Blackshields - Orphans of War - who gets to re-roll 1s?

[RoadRunna]

Blackshields take a Wrought by War rule which "...the owning player may choose one of the following special rules to apply to their entire detachment.."  One o f these is called Orphans of War has the following rule:

 

"Non-Character models with this special rule: When within 6" of another unit of at least five friendly models with the Legion Astartes (Blackshields) special rule, the unit gains +1 Leadership (to a maximum of 10), and can re-roll all failed To Hit roll of a 1 during the Shooting phase Assault phase.  They may not however benefit from the Leadership value of other models, and if they fail a Moral check in the Assault phase, D3 models from the unit are removed as casualties in addition to any other effects

 

Character models with this special rule: Gain the Preferred Enemy (Character) special rule"

 

Question is: do vehicles which are within 6" of a unit of 5 friendly models (say a Marauder Squad) gain the ability to re-roll ones?

 

My opponent was of the view that Non-character models includes vehicles.  His position was that if the writers wanted to exclude vehicles they would have said "Non-Character Infantry models".  In the rules the definition of models is very broad "Models represent a huge variety of troops - from the massed forces of the Legion Astartes to the automata and the titanic constructs of the Mechanicum"

 

My view as that this rule is only applicable to infantry models

 

During the discussion it was also raised that the usage of the word "another" dictates that the unit wishing to gain the benefit of this rule must also be 5 strong - therefore if there were two units of Marauders next to each other, one was 5 strong and one was 4 strong, then neither get this rule) - not sure about this strict grammatical issue but this is for another day  )

 

[Cactus]

RAW, I think your opponent is correct. The Wrought By War selection applies to the entire detachment and I see no reason why a vehicle can't benefit from them.

[Gorgoff]

Since vehicles can't take leadership Tests it is pretty obvious to me who is meant by this rule and who not. "Another unit of..." indicates that as well. Edited February 13, 2022 by Gorgoff

[TheTrans]

To me, either from my reading or at least an RAI was that WBW was only applicable to to LA(Black Shields) models and vehicles don't have the LA rule, much akin to their standard legion counterparts. 

If this wasn't the Case you'd get landraiders with FnP saves from Death Seekers, Deep Striking Heavy Flamer support sections in an AODC Outlanders force or even some -1 Charge Distance and no SA Dreads in a Chymeriae army. 

But yeah thats my take. 

[corvus.calvariam]

To me, either from my reading or at least an RAI was that WBW was only applicable to to LA(Black Shields) models and vehicles don't have the LA rule, much akin to their standard legion counterparts.

 

If this wasn't the Case you'd get landraiders with FnP saves from Death Seekers, Deep Striking Heavy Flamer support sections in an AODC Outlanders force or even some -1 Charge Distance and no SA Dreads in a Chymeriae army.

 

But yeah thats my take.

The other Wroughts are more specific in who gets the additional rules. In your Outlanders example, only infantry may deep strike. Feel no Pain also has no effect on vehicles since in the main Rulebook, it is specified it only works on wounds.

 

Rules as worded I do think the wording supports vehicles benefiting from the effects where applicable, especially since the Wrought by War description says it applies to the whole detachment.

Edited February 15, 2022 by raeho

[TheTrans]

 

To me, either from my reading or at least an RAI was that WBW was only applicable to to LA(Black Shields) models and vehicles don't have the LA rule, much akin to their standard legion counterparts.

 

If this wasn't the Case you'd get landraiders with FnP saves from Death Seekers, Deep Striking Heavy Flamer support sections in an AODC Outlanders force or even some -1 Charge Distance and no SA Dreads in a Chymeriae army.

 

But yeah thats my take.

The other Wroughts are more specific in who gets the additional rules. In your Outlanders example, only infantry may deep strike. Feel no Pain also has no effect on vehicles since in the main Rulebook, it is specified it only works on wounds.

 

Rules as worded I do think the wording supports vehicles benefiting from the effects where applicable, especially since the Wrought by War description says it applies to the whole detachment.

 

Again mate, those heavy flamer sections could deep strike given they are infantry, but not LA(BS). 

 

So you're saying you think its fine people running Chymerae Dreads with +1 S? or +1 BS and WS? Or hell a leviathan with fear, fleet and rage? 

 

I believe your interpretation is horrifically wrong, but each to our own I suppose. 

Edited February 16, 2022 by TheTrans

[corvus.calvariam]

I think you misunderstand me. To avoid conflict based on interpretation, I believe we need to first work out how things function RAW, then edit them based on how we want our own games to go.

 

The main question was whether the vehicles in a detachment benefit from the rules. My position is that nowhere in the rules states that this wouldn't be the case. Until the rules get updated, that's an objective truth that they can now work with. They can decide if that's how they want to play the game, or decide that they should enforce limitations.

 

I haven't brought up how I myself play the game because I don't think RAI helps solve a problem where the issue is two players disagree on matters of interpretation in the first place.

Edited February 16, 2022 by raeho

[Gorgoff]

I think you misunderstand me. To avoid conflict based on interpretation, I believe we need to first work out how things function RAW, then edit them based on how we want our own games to go.

 

The main question was whether the vehicles in a detachment benefit from the rules. My position is that nowhere in the rules states that this wouldn't be the case. Until the rules get updated, that's an objective truth that they can now work with. They can decide if that's how they want to play the game, or decide that they should enforce limitations.

 

I haven't brought up how I myself play the game because I don't think RAI helps solve a problem where the issue is two players disagree on matters of interpretation in the first place.

"Another unit" is the key. Vehicles have no leadership and they are not a unit of at least 5 models therefore they are not meant.