The odd case of the Leman Russ in 9.Ed

[domsto]

Hello fellow Guardsmen and Woman

 

I've just gotten home from my annual Apocalypse Game. i was playing a reasonable 40 Leman Russ Tanks. And i have to say the Standard Leman Russ Tank sucks.

But the odd thing is that on paper the LR is better than it was in 8.Ed.

It got a +2 Save(which it should have had since the start of 8.Ed but Ok)

and it is even cheaper as it where in 8.Ed. Costing in its stock loadout 150p instead of 152p it was in 8.Ed. Yes that doesn't sound like much, but you have to keep in mind that Vehicles across the game got a hefty price hike.

And it's ability to shoot in CC even if the new Vehicle Rules are a bad joke are better than the nothing it had in 8.Ed

In 8.Ed i won tournaments with Lists bringing Standard LRs

In 9.Ed i wouldn't bring a standard LR even if you force me to.

 

So why does it still feel worse as it did in 8.Ed?

My thoughts are as follows:

1. One big Point i noticed was that Guard in general now has less CP as it did in 8.Ed so the few good Stratagems for the LR are only used once or twice.

2. The lose of the Specialist Detachment from Vigilus seems to me a big factor.

3. Even with it's T8 +2 save 12 Wounds the survivability is super low as 9.Ed is absurdly deadly

4. The Sponson weapons got noticeable more expensive. So the Tank can get pretty expensive when you want some extra BOOM

 

So the question of how to fix it remains. 

I'm afraid there is no easy answer at this Point. What most likely will happen is that the Main guns will get the same types of Buffs every other Faction got, making it super deadly. But that makes the Situation even worse.

Making it even cheaper could work, but as the latest points reduction didn't help so...

Only thing i see is to buff it's statline or give it better synergies.

But giving it a better Statline will destroy the overall Balance across the other Factions.

Giving it T9 for example offsets the Land Raider, so i too would need to be T9 and if the Land Raider gets T9 so needs to be the Knight

Giving it more wounds or a special Rule that it doesn't degrade so fast would be the only Option it really has. 

[Karhedron]

Good questions but they apply to a great many vehicles in this edition. To be viable in 9th ed, vehicles seem to need at least one of the following (2 or more for preference):

1. An invulnerable save
2. Damage reduction rule
3. Cheap enough to spam
4. Brings some sort of capability or synergy that enhances the rest of the army

Dreadnoughts seem to have 1 by default. Ork buggies have 2 and 3. DE skimmers have 1 and 3. Most MBTs seem to struggle in 9th edition.

[WarriorFish]

I've been pondering this, and I think it's much as Kar says - the issue is at its root one of vehicles as a whole the more viable ones tend to have some sort of "work around". What makes this more of an issue here is how much Guard rely on vehicles to provide the heavy hitting power needed as infantry can't muster the bigger guns and don't last long enough to make them count

 

There's a fair few high AP and Damage weapons around, and people will usually load up on them; that reduces one of the main roles of the Leman Russ in providing a durable anchor to a Guard list. I think this is why we see a lot more focus on artillery for Guard these days - same sort of fire power, but you're not putting points into durability that might not matter. That and being able to hide away from LoS is better protection too, if you can find the terrain.

 

I'm not sure what sort of solution could work, but I hope there is one as there's few models as iconic as the Leman Russ. It is dark days should they gather dust on shelves

[Diagramdude]

It’s not only that they are relatively fragile against 9th Ed shooting. Relying on tanks for firepower leaves you extremely vulnerable to melee threats that close distance quickly via deep strike or fast movement and shut you down just by touching your tanks. Depending on how tight your deployment zone is and how many tanks you have, you could have multiple tanks turned off by a single unit making the charge. Defensive Gunners overwatch is limited by the Grinding Advance not doubling your shots in overwatch.

 

And you’re generally limiting your tanks to move 0-5” in your movement phases, so once you’ve deployed your opponent can plan to assault that general area and your tanks will still be there, unlike other armies which could rapidly spread out their fire base and simply move away from the melee threats while maintaining maximum fire.

 

At a bare minimum, smoke launchers needs to become a reactive stratagem like marines have. Maybe we should retain the option of popping smoke in our own turn, but we need the stratagem for when we go second. Psychic Barrier becoming an aura extending from either the psyker or cast target would be a huge help as well. Maybe adding the lambdan lion refractor field to regular guard relics too.

 

Also BS4+ is crippling because our volume of fire isn’t all that high considering we don’t have reroll all hits outside a Chaos matchup. Our BS4+ is usually going to get penalized to a 5+, then even with a generous 9 shots on a 2d6 roll that’s 3 hits, then onto wounds and saves… I get that thematically that base guard ballistic skill needs to be worse than marines, but maybe some access to “ignore hit modifiers” or some implementation of a tracer fire mechanic like how Cadia’s overlapping fields of fire work would help a lot.

 

And specifically for the Russ, letting it continue to fire its turret at other targets even if there is an enemy in engagement range like how the baneblade currently can would help a ton.

Edited March 28, 2022 by Diagramdude

[WarriorFish]

When we put it like this it starts looking like getting some deadly fire power of its own is the most likely - and perhaps only - recourse? The bonanza of damage output horse has long bolted so perhaps this is the only practical way of getting some semblance of balance? It's a poor man's balance (especially with GW at the helm), but it's better than nothing.

[domsto]

Maybe a special Rule for the Leman Russ and all "heavy Tanks" that they can't be locked in CC could help.

Similar to the Rule the Super heavies have.

 

But i think the main tone of it beeing a bigger Problem in the Corerules of 9.Ed seems to be correct. I can't remember the last time my Space Marine friend played any Vehical in 9.Ed

Guard as mentioned relies heavy on Vehicals and doesn't have much to replace them with in the Codex.

[War of the Eagle]

Maybe a Strat so they can fall back and shoot or fire their main weapon out of melee. I use gladiator Reapers ocasionaly because of the strat to let me fall back and shoot. Edited March 30, 2022 by War of the Eagle

[jarms48]

I've said this in other topics, but I feel it's the most appropriate here. In terms of purely points this is what the Leman Russ is worth.

 

 

 

You can do the same thing for Guard and vehicles based on the Chimera platform. The Russ is harder, but I've done math posts on it in other topics. The Russ compared to an Onager Dunecrawler would be around:

 

- Vanquisher: 110 points. 

- Eradicator: 115 points.

- Exterminator: 115 points. 

- Executioner: 120 points.

- Battle Tank: 125 points.

- Demolisher: 130 points.

- Punisher: 130 points. 

 

This is including the hull heavy bolter. It's actually quite sad how overvalued the Russ is right now. Especially when the Onager Dunecrawler isn't even considered a meta vehicle. 

 

As for sponson upgrades. It should be:

+20 points for 2 heavy bolters or heavy flamers.

+30 points for 2 plasma cannons.

+40 points for 2 multi-meltas. 

 

I see no reason for GW to charge higher prices for heavy weapons on vehicles and infantry. They should be the same. The ability to ignore heavy modifiers while moving and the ability to shoot into combat should be factored into the datasheet. Not every individual weapon. 

 

As for Tank Commanders, I'd just make them a flat cost + whichever variant you choose. Such as 50 points + cost of Leman Russ. Though I'd also give Tank Commanders 2 orders and an 18" order range, minimum. To make them actually viable at buffing other vehicles than themselves. Which means using my suggestions above would make a Vanquisher Tank Commander 160 points and a Demolisher Tank Commander 180 points. This is assuming the current datasheets and no changes.  

 

Edited March 31, 2022 by jarms48

[Karhedron]

Defensive Gunners overwatch is limited by the Grinding Advance not doubling your shots in overwatch.

I suspect Grinding Advance is going away. If you look at the Eldar Fire Prism, it's focussed shot has gone from Heavy 1 to Heavy 2 and the equivalent rule has disappeared. The higher ROF now looks to be built in to MBTs.

[Diagramdude]

even if the Russ and guard in general finally get a significant boost from a new codex, honestly it’s going to be at the absolute sunset of 9th. 9th released in July 2020… 8th edition lasted around 2 years.

[Karhedron]

8th edition lasted 3 years, 2017 - 2020. GW have apparently settled on a pattern of updating 40K and AOS every 3 years with the "off year" being used to release a separate major game (probably HH this year).

[domsto]

even if the Russ and guard in general finally get a significant boost from a new codex, honestly it’s going to be at the absolute sunset of 9th. 9th released in July 2020… 8th edition lasted around 2 years.

I am afraid this will be the case.

9.Ed nears its End

 

I also heard rumors(given from a highly noncredible source) that Guard and Chaosdeamons won't actually get a 9.Ed Codex, rather beeing one of the firsts in 10.Ed

[sairence]

Keep in mind that we've had a 2-year pandemic in this cycle, that will have thrown most pre-set schedules in the bin. That is if a 3-year cycle was the plan in the first place.

[jarms48]

I also heard rumors(given from a highly noncredible source) that Guard and Chaosdeamons won't actually get a 9.Ed Codex, rather beeing one of the firsts in 10.Ed

I doubt this. After Nids “officially” release in the next few weeks it’s Imperial and Chaos Knights. Then all that’s left is:

- CSM

- WE

- Imperial Guard

- Daemons

- “New faction”

- SM 2.0

 

Not necessarily in that order. Nids should be out by early-mid April. Knights both dropping around May. That leaves 6 factions left to drop between June and December. Even if each of those dropped once a month we’d be done by November. If 4/6 were released as double billing’s we’d be done by September.

 

Rumours have it 10th is due to drop sometime 2023. Possibly sometime around June or July if we go by prior releases. So we should get our codex well before then.

Edited March 31, 2022 by jarms48

[The Pounder]

Personally I’m hoping that 10th isn’t too far off. Bookkeeping is becoming problematic.

 

As for Russes, I think we definitely need a rule to be able to shoot our blast weapons in combat or have a means to fallback and still shoot,

 

I like the idea of Toughness 9 on our Russes and Superheavies.

[Diagramdude]

I could see T9 on a baneblade but with land raiders, knights and mortarion at T8 I don’t see the Russ getting T9

[War of the Eagle]

I could see a damage reduction skill but I doubt they'ed ever get T9. Or maybe an ignore ap-1&2.

 

I just want to be able to shoot into melee and kill my own guys again... Is that so much to ask.

[Diagramdude]

Letting Russes do mortal wounds on the charge, either as a base ability or tied to Crush Them! stratagem would be cool. There was a similar ability in the vigilus tank detachment.