Another Rant about our toughness..

[Plague _Lord]

Just another one folks. If you feel I'm being too salty just tell me and I'll stop ranting in my posts... it's just I feel our beloved Deathguard has all of it's schtick given to other armies. I just watched a bat rep (Tabletop titans are great!) where the Tau player made a more durable army than ours... That's right tau commanders that are vastly tougher than our HQs and all of their battlesuits tougher than our terminators...

 

For comparison:

 

Tau commander had 1+ armour save, 4++ inv save and relic for 4+++ FNP save for a whole turn in addition to ignoring damage from the first hit it takes. All of that at toughness 5 with 6 wounds.

 

Our LoC also has T5 and 6 wounds, along with a 2+, 4++ save profile but when you count in the amazing mobility and firepower the Tau have the comparison becomes pale.

 

Anyway the nail in the coffin for me is that most armies get access to targeted or aura buffs that increase survivability, while we basically have nearly none that do that for us. A slew of armies now have access to both our old DR (5+++ FnP) and our new DR (-1D) while we have none of other armies mobility or firepower...

 

I feel after the CA that we are joining Guard at the bottom of the pot as the worst army at the moment and it probably wont change untill we get a new codex in 10th ed.

[Special Officer Doofy]

I'm all for conversation, happy or sad, as long as it doesn't lead to personal attacks. So post away frater. I decided to step away from the hobby. Haven't bought a kit in just over a year now (the LoV and terrain). If the rumors in the chaos space marines thread is true, our codex will be pretty laughable compared to them. We were already under a 50% win rate by a decent amount (last I read was at 40% with some 8th edition codexes beating us), and our most competitive units got their point cost increased. Is what it is. I had a feeling I was going to quit when we lost our 5+++ for a downgraded -1 damage. Owell. I still poke around the forums to see updates. Edited February 9, 2022 by Putrid Choir

[Relentless]

At least our models look cool as hell

[Plague _Lord]

Just want to add that our tears aren't unwarranted... played a game yesterday with mostly units that got a points discount... Might put up a battle report later but it was disheartening to say the least :/

[Wolf Lord Loki]

Just want to add that our tears aren't unwarranted... played a game yesterday with mostly units that got a points discount... Might put up a battle report later but it was disheartening to say the least :/

Please do. It always helps to learn from others experiences

[Relentless]

Just want to add that our tears aren't unwarranted... played a game yesterday with mostly units that got a points discount... Might put up a battle report later but it was disheartening to say the least :/

 

I got tabled by Flesh Tearers the other day, but I did kill a squad of death company with PMs, so....win? lol

[happyslugger]

I haven't played any 40k for a while now due to lockdowns and lack of motivation. The speed at which I feel the rules change also makes it hard for me personally to keep up and stay on top of things. I point blank refused to purchase books also as they go out of date so quickly. I've been building a khorne element to my nurgle boys, but even that I've not had the enthusiasm to carry on with. I've played one game in recent months (khorne Vs custodes) and that went as we can all imagine. I haven't touched my DG for well over 12 months, may even be closer to 18 months. Hated the way we lost our 5+ as that used to lead to some great games with units surviving with one wound.....in fact...I haven't used Morty since he became T8...so it's been that long.

[MegaVolt87]

Still, even if DG retained FNP with their new rules I am not seeing how that would make them OP to justify changing their tanky mechanic they have now. The toolbox is also small, so they should also be a bit under-costed also IMO. 

[Dragon24]

Question is there any way to build at least a semi competitive Death Guard list at all?

[Xenith]

We were already under a 50% win rate by a decent amount 

 

Was this in your local meta, or global tournaments? Because remember that global tourneys are now run and won by players who want to win them to sell their tactics services, podcasts, etc. Any codex that is perceived stronger, these players jump ship and change, meaning the strongest/most competitive players don't use the former codex...making a decreasing WR for older books a self fulfilling prophecy.  There's no reason not to take and enjoy DG in your local scene. Unless you're a super competitive tourney player.

 

There's several DG players in my local club, and they all do well. One came second place in our last tourney, and another has been smashing people with PBC's. 

Edited February 14, 2022 by Xenith

[Xenith]

 

 

Tau commander had 1+ armour save, 4++ inv save and relic for 4+++ FNP save for a whole turn in addition to ignoring damage from the first hit it takes. All of that at toughness 5 with 6 wounds.

 

And how many points was that?

 

DG can make a prince at T7, 2+, 5++, -1D, Ignores AP-1 and -2 that can boost itself to T8. 

 

The BA mega chaplain recently got nerfed with a point increase, so if the tau suit is really overperforming, it'll get kicked too. 

[Special Officer Doofy]

Global, local and personal. LVO had them at 41% win rate. Local scene is not too far off.

 

And personally, my main opponent is my brother who plays mainly admech. Not alot of wins against him since his codex launched shortly after mine.

 

My complaint is the whole codex creep at large. It's to the point it's laughable. I have a hard time now trying to talk people into Warhammer 40k.

 

"Yeah it's super expensive, costs go up almost every year even though they had record profits when most the world was just hanging on, everything is constantly delayed and every new codex was written with the intent of beating the rest of the codexes and it gets worse with every new one! What's that? Can you buy the rules digitally? No, that would be too convenient". It's a hard sell for me right now.

Edited February 14, 2022 by Putrid Choir

[Xenith]

I have a hard time now trying to talk people into Warhammer 40k.

 

"Yeah it's super expensive, costs go up almost every year even though they had record profits when most the world was just hanging on, everything is constantly delayed and every new codex was written with the intent of beating the rest of the codexes and it gets worse with every new one! What's that? Can you buy the rules digitally? No, that would be too convenient". It's a hard sell for me right now.

 

Then maybe don't lead with that? Most is hyperbolic bunkum* anyway. But let's keep to the topic at hand, the relative toughness of DG. Happy to discuss those issues over PM, or check out threads on those topics in Amicus. 

 

 

*I understand the upset and frustration at price rises, onslaugh of books, etc, but lets not lose sight of hard facts and remain objective.

Edited February 14, 2022 by Xenith

[Special Officer Doofy]

I'll agree it's off topic but completely disagree it's hyperbolic bunkum, considering hard facts and data agree with it.

 

DG have the slowest mobility, below average shooting, average to above average melee (which sucks when paired with our mobility and lack of any charge mechanics) and above average toughness. The extra staying power doesn't make up for the lack of everything else.

[Xenith]

For comparison, there's a thread in the Tau Section discussion the tough commander - it clocks in at ~190pts - is that comparable to a DG character?

[Plague _Lord]

Our Daemon Prince can come in at the same points level and is a) less tough b) does no damage in the shooting phase c) Is way less mobile d) doesn't rly have any buffs. Don't get me wrong my DP get's stuff done but he just isn't as tough as he should be and the same can be said for most units in our codex. We trade mobility for toughness and the Tau commander get's the best of both worlds which is bonkers.

 

I really am trying to see the sunny side of things but we were doing fine as a codex and we just got nerfed hard while with every new dex it seems our special rules are becomming overall rules. Let us have our lamentations.