze at imo .

[SkimaskMohawk]

Idk, the power swords makes you have 4 sword brethren to 3 bgv for equivalent points. You're losing a lot of attacks and now have fewer wounds just to march the STR and ap. At least with chainswords you can make a pretty explosive unit for low points with the right synergy.