SoT book 7: Echoes of Eternity - Aaron Dembski-Bowden

[Ubiquitous1984]

 

 

Back to this novel. 

 

Where do you guys think it will end? Do we know if the final book is still going to be two or just one grand one? If the later then perhaps this could conclude at Christmas 2022.

 

I am curious of the perpetual John with his new weapon will be used.

 

I believe the final book will be set almost completely on board the Vengeful Spirit and will end with the Emperor's entombment. I don't even think we'll get particularly much on the traitors rout other than a few footnotes about the Bagels going berserk and whatnot. Horus will be dead, both Angron and Mortarion will be banished, Fulgrim will clear off, Perturabo has already left, Lorgar isn't there, Curze was never there and Alpharius/Omegon are Alpharius/Omegon. I would also wager the final book will be different POVs fighting their way through the ship

 

I have a feeling Echoes. will be split into three main theatres: the defence of the Eternity Gate, the Defence of Bhab Bastion, the Defence of the Tower of Hegemon, and there will be the odd bit on the Tarot Squad, Loken & Keeler and maybe the space theatre if ADB reuses Lotara at some point, like maybe a ''oh hey the Ultramarines have just rocked up.''

 

Part of me wouldn't be surprised if the book ends with the teleport going wrong and Abnett picks up the pieces...

 

 

Good call all around. I thought Angron walked off, but I can see that changing.

 

I legit feel existential dread, at the thought of them ruining the last books of the series. I shouldnt, I'm a grown ass old man, but a majority of my life is tied up in this setting/IP/series, and so here we are...

 

That’s funny because I have zero concerns!  With Dan and ADB in charge, we are in the absolute safest of hands.  And the source material is just absolutely epic.  Imagine how awesome the book would be if it was just dealing with Sangunius dealing with the Eternity Gate?  Now on top of that you have everything else going on, with so many incredible characters involved … it’s going to be amazing imo!  

[MarineRaider]

 

Back to this novel. 

 

Where do you guys think it will end? Do we know if the final book is still going to be two or just one grand one? If the later then perhaps this could conclude at Christmas 2022.

 

I am curious of the perpetual John with his new weapon will be used.

 

I believe the final book will be set almost completely on board the Vengeful Spirit and will end with the Emperor's entombment. I don't even think we'll get particularly much on the traitors rout other than a few footnotes about the Bagels going berserk and whatnot. Horus will be dead, both Angron and Mortarion will be banished, Fulgrim will clear off, Perturabo has already left, Lorgar isn't there, Curze was never there and Alpharius/Omegon are Alpharius/Omegon. I would also wager the final book will be different POVs fighting their way through the ship

 

I have a feeling Echoes. will be split into three main theatres: the defence of the Eternity Gate, the Defence of Bhab Bastion, the Defence of the Tower of Hegemon, and there will be the odd bit on the Tarot Squad, Loken & Keeler and maybe the space theatre if ADB reuses Lotara at some point, like maybe a ''oh hey the Ultramarines have just rocked up.''

 

Part of me wouldn't be surprised if the book ends with the teleport going wrong and Abnett picks up the pieces...

 

 

If that takes 500 pages I would imagine there will be plenty of POV accounts of that action. I am glad ADB is not doing the last book as I am hoping to perhaps get a small sliver into what the E is actually thinking.

[Scribe]

 

 

 

Back to this novel. 

 

Where do you guys think it will end? Do we know if the final book is still going to be two or just one grand one? If the later then perhaps this could conclude at Christmas 2022.

 

I am curious of the perpetual John with his new weapon will be used.

 

I believe the final book will be set almost completely on board the Vengeful Spirit and will end with the Emperor's entombment. I don't even think we'll get particularly much on the traitors rout other than a few footnotes about the Bagels going berserk and whatnot. Horus will be dead, both Angron and Mortarion will be banished, Fulgrim will clear off, Perturabo has already left, Lorgar isn't there, Curze was never there and Alpharius/Omegon are Alpharius/Omegon. I would also wager the final book will be different POVs fighting their way through the ship

 

I have a feeling Echoes. will be split into three main theatres: the defence of the Eternity Gate, the Defence of Bhab Bastion, the Defence of the Tower of Hegemon, and there will be the odd bit on the Tarot Squad, Loken & Keeler and maybe the space theatre if ADB reuses Lotara at some point, like maybe a ''oh hey the Ultramarines have just rocked up.''

 

Part of me wouldn't be surprised if the book ends with the teleport going wrong and Abnett picks up the pieces...

 

 

Good call all around. I thought Angron walked off, but I can see that changing.

 

I legit feel existential dread, at the thought of them ruining the last books of the series. I shouldnt, I'm a grown ass old man, but a majority of my life is tied up in this setting/IP/series, and so here we are...

 

That’s funny because I have zero concerns!  With Dan and ADB in charge, we are in the absolute safest of hands.  And the source material is just absolutely epic.  Imagine how awesome the book would be if it was just dealing with Sangunius dealing with the Eternity Gate?  Now on top of that you have everything else going on, with so many incredible characters involved … it’s going to be amazing imo!  

 

 

If it was ADB, and Wraight, yes I would have no concerns.

[1ncarnadine]

 

With Dan in charge

 

This is the man that concerns me the most, by miles.

 

I love when he's doing something that's more self-contained, like everything in the Sabbat Worlds, and the Inquisitor trilogies up until Bequin (which I still like quite a lot of, but the Yellow King identity may still really throw me depending on how that goes). And he has done some great stuff in the Heresy, don't get me wrong.

 

But I feel like he has a constant urge to create twists and fiddle with big plot stuff that could upset a lot of people by the end of this. I have some amount of faith, but I've been burned before by him so it's not unshakable. He is not someone who can "do no wrong" to me, but does seem to be that to a great many fans, so... we'll see.

[Bobss]

Just wait until it's revealed Guy Haley will be writing the final book. 1.3 million books sold? More like 1.3 billion!

[Scribe]

Just wait until it's revealed Guy Haley will be writing the final book. 1.3 million books sold? More like 1.3 billion!

 

I would be inconsolable. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Back to this novel.

 

Where do you guys think it will end? Do we know if the final book is still going to be two or just one grand one? If the later then perhaps this could conclude at Christmas 2022.

 

I am curious of the perpetual John with his new weapon will be used.

I believe the final book will be set almost completely on board the Vengeful Spirit and will end with the Emperor's entombment. I don't even think we'll get particularly much on the traitors rout other than a few footnotes about the Bagels going berserk and whatnot. Horus will be dead, both Angron and Mortarion will be banished, Fulgrim will clear off, Perturabo has already left, Lorgar isn't there, Curze was never there and Alpharius/Omegon are Alpharius/Omegon. I would also wager the final book will be different POVs fighting their way through the ship

 

I have a feeling Echoes. will be split into three main theatres: the defence of the Eternity Gate, the Defence of Bhab Bastion, the Defence of the Tower of Hegemon, and there will be the odd bit on the Tarot Squad, Loken & Keeler and maybe the space theatre if ADB reuses Lotara at some point, like maybe a ''oh hey the Ultramarines have just rocked up.''

 

Part of me wouldn't be surprised if the book ends with the teleport going wrong and Abnett picks up the pieces...

Good call all around. I thought Angron walked off, but I can see that changing.

 

I legit feel existential dread, at the thought of them ruining the last books of the series. I shouldnt, I'm a grown ass old man, but a majority of my life is tied up in this setting/IP/series, and so here we are...

That’s funny because I have zero concerns! With Dan and ADB in charge, we are in the absolute safest of hands. And the source material is just absolutely epic. Imagine how awesome the book would be if it was just dealing with Sangunius dealing with the Eternity Gate? Now on top of that you have everything else going on, with so many incredible characters involved … it’s going to be amazing imo!

Abnett is a great writer. His series are some of the absolute best in 40k. He sucks at playing well with other authors in a collaborative endeavor.

 

Saturnine was extraordinarily jarring being both so well written, and having every post-human character be so off.

 

If Abnetts books focus on Ol and the gang and maybe sanguinius and the BA, chaos Horus, maybe even the emperor; stuff that hasn't had 50 books to develop and take a proscribed tone, then it'll be a banger. If it's writing other authors established characters, them it'll be good on its own merits, as frustrating to read as the lost and the damned primarch scene.

 

Edit: didn't even see moonreapers post, much like how he didn't even read any of the books he's pulling trivia out of.

 

Aximand had Sigismund dead to rights? Nope. He was literally mid-parry, with nothing indicating he was being falling for feint.

Aximand had felt the pressure give and was lunging forwards. Sigismund raised his sword. But the parry never met.

A long blade slammed Little Horus’ sword down.

 

They then fight again, about 4-5 minutes later and Sigismund frankly humiliates Aximand, with only one good sword hand.

 

We can also say "if only X didn't step in to save Y" for traitors. Like curze saving Lorgar on isstvan. Or Lorgar saving angron on armatura. Or angron saving Lorgar on nuceria. Or angron saving Lorgar again on nuceria. Or Russ feeling bad for Horus on the vengeful spirit.

Edited May 12, 2022 by SkimaskMohawk

[DukeLeto69]

 

@Scribe much as I respect and sympathise with your view, clearly I disagree on the static/sandbox setting vs advancing narrative setting. I fear, for you, it is moving back towards the latter after, as you say, twenty+ years of being static.

 

I get you love the nihilism of the permanently fixed at 2 mins to midnight but IMO it has actually made the setting stale and pointless (perhaps the pointlessness is the appeal for you “you will not be missed”).

 

From a GW pov this makes commercial sense to have a setting with some narrative progression. They want to sell kit. They need to release new kit everyone wants to buy. But if the setting is static, where did this new kit come from and why wasn’t it there before?

 

As an aside - For the new edition of HH they have released a new tank (which is pretty sweet) but the blurb already says “extremely rare in 40k”.

 

It seems really sad to me that you would just walk away from something you have loved so much rather than simply head cannon it!

There are limits to head canon. I've already passed over or just ignore things.

 

The main issue isn't even one of setting advancement. It's maintaining the tone, the soul of the IP.

 

Yes the nihilism is part of it, but what IP is like 40K? Yeah sure GW borrowed (ahem) many things over the decades, but today's 40K, is a thing. It has an essence.

 

The potential changes coming down the pipe stand in opposition to that.

 

You can't head canon that.

Ignoring the real world production reasons for why GW introduced the HH into the setting/background...

 

The Great Crusade and then the Horus Heresy were actually a kind of fantasy trope in having a bygone era of legend when Gods and Demi-Gods walked among us. I too despair at there being so many character linkages in the 40k era. BL started on the right path (well done Abnett) of having new/unknown main characters to drive the story AND create dramatic tension as their fate is unknown. They then slowly slipped into “oh here’s a story about another of your favourite 40k character when they were 10,000 years younger” stripping much of that dramatic tension. Prequelitus!

 

I think it is still possible to have a narrative setting that progresses. It doesn’t have to progress in a positive way. The next edition won’t, IMHO, see the Emp get off the Golden Throne but is more likely to see avatars

The Star Child

declared as prophets or the reincarnation of TGE or the messiah. Some will believe. Some won’t. Cue civil war and strife right at the time the sundered IoM should be pulling together against all these other increasingly worse threats.

 

ie Just at the point when that glimmer of hope is about to be grasped, the self serving self destructive nature of the human race is its’ own worst enemy.

 

Is that nihilist enough?

 

I agree with Nagashee that GW need to be braver and kill off a few major characters. Got a miniature for character xyz, sorry he died so just call that figure Bob now!

[Karhedron]

I agree with Nagashee that GW need to be braver and kill off a few major characters. Got a miniature for character xyz, sorry he died so just call that figure Bob now!

I think a better approach for that is to kill off characters that currently exist in the novels rather than things that exist on the tabletop. For example, we have had 5 years to get to know Felix, he is our POV Primaris Marine in many stories. His death would not affect the game but would certainly be felt in the background.

 

Killing off characters that are on the tabletop seems like a bad idea. It annoys players for no real benefit. Tycho and Eldrad were both killed off in the 3rd edition but 6 editions later you can still field Tycho in your BA armies (even alongside Primaris Marines if you want) while Eldrad's death at Cadia has been retconned entirely. It is one thing to invest in fictional character whose stories you follow. It is another thing to invest money and time in buying and painting a nice model only to be told it is no longer playable just because GW want to add more narrative drama.

Edited May 12, 2022 by Karhedron

[nagashnee]

 

I agree with Nagashee that GW need to be braver and kill off a few major characters. Got a miniature for character xyz, sorry he died so just call that figure Bob now!

I think a better approach for that is to kill off characters that currently exist in the novels rather than things that exist on the tabletop. For example, we have had 5 years to get to know Felix, he is our POV Primaris Marine in many stories. His death would not affect the game but would certainly be felt in the background.

 

Killing off characters that are on the tabletop seems like a bad idea. It annoys players for no real benefit. Tycho and Eldrad were both killed off in the 3rd edition but 6 editions later you can still field Tycho in your BA armies (even alongside Primaris Marines if you want) while Eldrad's death at Cadia has been retconned entirely. It is one thing to invest in fictional character whose stories you follow. It is another thing to invest money and time in buying and painting a nice model only to be told it is no longer playable just because GW want to add more narrative drama.

 

You got me really confused here, you are saying dont kill mini based characters because people have invested time and money in the minis, but then list 2 characters who were killed off ( well one was the other got better) but 4 editions latter can still be used hence not affected the investment at all??

 

Secondly Considering the number of books based on mini based characters + novel based characters who get minis it seems to me we are back to no one is going to die. Other then readshirts who are created to die. 

 

Deaths should be based on a mixture of  3 things for me, 1) time in the setting if they havent done it in 10+ years they aint going to do it 2) Number of stories told, if they have 5-6 books in the setting, 4 campaigns, 5 codexs and 12 short stories its time to move on 3) Potential, if you have a character who is basically a clone of others or cliche, maybe the studio has no good ideas or has already done them,  if no author ever wants to write about them.  Mix these 3 things and i think you will find you can kill off quite a few, and replace them with something fresh.

[Karhedron]

You got me really confused here, you are saying dont kill mini based characters because people have invested time and money in the minis, but then list 2 characters who were killed off ( well one was the other got better) but 4 editions latter can still be used hence not affected the investment at all??

I am just highlighting that GW as tried this before and seemingly decided it was not a good idea. If you want a situation where character deaths are real and permanent, I think that this is better represented in narrative play between friends, rather than GW obsoleting units.

[nagashnee]

 

You got me really confused here, you are saying dont kill mini based characters because people have invested time and money in the minis, but then list 2 characters who were killed off ( well one was the other got better) but 4 editions latter can still be used hence not affected the investment at all??

I am just highlighting that GW as tried this before and seemingly decided it was not a good idea. If you want a situation where character deaths are real and permanent, I think that this is better represented in narrative play between friends, rather than GW obsoleting units.

 

Again, tried with who? Eldrad did not die, so we got tycho?  Who was never made obsolete. So we have a grand total of 0 obsolete and 1 dead characters? While i hate to take the thread futher off topic, i fear firstly you are mixing up rules and lore. As you pointed out lore death does not mean rule death. Secondly units become obsolete this is a fact of the game, i own a fw Chaplain dreadnought, it became legends life finds a way of moving on. If you bought a character mini in the late 90s i don't feel the need to tie the entire game narrative to this decision ( the mini remains usable even without special rules). Otherwise if we cannot actually advance the narrative why bother pretending the narrative is advancing?  

[Moonreaper666]

They can do an Archamus with many Tabletop characters. Have them be killed off and replaced with people that look the same.

 

Helps justify different stats every Edition. So Captain Tycho is replaced by someone who looks like him.

[MarineRaider]

 

I agree with Nagashee that GW need to be braver and kill off a few major characters. Got a miniature for character xyz, sorry he died so just call that figure Bob now!

I think a better approach for that is to kill off characters that currently exist in the novels rather than things that exist on the tabletop. For example, we have had 5 years to get to know Felix, he is our POV Primaris Marine in many stories. His death would not affect the game but would certainly be felt in the background.

 

Killing off characters that are on the tabletop seems like a bad idea. It annoys players for no real benefit. Tycho and Eldrad were both killed off in the 3rd edition but 6 editions later you can still field Tycho in your BA armies (even alongside Primaris Marines if you want) while Eldrad's death at Cadia has been retconned entirely. It is one thing to invest in fictional character whose stories you follow. It is another thing to invest money and time in buying and painting a nice model only to be told it is no longer playable just because GW want to add more narrative drama.

 

That is a very interesting point you raised to someone who does not play the board game. Thanks.

Edited May 13, 2022 by Kelborn
Removed off topic

[Kelborn]

Zogging 'ell....

 

 

=][=

 

This thread has been reviewed and the unrelated talks have been removed.

 

Moonreaper666, you have been informed, warned and called out on several occasions.

 

Stick to the rules like the rest of this community manages to do!

 

You will be contacted by us in the near future.

 

Keep an eye on your pms!

 

=][=

Edited May 13, 2022 by Kelborn
typos

[Felix Antipodes]

Just my opinion, but I suspect that book 1 will be the final showdown between the Emperor and Horus, with book 2 being mainly an epilogue covering the retreat to the Eye of Terror and/or the interment of the Big E onto the Golden Throne.  I also wonder if it will extend far enough to cover the return of the Grey Knights or the formation of the Inquisition in the aftermath.

 

I think this book will advance the storyline up to that point.

Edited May 13, 2022 by Felix Antipodes

[nagashnee]

Just my opinion, but I suspect that book 1 will be the final showdown between the Emperor and Horus, with book 2 being mainly an epilogue covering the retreat to the Eye of Terror and/or the interment of the Big E onto the Golden Throne.  I also wonder if it will extend far enough to cover the return of the Grey Knights or the formation of the Inquisition in the aftermath.

 

I think this book will advance the storyline up to that point.

I can see this book ending with Sang walking back thru the gate aftet the showdown. The next book ending with the Big E walking into Horus throne room and the final book ending with him being put in the chair. 

 

The Heresy should end with the golden throne, the true deathknell of the Imperial dream and the birthcry of the Imperium. Leave the epulogue for the scouring. 

[Scribe]

I still struggle to see how Abnett needs to break up the ending into 2 books. Especially considering the size of these things....just why?

[Bobss]

Just my opinion, but I suspect that book 1 will be the final showdown between the Emperor and Horus, with book 2 being mainly an epilogue covering the retreat to the Eye of Terror and/or the interment of the Big E onto the Golden Throne.  I also wonder if it will extend far enough to cover the return of the Grey Knights or the formation of the Inquisition in the aftermath.

 

I think this book will advance the storyline up to that point.

 

The problem with this is that you're essentially devoting an entire book to post-finale events. I appreciate the Emperor's entombment, final words and so on are much more interesting than, say, the Scouring of the Shire, but nevertheless you're breaking the traditional narrative structure simply to add on details and satisfy fans who want gratuitous amounts of detail. The Solar War is the smallest book of the Siege thus far. It could've been the size of Saturnine or Mortis (or whatever the biggest book is) and gone into much greater detail regarding the Battle of Jupiter, Mars and the contesting of Terra's orbit. Instead Jupiter is skipped, as more POVs would've been needed to cover this, or the Kroeger POV would've been lent on harder, and on top of that it would've just been the Battle of Uranus 2.0 with the same old descriptions. I'm confident Abnett could wrap up the Siege (though not necessarily the Heresy...) with a book about the same size as Saturnine or maybe a little longer. The fighting in the Spirit, the iconic clash, the fighting after this from both Dorn's and Abaddon's perspectives to reclaim their father's bodies, something regarding the Blood Angels going berserk, the traitors' rout and the machinations regarding the Golden Throne. Abnett could even be savvy and include an epilogue scene, or several epilogue scenes, including Sindermann and Moriana chatting about the Inquisiton, referencing that older bit of lore from something I can't remember. Even if Horus vs Emps takes place right at the beginning of book #9 that ultimately leaves book #8 to be nothing but trawling through the Spirit. Ofc that depends on exactly where Echoes. ends but I see it ending somewhere poignant

[1ncarnadine]

I still struggle to see how Abnett needs to break up the ending into 2 books. Especially considering the size of these things....just why?

Was it ever confirmed that it's definitely Siege book 8 that he wanted to break into 2 books? I wondered if it might have been Interceptor City when I heard about that, making a Phantine air corp trilogy. But I've been pretty out of the loop for a while, too.

[Felix Antipodes]

 

Just my opinion, but I suspect that book 1 will be the final showdown between the Emperor and Horus, with book 2 being mainly an epilogue covering the retreat to the Eye of Terror and/or the interment of the Big E onto the Golden Throne.  I also wonder if it will extend far enough to cover the return of the Grey Knights or the formation of the Inquisition in the aftermath.

 

I think this book will advance the storyline up to that point.

 

The problem with this is that you're essentially devoting an entire book to post-finale events. I appreciate the Emperor's entombment, final words and so on are much more interesting than, say, the Scouring of the Shire, but nevertheless you're breaking the traditional narrative structure simply to add on details and satisfy fans who want gratuitous amounts of detail. The Solar War is the smallest book of the Siege thus far. It could've been the size of Saturnine or Mortis (or whatever the biggest book is) and gone into much greater detail regarding the Battle of Jupiter, Mars and the contesting of Terra's orbit. Instead Jupiter is skipped, as more POVs would've been needed to cover this, or the Kroeger POV would've been lent on harder, and on top of that it would've just been the Battle of Uranus 2.0 with the same old descriptions. I'm confident Abnett could wrap up the Siege (though not necessarily the Heresy...) with a book about the same size as Saturnine or maybe a little longer. The fighting in the Spirit, the iconic clash, the fighting after this from both Dorn's and Abaddon's perspectives to reclaim their father's bodies, something regarding the Blood Angels going berserk, the traitors' rout and the machinations regarding the Golden Throne. Abnett could even be savvy and include an epilogue scene, or several epilogue scenes, including Sindermann and Moriana chatting about the Inquisiton, referencing that older bit of lore from something I can't remember. Even if Horus vs Emps takes place right at the beginning of book #9 that ultimately leaves book #8 to be nothing but trawling through the Spirit. Ofc that depends on exactly where Echoes. ends but I see it ending somewhere poignant

 

Not wish listing or giving my opinion of how I’d do it.  Just answering a question from Scribe - that is no longer there after a Mod sweep out.  I also don’t know why Abnett can’t fit it all into one book and agree it should end at the Golden Throne, but we all know that GW/BL have their own agenda and roadmap and this will be used to prepare the way for wherever they plan to go next.

[Fire Golem]

I still struggle to see how Abnett needs to break up the ending into 2 books. Especially considering the size of these things....just why?

The idea annoys me on a more fundamental level of the fact the series was sold as an 8 book series, and it’s already been stressful and expensive enough trying to get the limited editions. 

[alfred_the_great]

The lore about two people talking about the founding of the inquisition is from a text break out box in the Inquisition rule book.

 

I’ll see later on if I can find the exact quote etc

[nagashnee]

The lore about two people talking about the founding of the inquisition is from a text break out box in the Inquisition rule book.

 

I’ll see later on if I can find the exact quote etc

Yeah the Inquisition game rule book, the 4 founding members argue over the course to take regarding the Emperor and split. Was solid stuff.

[Moonreaper666]

 

 

The lore about two people talking about the founding of the inquisition is from a text break out box in the Inquisition rule book.

 

I’ll see later on if I can find the exact quote etc

Yeah the Inquisition game rule book, the 4 founding members argue over the course to take regarding the Emperor and split. Was solid stuff.

Who are the Four again?

 

I know Kyril Sindermann and Moriana are two. Maybe a Sister of Silence is the third.

 

EDIT: Those Hive Cities should be all ruined and almost all the inhabitants dead

Edited May 17, 2022 by Moonreaper666