Lets discuss our shiny new codex

[9x19 Parabellum]

So what would your solution be for internal balance? 10% points increase across the board is probably the only real answer. External though your saying your okay with a base, barebones Crisis team costing more then a Voidweaver? 

 

Understanding that I'm not the game's architect, so it's not my job perse to balance the codices, and also understanding that it's true that;

-other codices need to be buffed

-other codices need to be nerfed as well.  I'm not as familiar with Voidweavers as I don't play Harlequins and don't own the codex, but every indication is that Harlies need pretty hefty nerfs.

 

At the very least i would do the following:

 

- Global Nerfs:

 battlesuits lose the ability to fire into combat (unless they have the vehicle keyword)

 Mont'ka needs a nerf and Kauyon needs a buff.  I'd recommed Mont'ka only last 1 turn (but the Tau player declares it on whatever turn they want)

 

 

-Coldstar Commander:

 needs an increase of ~20 points.  GW doesn't understand how much being fast (14" + no opportunity cost free advance) impacts a unit's both offensive and defensive abilities.

 needs to go back down to 6 wounds.  This is an example of bad internal balance. The Enforcer is supposed to be the tanky commander; why does the coldstar have the same # wounds?  The armor save difference is largely irrelevant given that both models will usually be using their 4++ from Shield and the CSC can have Iridium anyway. Hardened Armour is great but offset by CSC's better crisis suit buff...it's madness that the Enforcer costs 10 more points than the CSC AFTER taking the Iridium battlesuit.

 

-Strike Teams either:

 +1 point per model

OR

 lose 6" to their gun or lose the pulse rifles -1 AP.

 AND

 their stratagem (Relentless Fusillade) loses one component of it's buff.  (The reason SM have built in Bolter Drill is because Str 4, AP0, 24" bolters do crap on their own). Combine this stratagem with Mont'ka means massed Str. 5, -3AP infantry rifles.  Really think about this for a minute.  This shooting shreds any MEQ, TEQ or GEQ in the game, for 8 points.

 

-Breacher Teams:

 lose one component of their Stratagem (Breach and Clear)

 Other than that I think breachers are ok (but see my remarks about devilfish)

 

-Crisis Suits:

 base increase +5 points per model

 shield either reduced to 5+ invuln OR costs 7 pts per model OR only 1 model per unit can have 1.

 Strike and Fade goes to 2/3 CP.

 

-Ghostkeel

 reduce cost to 145

 reduce flare launcher to 10

 

-Piranha

 I think the Piranha is fine, but let's look at this in comparison to Marine Outrider squad.  A single bike (outrider) is 50 pts, while the Prianha is 60 pts.

 Statlines are as follows:

 Piranha: 14 / 6+ / 4+ / 4 / 6 / 7 / 2 / 7 / 4+

 Outrider: 14 / 3+ / 3+ / 4 / 5 / 4 / 2 / 8 / 3+

 So for 10 more points, you have a model with 1 higher Toughness, 3 more wounds.  Same speed, except the Piranha has fly (huge advantage). Piranha can't fight for , but doesn't matter because it's a vehicle and can shoot in combat.  While the Outriders can fight, they are limited to anit-horde weaponry, which SM troop units already have in spades.  Piranha shooting is 14 shots at str 5 (or higher) bs4, vs. Outriders 4 shots at str 4, bs 3.  It also has a Drone disembark shenanigans and a useful Outlflank ability, which, if I understand correctly, doesn't cost CPs.

 

This is a solid unit at 60 points, yet I'm not seeing them anywhere because there is just so much better stuff in the codex to load up on. 

 

-Vespid

 this is a ridiculously good unit/model for 12 points.  These are 1/2 the cost of an Assault Marine, with ridiculously good and potent shooting for their cost. Better yet, compare to a Seraphim squad model which cost 24 points with actual guns.  Nothing inherently broken here, but I think they could probably stand to go up to 15 or 16 pts.

 

-Broadside

 I think decent rules overall, just needs to cost a little more.  If i unpack the base cost...a twin lascannon is fairly comparable to the heavy rail rifle (but the HRR is better in every way).  I think valuing the HRR at 25 points is about right.   That means the base cost of a Broadside is around 50...compared to ~90 for a Dreadnought, or ~40 for Centurion Devastator.  Again, the comparisons come out laughably favorable for a broadside.  BS has twice as many wounds as DC, as good or better shooting, customizability, and it has the Core keyword.  The broadside can't take a shield, which is 100% the right call but still need to consider the durability of an infantry model in cover (1+ armor save) with T5 and 8 wounds, with the ability of a couple drones to take the big nasty melta shots.   I'd either keep the broadside as is but have it lose the infantry keyword (change to vehicle) or else increase base cost by 15 points.

 

-Hammerhead.

 The Rail gun just needs to get toned down.  Either lose the ignore Invuln, or decrease the overall damage (including the mortal wounds), or increase the cost of the model to around 190 points. Also, submunitions is all kinds of OP and stupid; if you get the best dedicated AT gun in the game you shouldn't also get the ability to turn it into a reliable horde-clearing weapon for 1 CP. 

 

-Skyray Gunship.

 Overall, I think the SRG is pretty much fine. Might need to go up a few points, but I wouldn't die in a ditch over this. 

 

-Devilfish.

 Dear God, where do I begin here.  The absolute best transport in the game.  It flies, it's got more wounds than an equivalent Astartes transport, it carries more dudes than an Astartes transport.  It gets drone support if it's faced with AT threats.  If we value the ABC ~10 pts (comparable to an assault cannon), and the 2 gun drones ~15 pts total, that puts the base price around 70, making it cheaper than a rhino despite being better in every imaginable way.  And the guns are good. And it gets ridiculously good special rules support in the form of Armoured Aggression which takes Breachers and yeets them up to 11, and/or Tactical Disengagement, which looks really good, but no one will ever use because Mont'ka is currently so stupidly good comparatively that Kauyon is reduced to a lol-meme choice.  Then on top of all that we get the best or at least one of the best stratagems in the codex, Combat Debarkation, for 1 cp.  The cost (in cp) is low, the timing is easy to use (your movement phase) and the conditions are neglibible (3 turns of the game to maximize it).  The limitation (can't charge) is so Lol as to be an insult to the opponent (like who the feth is going to charge with breachers or strike teams anyway).  "I would have won this game if only I could have charged with my breachers after disembarking them!" - said no Tau player ever in the history of 40k. I don't even know how to fix the Devilfish.  At the least I'd say the stratagem needs to be eliminated or reduced to 1 model.  The wounds need to be reduced to 10-11 to make it more in line with every other DT equivalent, and it could probably still stand to go up 15 points to account for it's fly ability and special deployment abilities.

 

-Razorshark and Sunshark

 probably could both each come down about 10 points.

 

-Stormsurge.

 Lol. How anyone looked at this and said "350 points seems about right" when a Repulsor Executioner clocks in at 365, baneblades (and their variants) come in around 500, Imperial Knights come in around ~425...it's a complete mystery to me.  When you combine the cost of the stormsurge with everything else in the army I just have to wonder if a 12 year old wrote the codex.

 

Again, I want to add...I'm not suggesting that my fixes above are perfect or all-encompassing, though I think they are in the ballpark, and even half of the above would go a long way to fixing things.  I don't claim to be Siegler or Nanavati, but just because I can't perform surgery doesn't mean I can't identify when a person is bleeding to death.

Edited April 2, 2022 by 9x19 Parabellum

[Malakithe]

I can see points changes but profile or ability changes are very unlikely. I agree the Devilfish strat is arguably the best strat in the game and at the very least bump it to 2CP. But GW wont do crazy sweeping changes to things like Mont'ka or dropping the Battlesuits ability.

 

Besides none of this will matter once Nids are released as they will murder/eat every faction including the murder clowns. 

[9x19 Parabellum]

I can see points changes but profile or ability changes are very unlikely. I agree the Devilfish strat is arguably the best strat in the game and at the very least bump it to 2CP. But GW wont do crazy sweeping changes to things like Mont'ka or dropping the Battlesuits ability.

 

Besides none of this will matter once Nids are released as they will murder/eat every faction including the murder clowns. 

 

I think what is likely is that:

-base costs will go up.

-a couple stratagems might get changed

-and I *do* think there will be some internal balancing between Mont'ka and Kauyon as they are wildly out of balance with each other. 

 

As far as 'Nids and Harlies...I don't play those factions so I can't speak to them.  I do play Tau so I do have a vested interest and desire to see them balanced.   But just because another codex is imbalanced doesn't mean we shouldn't look to police our own faction.  Noticeable imbalance is NEVER good for the game.  At my FLGS we started with just 9 people in our escalation league compared to the 16-20 we normally get, and several people have already dropped out of the league, and I will likely avoid the Tau player at 1k points, or else just concede if I have to play him (not wasting 2 hours of my time with that abuse).  I've heard grumblings about "my codex is trash"...the current state of the game is not good.  

[tychobi]

Tau and Harlequins are so frowned upon at local small events around here that they are effectively banned. Nothing official but most opponents just refuse the game so organizers recomend bringing anything else.

[Toldavf]

Shield drones in big crisis teams provide to much ablation for their points. Clearing 10 shield drones requires an inordinate amount of firepower for the points cost of the unit.

 

The second wound makes them to tough for such a cheap unit. They should be more expensive or only a single wound.

[9x19 Parabellum]

Tau and Harlequins are so frowned upon at local small events around here that they are effectively banned. Nothing official but most opponents just refuse the game so organizers recomend bringing anything else.

 

This is so sad, and terrible for the state of the game. Imagine being new to the game, having no idea how or why your Tau army is considered oppressive and being socially pressured into not taking your army to a tourney or event.

[chapter master 454]

I feel like...there is one part in understanding that sort of feeling but at the same time...certainly not a nice thing to have the Tau denied any chance of being around. As much as playing an underdog is fun, it isn't fun when the entire tournament is "play underdogs only"...at that point no-one is an underdog. I mean, do they think the players that would bring the disgusting high tier lists aren't going to do the same with any other army? As long as you set the expectations of the tournament among the players that attend that should do, if anyone is stepping out of line a TO can step in and sort things out, or maybe the player themselves misjudged something they brought and may want to tone that down themselves.

However...tournament means competition. Unless the entire tournament is based around some unique gimmick or handicap (like playing Imperial Guard haha...oh...oh...).

 

However sadly, the hive mind of the gathering often over-rules. Sadly, I do feel there is also an essence of bias...after all Tau Empire is THE faction that is cool to hate on. People want their dark gritty universe to be darker and grittier than a driveway. Just my 2 cents on that mentality, which is ultimately the group itself isn't much fun.

 

Guess I am lucky to have a rather open and broad club I go to, where the range of play is anywhere from fun and silly to ultra competitive. I've done games with new players that are fun introductions to giving players practice games for tournaments with me being asked specifically to act like a "That Guy" just to make sure they aren't messing rules up...feels nice having that level of options for playing.

Hopefully GW appeases those with a reasonable dataslate for all needed. Not saying we don't deserve some toning down but I feel the among of flakk we are getting is way and above what we deserve. Personally, Broadsides lose core (because WHY were they core to begin with?) and I can understand giving Crisis suits a small points bump. However...if I can wishlist a little: can the forge world stuff get looked at for some points drops...please?

[9x19 Parabellum]

I don't hate Tau, I love my tau army.  I don't care about the grimdarkiness stuff.   This isn't about hating on a faction.

 

Anyway, I lost against Bor'kan tonight at 1k points in our e-league playing my new Aeldari, 83-13.  Granted it was my first time every playing Aeldari, so there's that.

[Malakithe]

I don't hate Tau, I love my tau army.  I don't care about the grimdarkiness stuff.   This isn't about hating on a faction.

 

Anyway, I lost against Bor'kan tonight at 1k points in our e-league playing my new Aeldari, 83-13.  Granted it was my first time every playing Aeldari, so there's that.

Bork Bork at 1k...was it a durability thing? Or was he crazy enough to take a Stormsurge in a 1k game?

[Malakithe]

Well...kinda surprised they changed Mont'ka but thats not bad. The real reason to use it was for movement anyway. The AP and re-roll were a bonus. 

 

Broadsides losing Core was obvious and largely expected. 

 

The stacking of negative charge roll modifiers was kinda bs anyway.

 

Lately there has been a general almost hate for non-LoS shooting but I was surprised by that overall change. Makes AFPs nearly useless unless you have Ork levels of dice. And now they are completely useless again all power armor factions. 

 

Bodyguard rule is fine. Just requires people to actually think about positioning now.

 

The one thing though that was expect was points changes...to which there was none at all. That part surprised me the most but the more I thought about the more I realized that changing points isnt really a fix. Changing core rules and mechanics is a much better way to achieve overall balance. There is so much rules bloat right now that changing or removing some layers of rules I think will be better in the long run for the game.

 

My list hasnt changed outside of swapping AFPs to Missile Pods for my ranged Crisis team and change to the prototype Burst Cannon on my Enforcer. 

[Tawnis]

I think if the changed to Mont'ka were the only ones then it would have been fine, but with the new rule of Power Armor also reducing AP by one, it puts us back to Str:5 AP:0 in most of our matches. I was working on a heavy infantry list, and yeah -2 AP was a bit much, but 0 certainly feels like not enough. 

 

To me, it feels like they overcorrected on that one. 

[chapter master 454]

It only is in effect against power armour which granted is fairly common but was also getting dunked on left and right despite being "the best protection". If anything you were better off slapping some flak on, find a hefty metal plate and tape a car battery to the back of it. Now at least power armour feels worth it.

 

The indirect fire nerf however was the curve ball. However considering how often it can just suddenly appear and cause mass havoc on any meta it really isn't unsurprising. GW's rule team getting tired of reports of a unit being too good because of Ignore LoS so they just straight up put the bat to the kneecaps of all units that get it that aren't imperial guard. To be fair, warranted. Does catch other weapons in the crossfire.

[9x19 Parabellum]

I agree the indirect fire nerf was...inelegant. 

 

I think a nice solution, ESPECIALLY for Tau, would be to have various "scout" type units:  Stealth Suits, Ghostkeel, Firesight Marksman, Pathfinders and Piranha, get a 'coordinate fire' ability.  Basically as an action they can 'call in' fire support to a unit they can see which can then fire at it at full balistic skill.

[Malakithe]

I think if the changed to Mont'ka were the only ones then it would have been fine, but with the new rule of Power Armor also reducing AP by one, it puts us back to Str:5 AP:0 in most of our matches. I was working on a heavy infantry list, and yeah -2 AP was a bit much, but 0 certainly feels like not enough. 

 

To me, it feels like they overcorrected on that one. 

The way you could play it now is massed gunfire. Just become Greater Good Orks and roll a :cuss ton of dice. Massed Pulse Rifles, Burst Cannons, and Flamers

 

AFPs are actually worse against power armor then Pulse Rifle spam.

 

Or...stay with me here...Stealth/Ghostkeel + Drone Controller + 12 Gun drones. Thats 48 Str5 shots and massive board coverage. 

[Tawnis]

 

I think if the changed to Mont'ka were the only ones then it would have been fine, but with the new rule of Power Armor also reducing AP by one, it puts us back to Str:5 AP:0 in most of our matches. I was working on a heavy infantry list, and yeah -2 AP was a bit much, but 0 certainly feels like not enough. 

 

To me, it feels like they overcorrected on that one. 

The way you could play it now is massed gunfire. Just become Greater Good Orks and roll a ton of dice. Massed Pulse Rifles, Burst Cannons, and Flamers

 

AFPs are actually worse against power armor then Pulse Rifle spam.

 

Or...stay with me here...Stealth/Ghostkeel + Drone Controller + 12 Gun drones. Thats 48 Str5 shots and massive board coverage. 

 

I've actually been considering that, glad to know it works well.