Are GW terrain kits a let down?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

One thing I think I dislike about the modern stuff is

1. It’s all essentially the same

2. Kills my own creativeness for making terrain. All GW products just show destroyed cities. No more cool wilderness boards featured, no more remote outposts, etc.

 

To me the modern kits are basically just re-skins of each other. Just ruins with different details on them and then a smattering of different scatter terrain to fill in in between the ruins.

That’s two things (in a numbered list even!):

1. All the card terrain that GW released was pretty similar too (as was the old Cityfight terrain) - you basically got some variation on what the walls and floors looked like. The Necromunda/GW Industrial Battlezone was even the same color as the Imperial Firebase. From what I can remember, all of the cardstock terrain even used the same plastic bulkheads to make it, so all of those were basically the same - maybe some different colors.

2. Why do you let GW products kill your own creativity? If you want wilderness stuff, make it! It would probably be awesome! You shouldn’t let GW’s depictions and use of their own stuff guide your vision of the war torn far future… there’s definitely folks still doing the DIY terrain builds for some wilderness combat, check them out online!

 

They aren’t really “reskins” of each other, at least not in the video game sense - they don’t share basic models, just with different texture maps laid over them - there are similar components, but the Sector Mechanicus stuff isn’t built like the Sector Imperialis stuff, which isn’t built like the Sector Fronteris stuff, which isn’t built like the Sector Manufactorum stuff. There’s similarities because it’s all Imperial design stuff, so of course it shares some similarities (the supports for the Mechanicus stuff looks like the beam supports for Fronteris, the Manufactorum stuff is a thinner half wall support, but shares a half hexagonal shape to the Imperialis full hexagonal wall support stuff, etc.), except for the Sanctum Administratum, which uses the full hexagon walls of the Ruined Manufactorum, which did have a reskin quality from the Sector Imperialis (walls with hexagonal supports, but different details) - but it’s no more similar than the older Cityfight terrain was. Even the Necromunda stuff is similar to the other Imperium based stuff, but not a “reskin” of any of it.

 

Even the Ork terrain shares some visual similarity because it looks like a lot of it is actually taken from Imperial terrain components!

 

”Ruins” as a concept is a pretty wide net to cast and not expect it to grab the majority of what GW makes, but I will give you that they are all ruins, yes. It’s not wrong to want GW to produce some non-Imperium based stuff at all, I know I would really like to see it - however, in a game about war, most of that is probably also likely to be some amount of ruins.

 

The Tau stuff isn’t ruins (combat emplacements, but without much visual damage on them) though - it could use some expansion however.

Not talking just about kits they released back then, but just the terrain they featured in general like the imperial outpost, gun emplacement, and other pieces(which they even gave guides on how to make)

 

And as for killing my creativity, it’s hard to find inspiration for terrain, because all GW shows you is this one style, and a lot of people designing their ‘own’ stuff is basically the same thing.

 

To me the modern designs and aesthetic have little to no character compared to the aesthetic of the old stuff.

Edited March 25, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Bryan Blaire]

Not talking just about kits they released back then, but just the terrain they featured in general like the imperial outpost, gun emplacement, and other pieces(which they even gave guides on how to make)

And as for killing my creativity, it’s hard to find inspiration for terrain, because all GW shows you is this one style, and a lot of people designing their ‘own’ stuff is basically the same thing.

 

To me the modern designs and aesthetic have little to no character compared to the aesthetic of the old stuff.

 

Honestly man, it sounds a lot like you are saying “Old, hand made stuff is better” with zero objective characteristics that can be discussed.

 

If that’s how you feel, that’s just fine, but it’s pretty hard to have a good comparison to the manufactured products with that being your criteria - of course manufactured stuff is going to look “the same” - that’s what it’s supposed to do.  You still have all the standard modeling methods to make manufactured terrain your own.  You can also still use the old guides to make your own custom terrain.

 

You have yet to make a compelling argument to me that the old materials GW manufactured are better than the current terrain that GW puts out.  The hand-made stuff they featured in old White Dwarfs and books hands down are not as interesting or visually as good/world building as the modern terrain they manufacture - yes, that’s a personal call.  The kits are by no means a “let down” over the old hand-made stuff like the styrofoam and toothpick alien spike cactus, nor have you presented any reasons why they are other than your “they don’t have character.”  The biggest drawback of the new terrain is simply “they don’t make enough variety.”

 

Hand-made stuff will always be more “unique” by virtue of how it’s made (that uniqueness doesn’t make it better - you can have unique junk too).  You are really barking up the wrong tree if you want a company that manufactures something to provide you with inspiration to hand make materials to what they provide - they don’t have any monetary interest in doing so, they are trying to sell you their product and their specific vision of the grim dark far future.

 

I will give you this though - the old terrain was a great second use of materials, typically things that were going to be thrown in a landfill. You could look at it as GW being very forward thinking in the Reduce-Reuse-Recycle sense - unfortunately, once it was turned into terrain, that was probably as far as it was going to be recycled, and it would have to go into the landfill after that.  The new stuff is immediately worse in that regard though - there’s zero recycling in the styrene manufacturing they do right now (other than maybe anything they salvage from unsold stuff, if they can actually do that).

 

There’s thousands of places (probably many, many more than that) to get inspiration on-line and out in the real world for terrain ideas and for generating your own vision of the war torn far future…

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I think it's hard to compare the old vs new terrain from an aesthetic standpoint. They didn't have competition with the older kits so it's easy to look back at it with rose tinted glasses. On the other hand, the third-party competition for terrain now is pretty crazy. That's going to influence what you prefer.

 

 

I personally think the ruins are too busy.

I get that the imperium is known for being fancy and grandiose, but not every building in a hive is or needs to be like that.

I think they do need to be busy with how much they charge for them. I mean if you buy terrain at full sticker price from GW, it's probably going to cost you more than a 2000-point army would, to fill a 60 by 44-inch table. If you go with bundles, killzones and/or look for best value (multiples of the same kit) you can do it cheaper but it's still pretty crazy how expensive they are. They can't do simple terrain at those price points it has to be fancy. The worst part is that I think it hurts customer retention for them. Say two friends start and one of them likes tau, is his/her buddy going to want to keep investing or will they be turned off of the game because of the blood bath on planet bowling ball? Cheap functional terrain could really alleviate that.

they can likely sell it for cheaper and still make just as much profit…

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

Not talking just about kits they released back then, but just the terrain they featured in general like the imperial outpost, gun emplacement, and other pieces(which they even gave guides on how to make)

And as for killing my creativity, it’s hard to find inspiration for terrain, because all GW shows you is this one style, and a lot of people designing their ‘own’ stuff is basically the same thing.

 

To me the modern designs and aesthetic have little to no character compared to the aesthetic of the old stuff.

 

Honestly man, it sounds a lot like you are saying “Old, hand made stuff is better” with zero objective characteristics that can be discussed.

 

If that’s how you feel, that’s just fine, but it’s pretty hard to have a good comparison to the manufactured products with that being your criteria - of course manufactured stuff is going to look “the same” - that’s what it’s supposed to do. You still have all the standard modeling methods to make manufactured terrain your own. You can also still use the old guides to make your own custom terrain.

 

You have yet to make a compelling argument to me that the old materials GW manufactured are better than the current terrain that GW puts out. The hand-made stuff they featured in old White Dwarfs and books hands down are not as interesting or visually as good/world building as the modern terrain they manufacture - yes, that’s a personal call. The kits are by no means a “let down” over the old hand-made stuff like the styrofoam and toothpick alien spike cactus, nor have you presented any reasons why they are other than your “they don’t have character.” The biggest drawback of the new terrain is simply “they don’t make enough variety.”

 

Hand-made stuff will always be more “unique” by virtue of how it’s made (that uniqueness doesn’t make it better - you can have unique junk too). You are really barking up the wrong tree if you want a company that manufactures something to provide you with inspiration to hand make materials to what they provide - they don’t have any monetary interest in doing so, they are trying to sell you their product and their specific vision of the grim dark far future.

 

I will give you this though - the old terrain was a great second use of materials, typically things that were going to be thrown in a landfill. You could look at it as GW being very forward thinking in the Reduce-Reuse-Recycle sense - unfortunately, once it was turned into terrain, that was probably as far as it was going to be recycled, and it would have to go into the landfill after that. The new stuff is immediately worse in that regard though - there’s zero recycling in the styrene manufacturing they do right now (other than maybe anything they salvage from unsold stuff, if they can actually do that).

 

There’s thousands of places (probably many, many more than that) to get inspiration on-line and out in the real world for terrain ideas and for generating your own vision of the war torn far future…

Where are you getting the idea that I’m trying to make an argument?

I’m just asking how other people feel and explaining how I feel.

And again it’s not about handmade vs mass produced, the firebase was mass produced but was still good looking.

Edited March 26, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Noserenda]

Yeah if your only definition is handmade = better, congratulations you live in a golden age of hobby tutorials, try looking around and the problem is more having enough time to read or watch them all. GW even does a few but their focus is typically on selling the products they produce, obviously.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Yeah if your only definition is handmade = better, congratulations you live in a golden age of hobby tutorials, try looking around and the problem is more having enough time to read or watch them all. GW even does a few but their focus is typically on selling the products they produce, obviously.

literally never said handmade was better.

Not even remotely said that.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

One more thing.

Are the current kits really that modular?

Things you can make with them

Line

Box

Bigger box

Even bigger box

Tall box

Taller box

Even taller box

Box with ‘broken’ corner

Box with 2 ‘broken’ corners

Box with 3 or more broken corners.

 

In the end the kits just make boxes which might be why I find them to be so boring and lame.

[Bryan Blaire]

You can make angled bits with the Sector Imperialis and Ruined Manufactorum walls if you want (or use the Battle Sanctum triangular pieces) - you can use the Sector Mechanicus angled walkways or convert a lot of other things instead of just making them out of the box - which makes it much like scratch building terrain, but with a starting point.  There are even examples of people kitbashing/converting the new terrain for inspiration online!

 

The Sector Mechanicus stuff doesn’t have walls at all, so it would be pretty hard to make boxes.

 

You can utilize Necromunda terrain to make interesting interiors.

 

You can mix and match practically all of the newer terrain, since it was designed that way (Necromunda was even made half the height of a single story of the Sector stuff so that you could use it to link up things, like adding an elevator to the side of a Mechanicus structure).

 

The bits from the Battlezone Manufactorum and the Ork terrain is much less modular (walls are made to fit one way), so you would have to do a lot more modifying to make non-right angles, but that doesn’t mean it can’t be done (and the Ork stuff could be done uuuuuuuggggggly and the “it’s Orks” would probably still cover it).

 

In the end, if you can only imagine boxes for the materials, then of course that would be lame.

[Lexington]

I have a lot of fondness for many of the GW terrain kits. They’re great. The newer versions are incredibly impressive in design and modularity, and you can tell the designers put a ton of thought into how they can fit together in many ways, and even across different ranges.

 

That said, their introduction has definitely made model photography in 40K books and battle reports less interesting than it used to be. I think back on the cinematic boards that were shown off in the 3rd Ed rulebook, or the classic crashed spaceship made out of junk and old Star Wars toy and feel a little sad that we don’t really see stuff like that anymore. Sure, I get it, GW invests a lot in these terrain products and wants to identify their products as the 40K terrain. It does mean a certain age of impressive DIY is gone, tho, at least as far as GW and their books are concerned, and there’s something a little sad about that.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I have a lot of fondness for many of the GW terrain kits. They’re great. The newer versions are incredibly impressive in design and modularity, and you can tell the designers put a ton of thought into how they can fit together in many ways, and even across different ranges.

 

That said, their introduction has definitely made model photography in 40K books and battle reports less interesting than it used to be. I think back on the cinematic boards that were shown off in the 3rd Ed rulebook, or the classic crashed spaceship made out of junk and old Star Wars toy and feel a little sad that we don’t really see stuff like that anymore. Sure, I get it, GW invests a lot in these terrain products and wants to identify their products as the 40K terrain. It does mean a certain age of impressive DIY is gone, tho, at least as far as GW and their books are concerned, and there’s something a little sad about that.

i wonder if there’s any way they can actually monetize conversions.

Maybe start selling digital or hardcover design instructions.

Or just start producing products for making terrain?

 

Just the modern kits all seem so bland and bleh.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I wonder how long people will actually pay for GW terrain.

 

200 pieces for $150

https://www.manticgames.com/games/terrain-crate/sci-fi-terrain-crate/battlezones-sci-fi-terrain-crate/military-compound/

 

Or

134 for $125

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Adepta-Sororitas-Battle-Sanctum-2020

 

Even if you think their modern kits are better than their old stuff, no denying the modern kits aren’t really worth the cost.

[Cleon]

I think those two are an interesting comparison. The mantic stuff is better table filler, but that's all it is, there cheap and cheerful for 'treated roughly' club volume or when starting, it's not something I'd aspire to having on my own table. The sanctum on the other hand is a piece that once purchased and painted would be used preferentially as a centerpiece or objective area.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I think those two are an interesting comparison. The mantic stuff is better table filler, but that's all it is, there cheap and cheerful for 'treated roughly' club volume or when starting, it's not something I'd aspire to having on my own table. The sanctum on the other hand is a piece that once purchased and painted would be used preferentially as a centerpiece or objective area.

I have no first hand experience with the mantic lines but it doesn’t look any less high quality than GW, and I definitely not believe 26% lower quality.

Edited March 27, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Wulf Vengis]

I like most of the modern terrain kits (even if i don't like the modern process). However, I'm also a big fan of the older "here's how to build your own terrain" tips and even just the photos of scratch built stuff to glean inspiration from.

[Cpt_Reaper]

The thing that annoys me is that, from an Imperial perspective, nearly all terrain available right now is Sector Mechanicus. I want Sector Imperialis to come back because it matches my ye olde Cities of Death ruins.

 

I also echo we need more Xenos terrain, specifically Eldar, T'au and Necron terrain. Kromlech's terrain has knocked it out of the park.

[Slave to Darkness]

I think those two are an interesting comparison. The mantic stuff is better table filler, but that's all it is, there cheap and cheerful for 'treated roughly' club volume or when starting, it's not something I'd aspire to having on my own table. The sanctum on the other hand is a piece that once purchased and painted would be used preferentially as a centerpiece or objective area.

Mantic stuff is :cuss, even worse than the samey looking GW buildings. You sneeze at it and the pegs holding it together breaks, even with glue. 

 

 

[Lexington]

i wonder if there’s any way they can actually monetize conversions.

Maybe start selling digital or hardcover design instructions.

Or just start producing products for making terrain?

They probably could do these things, but it seems doubtful that they would or will. The company is all about premium products these days, and keeping customers inside of the GW “walled garden” where they can, in theory, purchase exactly what’s on the box. From a business perspective, I get it.

 

Just the modern kits all seem so bland and bleh.

I wouldn’t say that, really. They’re nice, interesting and detailed kits. What they tend to do, tho, is make a lot of 40K tables feel very repetitive. Anything that’s mass produced is going to lose the magic of bespoke DIY creations.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

i wonder if there’s any way they can actually monetize conversions.

Maybe start selling digital or hardcover design instructions.

Or just start producing products for making terrain?

They probably could do these things, but it seems doubtful that they would or will. The company is all about premium products these days, and keeping customers inside of the GW “walled garden” where they can, in theory, purchase exactly what’s on the box. From a business perspective, I get it.

 

Just the modern kits all seem so bland and bleh.

I wouldn’t say that, really. They’re nice, interesting and detailed kits. What they tend to do, tho, is make a lot of 40K tables feel very repetitive. Anything that’s mass produced is going to lose the magic of bespoke DIY creations.

one of the things they could do is start getting into the 3D printer racket, with filament and resin at the very least. Sell STL files etc.

 

They’re detailed sure, but there’s so much detail it all just blends together and none of it stands out.

[Rik Lightstar]

I've got one of the Mantic "Big Boxes" and as Slave To Darkness said, it's fine as table filler but that's about it and because of the way you need to assemble any kind of building with a sensible footprint or reasonable height it doesn't cover as much of the table as you might expect. It also very much only builds "variations of boxes".

 

Personally I really like the Infinity terrain as it blocks LoS well and has usable rooftops.

 

Rik

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Gotta admit that mantic terrain is actually an agrument for GWs terrain in my experience. It's definitely more than 26% percent worse. They do have some good products their zombies & skellies are nice but I can't recommend their terrain. That said there are a lot of good third party sites. I mostly buy terrain for different systems but have had a lot of success on sites like etsy.

[Slave to Darkness]

I've got one of the Mantic "Big Boxes" and as Slave To Darkness said, it's fine as table filler but that's about it and because of the way you need to assemble any kind of building with a sensible footprint or reasonable height it doesn't cover as much of the table as you might expect. It also very much only builds "variations of boxes".

 

Personally I really like the Infinity terrain as it blocks LoS well and has usable rooftops.

 

Rik

Never looked at the Infinity stuff, gonna look into that now. To the interwebs!!!!

[Mr Farson]

I backed the original kickstarter for mantic terrain back in the day as it was a much cheaper alternative to gw terrain. It was about £25 for a box that would fill a 2×2 square. It was terrible quality for price then and even more so now. After receiving my pledge which was about £200 I promptly sold it and bought gw ruins instead

[Halandaar]

I wonder how long people will actually pay for GW terrain.

 

200 pieces for $150

https://www.manticgames.com/games/terrain-crate/sci-fi-terrain-crate/battlezones-sci-fi-terrain-crate/military-compound/

 

Or

134 for $125

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Adepta-Sororitas-Battle-Sanctum-2020

 

Even if you think their modern kits are better than their old stuff, no denying the modern kits aren’t really worth the cost.

 

 

 

The Mantic set has 49% more components. Great. But based on the best UK prices, it's also 41% more expensive than the Sanctum, so you're really showing me a "value" offering of less than 10% versus the GW product. It's hardly a compelling argument that GW kits "aren't really worth the cost" when the price difference between them and the thing you're offering as a superior deal is actually so little. Especially when the Mantic terrain looks like absolute hot garbage by comparison (obviously, this is my opinion and not a fact, but there's no way such a modest saving would convince me to buy this rather than GW terrain)

 

Another thing here is that most of my GW terrain comes from discounted sources like the Conquest or Imperium magazine or bundled in game launch boxes, and because these sources appear so frequently it's actually really easy to get the price paid per component even lower than the terrible Mantic kits you're using as a benchmark.

[phoenix01]

I think the terrain from GW is just fine. It's what you make of it, like anything else.

[Antarius]

One more thing.

Are the current kits really that modular?

Things you can make with them

Line

Box

Bigger box

Even bigger box

Tall box

Taller box

Even taller box

Box with ‘broken’ corner

Box with 2 ‘broken’ corners

Box with 3 or more broken corners.

 

In the end the kits just make boxes which might be why I find them to be so boring and lame.

They absolutely make stuff that's not just "boxes", you just have to fiddle around with it a bit to get your ideas flowing. They are super modular and if you're willing to do a little bit of - if you'll pardon the pun - thinking outside the box, you can make lots and lots of shapes.

 

As for creating your own terrain, I think that is absolutely the way to go and I would echo the sentiment that there's lots of awesome sources of inspiration out there.

 

One thing I personally like to do is intersperse my own "random junk builds" with bits of GW terrain, which make the GW pieces and my own pieces "gel" better with each other, as well as make unique terrain and make the GW kits last longer.

 

I'll see if I can dig up some of the Necromunda terrain that I made with a friend, to illustrate both the "not just boxes" and "combining your own stuff with GW stuff" points.

Edited March 28, 2022 by Antarius