Lets discuss our shiny new codex

[Panzer]

Let's see if Broadsides will get sold out next then. :D

[Focslain]

So I have an odd question on a strat. 

 

So with Frequency Lock you can hit a unit that has a markerlight token on it even if out of line of sight. For markerlights you can select a target as long as it is in LoS (iirc). So here's the issue.

 

Can we 1) mark a character with a markerlight and then 2) use Frequency Lock to snipe said character?

 

Asking cause my nemesis for the campaign is a GSC player and I need to drop his banner character asap. 

[Panzer]

It only circumvents the line of sight restriction, not anything regarding targeting characters. Still got to rely on the good 'ol sniper units for that ... or use the hammer method and just wipe everything in front of or around the character first lol

[chapter master 454]

You know...I realise that for the faction of shooters we lack in any meaningful sniper character or unit that is in some way good. I suppose sniper drones aren't too bad but just odd.

 

Oh well, just have to do it the old fashioned way.

[depthcharge12]

You know...I realise that for the faction of shooters we lack in any meaningful sniper character or unit that is in some way good. I suppose sniper drones aren't too bad but just odd.

 

Oh well, just have to do it the old fashioned way.

In a weird way, you could use the fusion blaster prototype to hit/snipe characters if there is a unit behind them that is targetable.

 

I’d have to check the wording but the grenade racks might be another way to do it.

 

 

Honestly…with how killy our whole army is now, I’m sure it wouldn’t be hard to get to the characters ;)

[tychobi]

So how is it going with the new codex?  Some folks around here are not eager to play against the Tau right now feeling like the book is over powered.  Getting tabled turn 2 gave me a similar impression.  I suppose my question is are you finding fun games with the codex as it stands right now and how are your opponents reacting to facing might the greater good on the table top?

[Focslain]

So how is it going with the new codex?  Some folks around here are not eager to play against the Tau right now feeling like the book is over powered.  Getting tabled turn 2 gave me a similar impression.  I suppose my question is are you finding fun games with the codex as it stands right now and how are your opponents reacting to facing might the greater good on the table top?

 

Well my group isn't liking some of the stuff, the Hammerhead had a rep out of the gate and it's performance in my group isn't helping matters. Stormsurge is also winced at.

 

My FLGS is running a campaign and it doesn't help that there are two tau players in it. While I only field a single hammerhead, my counterpart runs two. Has since the start.

 

The skyray is preforming pretty good, it has about the same amount of vehicle/monster kills as the hammerhead. 

 

I haven't had much time with the riptide yet, but it tanked a full unit of warriors even without it's inv (mission bit). I did here of an annoying play with it, using the move option of the nova reactor to basically do hit and runs behind buildings.

 

The biggest learning curve for me is the Ethereals, I wasn't big on chaplains in my marines, but the invocations of the ethereals are really nice, I have to remember to give mine the CP generating one as Tau can be CP heavy.

 

Side note for crusade, the auto-loader weapon enhancement on the HH railgun is stupid good when it goes off. Also master crafting CIBs and/or missile pods.   

[Dark Legionnare]

So how is it going with the new codex?  Some folks around here are not eager to play against the Tau right now feeling like the book is over powered.  Getting tabled turn 2 gave me a similar impression:rolleyes:.  I suppose my question is are you finding fun games with the codex as it stands right now and how are your opponents reacting to facing might the greater good on the table top?

Played a league game at a FLGS two Saturdays back, against Death Guard. I felt his pain so empathically.

 

In response, I'm definitely taking out Longstrike, switching from Tau to Farsight, replacing Longboi and some drones with another stealth team and commander Farsight to lessen the hitting potential.

 

I GROSSLY underestimated what Longboi giving free markerlight bonus to a unit of three broadsides would add up to with the auto-wound on 6's to hit. I may bring a basic hammerhead (or swap to Skyray) back in later games as Bork once I get things toned down just right/better.

 

Side note, I had WILD success with a Tau sept fireblade (bigger buff ranges from that) making 30 FW (strike team) an absolute nightmare of damage to the DG guy. And as well, a fish giving rerolls against an agressive enemy unit to all nearby Firewarrior keywords is hella good.

 

Mont'ka is stronk if you like "in your face crisis/stealth warfare" like I do. Played a practice game with the same list against a buddy the Sunday after, but Kauyon, not even remotely a fair comparison. The AP buff alone, regardless of the move buff, is powerful as hell when utilized.

[Mandragola]

I think I've found a nice trick with Longstrike, though it's possible others have found it already. He can allow a unit of Broadsides with Seeker Missiles to target anything they want with the frequency lock stratagem. The strat lets you fire out of LoS and get +1 to wound so long as the target has a markerlight token. Longstrike makes the targets of all the unit's attacks count as having a markerlight. That's pretty useful, I think.

 

Another quite nice option is using a Ghostkeel as a character bodyguard. The Ghostkeel can't be shot unless it's the closest target and it grants look out Sir to nearby characters. So long as something else is nearby, you're pretty free to move these guys around your backfield.

[chapter master 454]

I actually made a list based on that fire warrior onslaught Legionnaire.

 

60 total, 30 breachers in 3 devilfish with 1 cadre with another 30 pulse rifles also backed with another cadre with the warlord trait which is just their auto-wound stratagem in WL form.

You have 2 commanders, Shadowsun along with an Etheral backing it up while having 20 pathfinders. There is a crisis team in there but they aren't exactly the highlight.

 

I have intention to test this in a future league along with testing on more general games to see how it does. However some notes from crafting it, because it is a solely mont'ka style list (no intention of using Kauyon, the pre-game move is needed for the devilfish to ensure the breachers will be threatening turn 1 even when going second along with ensuring the pathfinders can fire their rail rifles to full effect. The list is entirely built on the concept that siegler had with his mechanicus: Quantity has a Quality all of its own. There is some anti-tank weapons like rail rifles on the pathfinders and one commander is a straight up brawler enforcer (onager, proto-flamer, fusion blaster. the works).

I am glad to hear however my theory about the tau sept may have credence: you don't take them for the re-roll, you take them for the aura range increase. Their stratagem is also super good too for the overall strategy.

One note is that Shadowsun could be dropped, while powerful she does have one issue: she eats a Warlord trait. Some theory crafting on my own part but you could drop her to open a 3rd warlord trait to take exemplar of Mont'Ka to get re-roll to wound command power on the other cadre. In effect, this would give both your breacher and strike teams doubles of their stratagem powers. Sadly a non-bo with the other cadre being in a devilfish but after he gets out and is running around, he can use that on breachers (or due to be more generic, maybe even the suits?).

 

Kind of stuck theorycrafting for now...got to finish current league that started before the new codex and my knights have one last game to close out. Currently thinking of doing more research and theory work on Piranha Spam with custom sept, and also work on big suit builds (Ghostkeels and Riptides). Sadly, unless they give the R'Varna and Y'Vahra some love my lovely toys aren't going to see much play (they cost an arm and a leg to field...though funny thing: they technically get free missile drones due to I believe missing points for them in the compendium).

 

So far, it seems every codex that has come out in 9th however has been "overpower" in some form which is good imo. While some seem to call out power creep, I wonder what part is power creep and what is people just not exploring other options. I mean...Siegler did manage it with mechanicus fresh from the nerf bat!

[Dark Legionnare]

I actually made a list based on that fire warrior onslaught Legionnaire.

 

60 total, 30 breachers in 3 devilfish with 1 cadre with another 30 pulse rifles also backed with another cadre with the warlord trait which is just their auto-wound stratagem in WL form.

You have 2 commanders, Shadowsun along with an Etheral backing it up while having 20 pathfinders. There is a crisis team in there but they aren't exactly the highlight.

 

I have intention to test this in a future league along with testing on more general games to see how it does. However some notes from crafting it, because it is a solely mont'ka style list (no intention of using Kauyon, the pre-game move is needed for the devilfish to ensure the breachers will be threatening turn 1 even when going second along with ensuring the pathfinders can fire their rail rifles to full effect. The list is entirely built on the concept that siegler had with his mechanicus: Quantity has a Quality all of its own. There is some anti-tank weapons like rail rifles on the pathfinders and one commander is a straight up brawler enforcer (onager, proto-flamer, fusion blaster. the works).

I am glad to hear however my theory about the tau sept may have credence: you don't take them for the re-roll, you take them for the aura range increase. Their stratagem is also super good too for the overall strategy.

One note is that Shadowsun could be dropped, while powerful she does have one issue: she eats a Warlord trait. Some theory crafting on my own part but you could drop her to open a 3rd warlord trait to take exemplar of Mont'Ka to get re-roll to wound command power on the other cadre. In effect, this would give both your breacher and strike teams doubles of their stratagem powers. Sadly a non-bo with the other cadre being in a devilfish but after he gets out and is running around, he can use that on breachers (or due to be more generic, maybe even the suits?).

 

Kind of stuck theorycrafting for now...got to finish current league that started before the new codex and my knights have one last game to close out. Currently thinking of doing more research and theory work on Piranha Spam with custom sept, and also work on big suit builds (Ghostkeels and Riptides). Sadly, unless they give the R'Varna and Y'Vahra some love my lovely toys aren't going to see much play (they cost an arm and a leg to field...though funny thing: they technically get free missile drones due to I believe missing points for them in the compendium).

 

So far, it seems every codex that has come out in 9th however has been "overpower" in some form which is good imo. While some seem to call out power creep, I wonder what part is power creep and what is people just not exploring other options. I mean...Siegler did manage it with mechanicus fresh from the nerf bat!

Our playgroups (two shops and my upstairs warhammer room) tend to aim to play fluff, but strong. IE, nothing tourney like. So I'm stepping down power on purpose for this league because Longstrike and three broadsides ab-so-lute-ly swept an entire half of the table, just by themselves in a 1500pt game. It was absurd.

 

I didn't get to use the Tau stratagem (didn't want to salt in the wounds my opponent) but I can see where it would be ridiculous teeing up a wound from something else, only to have even my limited just 30 FW and 10 PF's suddenly wounding most light targets on 2's or 3's.

 

All the power aside. I'm very pleased with the overall ruleset, reasons + better ability to take classic crisis mixed loadouts, stealth suit durability upping a bit, and the drones getting put back into the realm of common sense.

 

My only real gripe, is I feel the ghostkeel is still a bit too expensive for what they bring... But I have a fun (silly) list idea for this league (we can change our lists from game to game, aka, very casual league) of two ghostkeels babysitting the backfield with two big hordes of gun drones alongside them to use the controllers for fun.

Edited March 1, 2022 by Dark Legionnare

[Galron]

I am playing mine in a league. We are bumping up to 1k now but my first two games were 500pts as you can read on my blog on this page. Both did well but both were against newer players. I intentionally did not bring a bat to a baby seal fight unlike some DBs in the league. My first was against custodes who brought 7 guys and it literally took most of my army shooting  two turns to bring a 3 man bike unit down down and they still killed half a fire warrior squad and 2 out of three crisis. Second game was against an even newer player so I tried my no big suit, mechanized infantry build and played it a bit too aggressively. I still won 89-25 but I had 1 fire warrior left out of the 20 I brought. 

 

Playng the scoring game both times was key. We have such good scoring and high mobility troops that even with our crappy 4+ BS its still better to run around to  objectives than outright blow the opponent off the board first thing. I guess you can do that but I think it lacks the style of a smoothly flowing tabletop army. I used my necron blades in my last league like schools of fish flowing in and flowing out of danger. 

 

Stealth teams so far have been my MVPs both games, just barebone with the burst cannons. First game tying up a captain and scoring, second game  both scoring and more than doubling their points in units killed. I cant see myself not using them in most games.

 

Loving the variety of armies we can bring and still be viable. Mech infantry is my favorite style with minimal battlesuits. Working on a Sacea stealth oriented list I will try out this weekend. Three ghostkeels, three sky rays, some fast moving skimmer support and of course stealth suits I wish I had more of.

 

Then you have the variety of suit builds. I havent yet seen a "superior" build yet like we used to have with the old Fire Knives. Going to also give 2 plasma/flamer suits a try in my next game. In my league game I am going to try out Borkan fusion Hazard suits to see how they work out as primary anti-tank at 1k points. 

[Tawnis]

I've got a new league coming up soon and I'm sticking with my primarily Kroot theme, going all in on Kroot for the 500-1000 point brackets and only brining in Tau infantry and crisis suits to support for the 1500-2000 brackets because that's how my custom sept (playing as Dal'Yth) operates. Fast infantry with hit & run tactics. I'm hoping the heavy reliance on Kroot will keep it from feeling overpowered, though I did have people talking about how my 8th ed Kroot list was really strong in my league a few months ago (I placed second in a really close finals match out of about 40 people), so I guess we'll see. XD

 

As for the actual power of the codex itself, there was a match at my LGS last weekend, 10,000 points of Tau vs 10,000 points of Marines. The marines were nearly tabled on turn 2. So, yeah, seems like GW may have overcorrected just a bit. XD

Edited March 2, 2022 by Tawnis

[Galron]

I wouldnt worry about it. Eldar come out this weekend and everyone's ire will be redirected towards them. The only ones who truly get to complain are going to be Chaos marine players when they inevitably screw them/us over again for yet another edition. 

[9x19 Parabellum]

I've played a total of 6 games, 1 with my Tau and 5 against.  All 6 games were tablings by turn 3, and usually decided by end of turn 1.  I watched an additional game of Tau vs. Sisters in my Escalation league at 500 pts.

 

3 games Tau Borkan vs. my Black Templar. (1k-1500 pts)

2 games Tau FSE vs. my Sisters (at 500 pts and 750 pts for escalation lelague)

1 game Death Guard vs. my Sa'Cea Tau (1500 pts)

 

I couldn't bring myself to play my Tau in our escalation league because it just feels dirty.  I also will refuse playing the tau player at 1,000 pts in our escalation league; he's farmed me twice and that's generous enough; I did my duty and took it on the chin twice.

 

Sorry, fellow tau players.  The codex is broken/OP and needs some nerfs. (to be sure, they are not the only codex in this category).

 

Mont'ka and Kauyon need better internal balancing against each other.

Coldstar, Broadsides, Devilfish, Hammerhead and Crisis suits all need a bump in points, maybe Skyray too.  Hammerhead Railgun needs a bit toning down, too.

Then there are a whole bunch of other targeted nerfs that are needed.  Why does sub-munitions max out at 8 mortal wounds when everyone else's MW stratagems max out at 6?  How does the stupid airburst special system do -3 leadership when virtually every other leadership debuff thing in the game is -1, or at most, -2. 

How do fire warriors get a 6" gun buff, -1 ap gun buff, stay the same points, and get a super 1 cp stratagem, that, combined with Mont'ka, gets their base gun to -3 AP, all for the same 8 points they always cost?

 

the comparisons could go on.  Sorry, it's just way too much layering buffs and cheese.

Edited March 28, 2022 by 9x19 Parabellum

[Dark Legionnare]

I've played a total of 6 games, 1 with my Tau and 5 against.  All 6 games were tablings by turn 3, and usually decided by end of turn 1.  I watched an additional game of Tau vs. Sisters in my Escalation league at 500 pts.

 

3 games Tau Borkan vs. my Black Templar. (1k-1500 pts)

2 games Tau FSE vs. my Sisters (at 500 pts and 750 pts for escalation lelague)

1 game Death Guard vs. my Sa'Cea Tau (1500 pts)

 

I couldn't bring myself to play my Tau in our escalation league because it just feels dirty.  I also will refuse playing the tau player at 1,000 pts in our escalation league; he's farmed me twice and that's generous enough; I did my duty and took it on the chin twice.

 

Sorry, fellow tau players.  The codex is broken/OP and needs some nerfs. (to be sure, they are not the only codex in this category).

 

Mont'ka and Kauyon need better internal balancing against each other.

Coldstar, Broadsides, Devilfish, Hammerhead and Crisis suits all need a bump in points, maybe Skyray too.  Hammerhead Railgun needs a bit toning down, too.

Then there are a whole bunch of other targeted nerfs that are needed.  Why does sub-munitions max out at 8 mortal wounds when everyone else's MW stratagems max out at 6?  How does the stupid airburst special system do -3 leadership when virtually every other leadership debuff thing in the game is -1, or at most, -2. 

How do fire warriors get a 6" gun buff, -1 ap gun buff, stay the same points, and get a super 1 cp stratagem, that, combined with Mont'ka, gets their base gun to -3 AP, all for the same 8 points they always cost?

 

the comparisons could go on.  Sorry, it's just way too much layering buffs and cheese.

I was playing in a 1500pt league as well and asked the shop owner if I could swap to another army. Took a vote of what folks wanted to see more, Orks or SM, Orks it was.

 

First game was dirty.  Made my second list as dumbed down as I could by taking less crisis suits, using all the foot infantry I own, ghostkeel, etc...but it was still a wash by turn 3, no contest.

 

I've always loved playing danger-close and aggressive with three teams of 3 crisis with short range aggressive weapons last edition, with sparse long guns support; but now, going anywhere near that is harsh as hell to the other players, at least until some points love gets introduced.

 

So, I feel ya' intrinsically.  I got an army-swap rules exception because the army was so ludicrous, even as weak as I could run it with what I own.

Edited March 28, 2022 by Dark Legionnare

[Focslain]

Honestly any codex released pre-Cutodes needs a re-tooling, cause that is when the power creep turned into a plateau.

 

Took a bit, but my local group is getting better against Tau. All my games against the Necron player have been close affairs, same with the GSC player. The harlequin player just murders me since the his update. But that is up to luck of the die (making 80% of your inv saves helps A LOT) and the lose of my re-rolls that hurts the most.

 

Only reason the Custodes players haven't had luck is that we can tailor to punch through thier defenses, much like TSons,  Grey Knights, and Tyranids, even pre-update.

 

Only thing saving me versus our GSC player is my legendary level commander tooled to survive and deal with him specifically.

 

Outside of that his still a handful. Rest of the group is playing either with last edition or beginning of this edition codexes and are new to boot. So not expecting much from them, except the TSon player, he's learning real fast and I have to be careful how I handle him or I'm not lasting two turns. And that is not even counting his ability to daemon summon, just the stupid amount of MW he can generate. 

[9x19 Parabellum]

Honestly any codex released pre-Cutodes needs a re-tooling, cause that is when the power creep turned into a plateau.

 

 

My only issue with this approach (old stuff getting tooled up, as opposed to new stuff getting toned down), is that it means the lethality of every faction, and therefore every game, is hopped up to 11 and games are decided by turn 2.  I'd prefer to see the top dogs (Custodes, Tau, Harlies, probably CWE and Nids too) get knocked down rather than everyone get a glow up (although certainly some armies need a glow-up, Guard and Chaos and Imperial Fists).

[Malakithe]

Crisis dont need a points hike. Yeah they are kinda crazy but a unit of 5 is pushing usually 200-400 points. And honestly if they did go up in points I would just drop a Strike Team and likely be good.

[Guest Triszin]

I agree. It's just that all recent codexes feel like 9.5 e.

 

 

All the older codees need updates

[Galron]

Having just finished a league playing Tau, there are some definite broken parts. Storm Surges are incredibly under-costed, they will eat a knight no problem unless it makes it into melee.

 

Overall it is a very powerful faction and I expect the first chapter approved to raise points across the board.

 

I think Hammerheads are over-rated. Might be worth bringing as a bullet sponge. I prefer Skyrays.

 

I have a feeling the mobile disembark strat will be nerfed to both 2 or 3 cp and to have no movement after disembarking seeing as you can bring multiple devilfish deep into enemy territory to have breachers strike at point blank at hidden targets.

 

After building an eldar army with the new eldar dex and playing this one for awhile now, no contest, Tau is the number one codex right now. Its like the two teams didnt even talk to each other about balancing.

Edited March 31, 2022 by Galron

[9x19 Parabellum]

Crisis dont need a points hike. Yeah they are kinda crazy but a unit of 5 is pushing usually 200-400 points. And honestly if they did go up in points I would just drop a Strike Team and likely be good.

 

Dude this is like the very definition of being OP (or undercosted, however you want to put it).  If they went up in points, and you decide, as a player, that the opportunity cost is a no-brainer to drop a strike team in order to include the Crisis Suits, that kinda means that the Crisis Suits are too good for their points.

[Malakithe]

Having just finished a league playing Tau, there are some definite broken parts. Storm Surges are incredibly under-costed, they will eat a knight no problem unless it makes it into melee.

 

I have a feeling the mobile disembark strat will be nerfed to both 2 or 3 cp and to have no movement after disembarking seeing as you can bring multiple devilfish deep into enemy territory to have breachers strike at point blank at hidden targets.

 

After building an eldar army with the new eldar dex and playing this one for awhile now, no contest, Tau is the number one codex right now. Its like the two teams didnt even talk to each other about balancing.

Eh...almost anything can take down a Knight these days. I was thinking the same for the CP cost going up though. 1CP for up to 3 Devilfish seems a bit much. 

 

Murder Clowns are easily #1 now based on how everyone is reacting.

 

 

 

Crisis dont need a points hike. Yeah they are kinda crazy but a unit of 5 is pushing usually 200-400 points. And honestly if they did go up in points I would just drop a Strike Team and likely be good.

 

Dude this is like the very definition of being OP (or undercosted, however you want to put it).  If they went up in points, and you decide, as a player, that the opportunity cost is a no-brainer to drop a strike team in order to include the Crisis Suits, that kinda means that the Crisis Suits are too good for their points.

 

But thats how it always works. Points go up, you drop things to compensate. What point range do you think is okay then? Is it the battlesuits themselves or the weapons? My list has 2 units of 5. One at 299, one at 349. At what point do I say im okay with how much they cost? You go to low and thats all people take. You go to high and the most iconic T'au unit will never see play. 

 

Pushing the points too high will just change the strategy to something equally or more ridiculous. Do you want 6 Breacher Teams in Devilfish? Cuz thats how you get that. 12 Gun drones is only 96pts + Drone Controller is also a laughably good. Times that by 3 and your opponent wont be able to move out of their own zone.   

[9x19 Parabellum]

So, two things, Malakithe:

 

1. Internal and External balance.  The codex (every codex) needs both.  Units need to be fairly costed against other codices' comparable units.  Externally, compare a Crisis Suit (base) to a terminator (base).  It is a laughable comparison.  You might say "well, terminators are too expensive, that's a SM problem."  Ok fine....so they come down in points, that begets an internal balance with SM units, wherein people only take Terminators and nothing else.  etc, etc. the cycle can go on inifinitely. Internally....the cost of a crisis suit needs to be raised such that there is a meaningful comparison against other units.  OR (or) they need to be nerfed in some way. Possibly both.  Personally I think the two biggest issues with Crisis Suits are: the ability to shoot while in engagement range (effectively enjoying the best part of the vehicle keyword, without having any of the drawbacks of the vehicle keyword) and the strike and fade stratagem.  Using the 12 gun drone thing doesn't prove crisis suits are balanced, it only suggest there is more stuff in the codex that is problematic.  This exactly proves my point.

 

2. Actual real-world resiliency.  You have a T5, W4, 3+ platform with the option of a 4++ for 5 points, all for 30 pts.  A Termie, by comparison, is T4, W3, 2+/5++ with a base price (stripped of weaponry) at about 26 points.   Then you add into that the ability for cheap drones to tank the big shots for you, then add in the further untargetability offered by Strike and Fade, and you have a very deadly, reasonably costed unit which is INCREDIBLY difficult to shift or neutralize.  The shooting of Crisis Suits is several times more potent than Terminator lame-ass storm bolters, and while their melee is functionally irrelevant, it doesn't matter because of their ability to fire overwatch for free and then their ability to shoot into combat on their turn. 

 

Listen...I have Tau....4k points....I love my Tau army.  I want to be able to play it without feeling dirty and without my oppponent having a frustrating time.  I also have Necrons...and when Decurion detachments were a thing at the end of 7th, I said that too was not balanced, and when my Iron Father Feiros for my Iron Hands was only 120 points and devastator doctrine lasted all game, I said that too was unbalanced, and when Raven Guard could infiltrate assault centurions and massacre 1st turn I said that needed fixing.  This codex needs fixing.

[Malakithe]

So what would your solution be for internal balance? 10% points increase across the board is probably the only real answer. External though your saying your okay with a base, barebones Crisis team costing more then a Voidweaver?