Thunder Warriors, Proto Astartes or not.

[DutyBeforeAll]

I’ve been thinking.

 

People say that the Thunder Warriors were proto Astartes, that they were the the precursors of the Space Marine Legions.

 

I think that that’s not true.

I now believe that they were less the first step to the Astartes and more like they were Khyber Pass versions of the Custodes.

 

They lacked the Geneseed and extra organs of the space marines, by all accounts they were simply enhanced humans with greatly increased Size, Speed, and Strength, and seemed to have an in built resistance to the Warp.

 

They were unstable, most likely the result of such drastic genetic modifications on already adult men. Not to mention that they lacked the near literal army of gene crafters each individual Custodus has.

 

The first were the Custodus, and when greater numbers were required, the Thunder Warriors were created with similar but VASTLY inferior techniques.

While they were useful in conquering Terra it was already obvious that they were a temporary solution.

 

Come the Primarchs, each one a perfect warrior and also a perfect genetic template for a new type of enhanced soldier, and even then there where problems with the first Astartes.

Thousand Sons, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, all had defects early on. Other Legions where less effected but still had some minor problems.

Though most of the issues were solved when their respective Primarch were found and could be used to stabilize the geneseed.

 

 

I believe it all fits, the size and power, power enough to take on an Astartes in 1 on 3 combat and Win, the resistance to warp powers.

The biggest failure of the Thunder Warriors was no fault of their own. They were simply the result of copying something incredible without the time, resources, and skill required for it to actually work.

[Noserenda]

Oh yeah Thunder Warriors are definitely knock off Custodes, mass produced quick rather than hand crafted and inherantly flawed because of it.

Space Marines weren't ever the plan A as generally understood though, more a plan B after the Primarchs disappeared. I suspect the Primarch project was ongoing through most of the Unification wars to some extent, the Big E collecting tech, samples and personnel from amongst defeated enemies and newly accessible areas as he went.

I suspect Primarchs leading Thunder Warriors (Albeit somewhat finessed ones) was probably plan A but once the recovery project was churning out the superior Astartes he didnt need them anymore so ***slit throat motion*** 

[Beren]

I don't really see any reason they can't be both.

[TheTrans]

They were proto-astartes in the sense that they (after the Valdor Novel) were pre-cursors to Astartes Legions (20 Legions, 20 Primarchs etc) or at very least the template for those that followed.

 

But seems like only from a logistical/organisation stand point, physically they were just adult bros (I wonder if chicks could have been, not starting the whole female marine crap here, but if its just like massive muscle grafts, drugs to 'enbiggen' you etc..but I digress) souped up to help fight the horrors of old night. 

Seems most of the information on them was sort of by the time the big E could have fixed them, it was just easier to keep churning out the Astartes Project as more stable, more indoctrinated warrior-caste suited to maintaining an empire. 

 

The Betrayal of Mount Ararat was meant to be a nice, clean house, put a bow on it that didn't quite work out. Apparently toward the end of Unification the Thunder Legions where becoming armies in their own right, with popular followings among the  citizenry etc and if they decided to turn on the Emperor, in an organised fashion, it would have been like the Beta Horus Heresy. Hence the 'throw them at the guns in an unwinnable situation...clean up any survivors, say it was pyrrhic victory cementing Unification at the cost of the Cataegis' sort of deal.

TL:DR 
Proto-Marines in a organisation/template structure, I say yes.
Proto-Marines in biological manner, I say no. 

[WARMASTER_]

It’s an interesting point you make, although I believe they’re proto Astartes and not Custodes In the way that the Custodes were never meant to be primarily front line troops they were always meant to primarily be the Emperor’s bodyguard

 

Astartes are an evolution on the thunder warrior “formula” both were gene bulked hyper aggressive warriors that were meant to be front line shock troops, both were the tool in which the Emperor would conquer terra and then the galaxy. the only difference is the thunder warriors were a stop gap, something that could be made with the resources at hand and clearly never meant to be a final solution to the “perfect solider” it’s not until we fast forward to the end of the Unification of terra that the Emperor has most of the resources to actually make Astartes proper [and really the taking of Luna and the unification with Mars really finalises the project]

[Closet Skeleton]

Astartes weren't supposed to be the final solution to the Imperium's military requirements either. The Imperium itself was basically a con, tricking all the anti-psyker anti-mutant nutjobs to protect humanity against chaos long enough for a viable psychic evolution of humanity to replace them.

 

Primaris marines are a recent retcon but the idea that marines were always meant to be modular and upgradable makes senes.

[MARK0SIAN]

I think the Thunder Warriors were definitely proto astartes in terms of their role and function. In Valdor he even mentions that the IV Legion of Thunder Warriors was designed to be experts in siege craft, very much like the Astartes. They even called their generals Primarchs.

 

They were a far cry from Astartes in terms of genetic modification but I think that is definitely more to do with limited resources/knowledge/tech than by design.

[Noserenda]

As i mentioned above, i think that redundancy was because the Primarchs were originally meant to lead them, and the Emperor knew what he intended with them going forward. 

[m0nolith]

In Valdor it’s explained that the Astartes were a project that was created in tandem with the Primarchs, and were meant to function with them from the get go.

 

That’s one of the reasons why Amar Astarte wanted to destroy the genetic lore of the Primarchs. She believed the Primarchs would be a necessary genetic anchor to their respective Legions and would be a disaster quote them, and she she believed the project doomed after the scattering of the Primarchs.

 

The only exception that we know of this was Leetu, a proto Astartes who was created before the Primarchs.

Edited March 23, 2022 by m0nolith

[WARMASTER_]

The only exception that we know of this was Leetu, a proto Astartes who was created before the Primarchs.

It’s off topic but Leetu is my favourite on the nose reference Dan Abnett has ever put into a book

[Lord_Ikka]

Definitely proto-Astartes in function, organization, and equipment- mk I power armor is the basis of all Astartes mass-produced power armor, as is the early bolter prototypes the Thunder Warriors were equipped with. As far as the gene-modification, they are a step on the path to Astartes; turning the custom gene-editing of the Custodes into a version that can be mass-produced, but it was inherently unstable and eventually correcting/bettering those mistakes lead to the Astartes process.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I would classify the thunder warriors as Proto Astartes. The way they were made was different, but the function both were designed to fulfill is the same. Thunder warriors just weren't stable enough. So, the Emperor used them while trying to design a plan B because his crusades were a race against time. Marines were good enough to get the job done, so he didn't keep going. If marines hadn't been, he would have tried something else.

[Orange Knight]

In terms of physical attributes, creation, genetic make up and combat style? Absolutely not.

 

In terms of organisational doctrine? Absolutely yes.