SoT book 7: Echoes of Eternity - Aaron Dembski-Bowden

[lansalt]

9 minutes ago, DukeLeto69 said:

What a shame that so many of us just feel worn out and jaded. I reconciled with myself some years back that for me the HH was a setting rather than a story (sort of) and started buying but skipping some books (based on reviews etc).

 

The Heresy series really needs several curated reading guides. Tryng to read it all in the official default order it's terrible between all the jumps, meaningless filler stories, and key plot points in random places.  Without lexicanum to find out things, I would have given up long ago.

 

 

 

 

 

[Carach]

Finished the book last night. 

 

Reading some of the comments in here, it seems some authors are damned if they do, damned if they don't.

 

People simultaneously complaining of bloat, but also complaining that ADB didn't include some threads in his book?

 

Personally, I am glad he managed to narrow down the scope whilst keeping a lot of 'epicness' in play. The book may be big, but is largely lacking in needless bolterporn and absurdly, equally needless bean counting. You almost feel things speeding up to the fated end of sorts with the last part of the book (the retreating and running battle)

 

I think, like MoM, he managed to world build effectively with background/lore etc, and move the plot on effectively, having had to follow on from some real slogs in story from other books. Warhawk also did well in managing to... correct the course of this 'mini-series' in a similar manner.

 

You don't *need* everyone's threads in every novel of a story spanning billions of people, covering a huge area.

 

Considering where we are at the end of Echoes, I would.. echo (lol) Roomsky's thoughts regarding Abnett being set up to tell and conclude those threads he introduced, in the mega-novel/2parter whatever-we-get conclusion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 29, 2022 by Carach

[Taliesin]

On 12/25/2022 at 8:26 PM, Roomsky said:

Regarding the lack of ongoing Siege plotlines in this book, until we get further light shed on the authors' process, I don't know if it's wholly fair to blame ADB for their lack in Echoes. Bear in mind, many of these threads seem to be Abnett's creation, and he likely requested a certain world state be in effect by the time The End and the Death came around. Obviously I don't KNOW this, but when we look at the end of Warhawk and see:

• Ollanius, now with his backstory explained, has been reunited with John and joined by Actae and Alpharius. They're are on their way to the palace
• Fo escaped, revealing that Andromeda is a spanner in the works. Fo is recaptured by Valdor who seems to be on board with his genophage plan.
• Loken, Katsuhiro, and Keeler have assembled and are marching with the new faith
• Sindermann and Co. are out on an adventure

I'm not saying ADB had NO say in his books content (I wouldn't be surprised if he requested Wraight and French have these points in place before Echoes,) but I think it's just as likely that Abnett underestimated just how long it would take for him to tell his big finale. Add to that that Abnett must have started TEatD while ADB was still writing, it looks likely to me that there'd have been no time to correct too much being left for the last book. I'm not sure what ADB would even have written about for most of these characters in Echoes, beyond a check-in stating "yep, they're still doing what they were doing."

 

We do know that ADB consulted very frequently with Abnett during the writing of book 7 because he posted about it on his facebook/twitter.

While he was writing book 7, Abnett was writing 8, so we know they were being written somewhat simultaneously ( ADB had a headstart).

[Arkangilos]

Was just relistening to the chapter where Sanguinius meets the Emperor and was intrigued by the line, “You are a gamble against the death of hope. A roll of the dice at the end of the game.”

 

This really got me thinking along the “it was planned” potential twist. Maybe he knew Sanguinius’s sacrifice would be necessary to keep hope in emperor and imperium alive so that the sacrifices made would keep going until the right time.

 

Also, this sort of confirms the Shaman lore, because it keeps talking about all the souls reflected in the emperor’s eyes.

[Scribe]

1 hour ago, Arkangilos said:

Also, this sort of confirms the Shaman lore, because it keeps talking about all the souls reflected in the emperor’s eyes.

 

Yes, a nice nod to the lore there.

[Lord_Caerolion]

On 12/24/2022 at 2:57 PM, Moonreaper666 said:

The defenders are outnumbered 21600-one!!!

Wow, sure was nice that the Black Library authors gave you, Moonreaper666, random forum-goer, personal confirmation of the exact numbers of both the Traitor and Loyalist forces!

[Moonreaper666]

On 12/30/2022 at 5:01 PM, Lord_Caerolion said:

Wow, sure was nice that the Black Library authors gave you, Moonreaper666, random forum-goer, personal confirmation of the exact numbers of both the Traitor and Loyalist forces!

 

I already gave a quote stating there were only 100k defenders at Eternity Gate in Echoes

 

I also gave a quote in Mortis in which the Spaceports can bring Millions of people and Billions of tons of material to Terra every hour

 

The Traitors had control of both Spaceports for over 30 days

 

Assuming 10 Million Traitor Imperial Army personnel every hour then the Traitors landed 7.2 BILLION Traitors on both Spaceports from the end of First Wall up to the middle of Warhawk!!!

 

That does not include the COUNTLESS Billions that landed outside the Spaceports during Lost and Damned ALONE!!!!!

 

Billions more Traitors landed during First Wall. Billions more landed outside the Lion Gate Spaceport during Saturnine

 

Not a single Dark Mechanicum Skitarii fought in Saturnine, Mortis, Warhawk or Echoes!

[Ubiquitous1984]

I’m re-listening to Echoes to refresh myself before diving into book 8.  I’ve just finished the IX legion history chapters, and I know they are divisive and perhaps don’t fit in a Siege novel … but wow.   I don’t think there has been 100 or so pages in the history of 30k literature that adds the same quality of depth as what those chapters do.  ADB did a tremendous job rescuing the IXth IMO.  If he hadn’t explored their history here, when will we have ever had that exposure?  It was masterfully done.  The contrast between Angron and Sangunius at the end of the fighting pit battle is simply amazing.

 

 

[Tolmeus]

Not really on topic, but could only advise to dive in Sanguinius Primarch book after that if you want to get the full Blood Angels 30k experience. I think it is a nice get up between ADB and Chris Wraight 

[Ubiquitous1984]

3 hours ago, Tolmeus said:

Not really on topic, but could only advise to dive in Sanguinius Primarch book after that if you want to get the full Blood Angels 30k experience. I think it is a nice get up between ADB and Chris Wraight 

I’ve literally just finished that book, I wanted to read it first before starting my re-read of EoE.

 

Blood Angel fans are extremely lucky that ADB and Chris Wraight have both written about the legion.  

[Nagashsnee]

12 hours ago, Ubiquitous1984 said:

 

Blood Angel fans are extremely lucky that ADB and Chris Wraight have both written about the legion.  

Thisx100. Echoes will always have a special place for many BA fans because it came in after many had given up hope for BA quality in the HH and literally at the last min gave the starving masses a feast, and just when it could not get any better Wraight swept in with desert. 

[lansalt]

13 hours ago, Ubiquitous1984 said:

Blood Angel fans are extremely lucky that ADB and Chris Wraight have both written about the legion.  

 

Yeah, but it's a bit strange, because EoE has the actual Sanguinius/BA origin story, and The Great Angel is more of an introduction to the legion in 30k from an outsider's point of view. Almost like a prequel to Fear To Tread.

[Tolmeus]

'The Great Angel' does give a great foreshadowing of the image of Sanguinius and the role of the Blood Angels in 40k though. So it is argueably a good transition from 30k to 40k

[Corinthus]

I feel like I'm alone in my opinion that EoE was quite a mess and felt like ADB just wasn't very into it. Amit reads like Sigismund 2.0. More Khârn carbon copy World Eaters. Another weak Primarch duel just after the unnecessary fight against Ka'Bandha. A Blood Angel's book were Raldoron and Azkaellon are still missing, but we can have more flashbacks of the ship's fighting pits that show up in literally every HH book so far.

 

ADB has written many great books for Warhammer, but not this one. This one felt disconnected, sometimes boring, sometimes claustrophobic storywise.

 

And finally and in a more general context, I liked how the Siege started in book one: massive scale, millions of ships. One explosion in the void deleting hundreads of thousands souls. Later, the traitors land in Terra, encircling the continent sized Palace with millions of troops and warmachines... this is Warhammer 40k to me.

 

We all have grown up looking at the illustrations of massive battles with warriors all the way to the horizon but these last books to me don't show the epic and crazy scale the Siege should have. I know we are in the last line of the defense but still, it just feels "small". Sometimes the story demands less character introspection and more big (or huge) picture. I don't really care that much for filler characters and their motivations, I want to hear Dorn speak about how the last offensive of the Sons of Horus reached the Vaults of whatever, where a small size city population was hiding behind the last remnants of the 82th Imperial Fist company and they were all massacred and their screaming was broadcasted through the Vox for everyone to hear.

 

I just wanted the scale and the ridiculousness of the WH40k setting... and lately it hasn't feel that way.

[cheywood]

10 minutes ago, Corinthus said:

 

I just wanted the scale and the ridiculousness of the WH40k setting... and lately it hasn't feel that way.

I’m sure Abnett will be bringing his usual sense of immensity to the finale at least, and we’ve already had 6 novels that spent countless pages emphasizing scale. I loved that ADB went the opposite route. It made his story so much more unique, like a poem amidst prose. But I can understand why it’s not for everyone. 

 

 

[Bobss]

1 hour ago, Corinthus said:

I feel like I'm alone in my opinion that EoE was quite a mess and felt like ADB just wasn't very into it. Amit reads like Sigismund 2.0. More Khârn carbon copy World Eaters. Another weak Primarch duel just after the unnecessary fight against Ka'Bandha. A Blood Angel's book were Raldoron and Azkaellon are still missing, but we can have more flashbacks of the ship's fighting pits that show up in literally every HH book so far.

 

ADB has written many great books for Warhammer, but not this one. This one felt disconnected, sometimes boring, sometimes claustrophobic storywise.

 

And finally and in a more general context, I liked how the Siege started in book one: massive scale, millions of ships. One explosion in the void deleting hundreads of thousands souls. Later, the traitors land in Terra, encircling the continent sized Palace with millions of troops and warmachines... this is Warhammer 40k to me.

 

We all have grown up looking at the illustrations of massive battles with warriors all the way to the horizon but these last books to me don't show the epic and crazy scale the Siege should have. I know we are in the last line of the defense but still, it just feels "small". Sometimes the story demands less character introspection and more big (or huge) picture. I don't really care that much for filler characters and their motivations, I want to hear Dorn speak about how the last offensive of the Sons of Horus reached the Vaults of whatever, where a small size city population was hiding behind the last remnants of the 82th Imperial Fist company and they were all massacred and their screaming was broadcasted through the Vox for everyone to hear.

 

I just wanted the scale and the ridiculousness of the WH40k setting... and lately it hasn't feel that way.

 

The Solar War is still my favourite Siege book for some of these reasons

[Nagashsnee]

6 hours ago, Bobss said:

 

The Solar War is still my favourite Siege book for some of these reasons

My main issue with the solar was was the total lack of the 'great' ships, gloriannas, the emperors 2 ships ( tho we got one way latter in the series) the phalanx never really made it into combat.  Especially for the loyalists it was a chance to explain why things like the red tear is no longer around latter on, and to give us a little DAOT fan service with the emperors/custodian ships. Instead we got way too many pages on the deamon/oliton sub plot (which in turn takes out the only real chance to see the Phalanx at the heigh of its power unleashed)  while the actual fall of terran orbital space and the heart of battlefleet solar just kinda happened. 

 

Tho I will confess as a die hard BFG fanatic I am biased towards ship to ship combat.  

[Moonreaper666]

45 minutes ago, Nagashsnee said:

My main issue with the solar was was the total lack of the 'great' ships, gloriannas, the emperors 2 ships ( tho we got one way latter in the series) the phalanx never really made it into combat.  Especially for the loyalists it was a chance to explain why things like the red tear is no longer around latter on, and to give us a little DAOT fan service with the emperors/custodian ships. Instead we got way too many pages on the deamon/oliton sub plot (which in turn takes out the only real chance to see the Phalanx at the heigh of its power unleashed)  while the actual fall of terran orbital space and the heart of battlefleet solar just kinda happened. 

 

Tho I will confess as a die hard BFG fanatic I am biased towards ship to ship combat.  

 

The End and The Death would definitely have another ship battle. So you will enjoy the Finale

[lansalt]

9 hours ago, Corinthus said:

I feel like I'm alone in my opinion that EoE was quite a mess

I also agree. EoE has a lot of individually great stories, but as a whole it seems like less than the sum of its parts. Too many flashbacks, fake deaths, and the Ka'bandha/Angron duels one after the other robbed both of relevance. Thankfully ADB prose saves it, especially at the end.

 

1 hour ago, Nagashsnee said:

My main issue with the solar was was the total lack of the 'great' ships

 

The same happened with Mortis and the lack of proper titan battles and narrative about them. For some reason (marketing?), BL loves to give books titles that do not match their contents. Remember Prospero Burns?

[System Sound]

1 hour ago, lansalt said:

The same happened with Mortis and the lack of proper titan battles and narrative about them. For some reason (marketing?), BL loves to give books titles that do not match their contents. Remember Prospero Burns?

And Talarn. And Titandeath.

[DarkChaplain]

I don't think Tallarn is a fair pick here. It's an anthology of various stories titled "Tallarn: Something", each with a more narrow scope that nonetheless was intended to give the big picture by way of a vertical slice.

 

Personally, Tallarn: Executioner, the initial novella, was excellent when it came to showing the war's "early" phases. It's the best piece in there. But some of the short stories also show interesting slices. It's with the short novel that it lets things down, hard. Sadly, that one also has the highest page count. The novel itself fails to live up to its own top-down interludes, which are the only thing that really hints at the scope of the war for Tallarn in that individual part of the book.

[Bobss]

On 2/16/2023 at 6:35 AM, Nagashsnee said:

My main issue with the solar was was the total lack of the 'great' ships, gloriannas, the emperors 2 ships ( tho we got one way latter in the series) the phalanx never really made it into combat.  Especially for the loyalists it was a chance to explain why things like the red tear is no longer around latter on, and to give us a little DAOT fan service with the emperors/custodian ships. Instead we got way too many pages on the deamon/oliton sub plot (which in turn takes out the only real chance to see the Phalanx at the heigh of its power unleashed)  while the actual fall of terran orbital space and the heart of battlefleet solar just kinda happened. 

 

Tho I will confess as a die hard BFG fanatic I am biased towards ship to ship combat.  

I mean, Horus' push into the Sol System is possibly the biggest reason why different Solar cultures don't exist in M41. Perturabo's assault on Jovian space would've made the attack on the Uranus gate look like a picnic - but it's skipped over. The assault on Jupiter, conquest of Terran orbit and the Martians breaking their blockade are touched on at best - but as I've said before there's only so many turbo lasers and broadsides you can read before it loses its effect. Again, the Red Tear IS there, but its role isn't really delved into besides hanging around Luna. Considering how huge and frankly excessive later Siege books have been, French probably could've made TSW 50% bigger but chose not to. People comment on various ships not being present, but I thought the disappearance of certain IX Legionaries in Echoes was just as hmm'ing

 

I thought the Oliton plot was pretty well done all things considered. It served a purpose, it was fairly believable, it was somewhat clever, it had a momentum to it that mirrored the traitors' own push and it didn't take up as many pages as later 'mortal plots' would

Edited February 19, 2023 by Bobss

[Urauloth]

On 2/15/2023 at 10:26 PM, cheywood said:

I’m sure Abnett will be bringing his usual sense of immensity to the finale at least

Abnett is very odd in this regard, because he'll write breathtaking descriptions of things that are truly colossal in scale, but then he'll give you numbers for the people involved and it's like 6 guys and a dog.

 

Anyway, I finally got started on Echoes. I'm halfway through it right now, and it's... insane. ADB is a big proponent of "everyone is wrong" as far as WH factions go, and this is his bloodiest exposition on that idea so far. Just about everyone in this book is absolutely terrible, and they're all having an absolutely horrible time of it to boot. It definitely does an incredible job of capturing how nightmarish the Siege has become, as well as illustrating the breakdown of the Warmaster's armies.

Land being "rescued" by a Death Guard legionary only for him to be attacked in turn by a blood-mad World Eater is a great scene

[Dornfist]

Having both read and listened to this book, I wanted to share my thoughts.

 

Overall, I liked this book: it certainly helped Sanguinuis and the Blood Angels shine though I was also confused as to where Raldoron and Azkaellon were at in the retreat to Eternity Gate.

 

Spoiler

Some more pros: getting the first meeting between the Emperor and Sanguinuis was a delicious morsel, Arkhan Land and Zephon were cool, Amit was intriguing, Sanguinuis' speech at the Ultimate Wall was great as well as how he met and joined the Revenant Legion (really this part amazed me), and Vulkan's journey into the Webway was fun. Finally, I felt bad for Sarrin. Ah well, you reap what you sow I guess.

 

Now onto my gripes:

• The Crusade era flasbacks: I liked them, but I also felt they could have been their separate novella to complement the Sanguinuis primarch book.
• "Howl of the Hearthworld": as others in this thread have suggested, having a separate short story to wrap up their arc would have been nice instead of just Rykath being the last man standing while the rest of his pack is long dead.
• Kargos' fake out death was kind of unnecessary. Though I did like Amit's scathing one liners for both encounters.
• Ka'Bandha being there was weird though I understand why ADB had to include him. I kind of prefer the old lore of Ka'Bandha getting his back broken by Sanguinuis at Eternity Gate but I was fine with the Angel taking on Angron.
• Angron v. Sanguinuis duel was fine except the end: like how many times are we going to get that move of "good guy tanks fatal strike to get close and deal a killing blow to his opponent". To date, we have three Siege duels that ended like this lol. If there was one time I liked this move it was in the Alpharius v. Dorn duel from way back in book 39 PoD.

All in all, EoE was good. I kind of like that ADB took a more grounded approach by focusing on a few characters instead of taking us back to massive scale and all. His book also did not have that much filler compared to TEATD vol 1 which I recently finished. All in all, I give him kudos.

Edited March 18, 2023 by Dornfist