Leagues of Votann Initial 1st April 2022 reveal, new lore & articles discussion

[TheVoidDragon]

23 minutes ago, SvenIronhand said:

The problem to me is that they want to release yet another power armor faction, with design language similar to other power armor factions. The problem is that doesn't hearken back to the original Squats very well at all. The backbone of the Squat army was their Brotherhood troops, the guys in the padded jackets and flak helmets. You also had Hearthguard, who incorporated a more "dwarfy" aesthetic with things like facemasks similar to Roman equites and medieval-looking helmets. In addition, there were the Engineers' Guild, who had the infamous biker duds. It was all a perfectly fine baseline for a faction, and design language whose niche hasn't really been filled by GW models. 

So, to see these frankly rather characterless "Squats" is disappointing.

I feel like the originals have more character, mostly down to the Gambeson. Grendlesen was a great update of the classic Squats that felt like a better Space Dwarf than the Leagues do.

I do like the DAoT aesthetic of the Leagues, there just needs to be more life and character to them than just that to make them good Space Dwarfs.

Edited July 5, 2022 by TheVoidDragon

[Mechanicus Tech-Support]

At work so cant find interview but didnt one of the old timers at GW mention one of the reasons squats got squated and didnt get a refresh sooner was that they didnt like the old space biker dwarf in leather aesthetic.

Now I could be very wrong, memories a tricky thing  I'll try and hunt the interview down when I get home 

[phandaal]

15 minutes ago, TheVoidDragon said:

I feel like the originals have more character, mostly down to the Gambeson. Grendlesen was a great update of the classic Squats that felt like a better Space Dwarf than the Leagues do.

I do like the DAoT aesthetic of the Leagues, there just needs to be more life and character to them than just that to make them good Space Dwarfs.

Third party bits may help a great deal there. Different heads, maybe some runic emblems for their armor. Stuff like that will make a big difference.

[TheVoidDragon]

17 minutes ago, phandaal said:

Third party bits may help a great deal there. Different heads, maybe some runic emblems for their armor. Stuff like that will make a big difference.

I'm sure they will, at the very least they need something Votann themed on them as it's meant to be part of their identity. An icon their backpack, even Grendlsen had that, it's not good when a character for a different game system has more of the Leagues theming then the actual army does.

I'm just disappointed as I love the artwork, the idea of Space Dwarf, and the Lore of the Leagues so far, but the actual direction for them has been something that just comes across a middling. They don't cater to anyone in particular with their style. Neither the people who for some reason think that an army based on the Dwarf archetype shouldn't be based on the Dwarf archetype aesthetics and want them to very obviously not be Dwarf themed Dwarfs, or the people who do very much like the Dwarf archetype and its aesthetic and want the new Space Dwarf army to be properly Dwarf themed Space Dwarfs. Instead they try to go for both sides and be both Dwarfs and Not Dwarfs at once, and because of that neither direction feels done properly.

Regardless of if someone likes the Mantic Forgefather miniatures or not, at the very least they actually had a noticeable direction and went with it.

Edited July 5, 2022 by TheVoidDragon

[MithrilForge]

I wonder... if we thought about leaving everything that came before... behind us and pretended we were looking at the Leagues as the first time we've seen a

"Space Dwarfs" themed army we wouldn't be so picky and sad/upset, just because something looked or was a certain way years ago does not mean it cannot change now...

I think people put too much stock in "their expectations" of what they want something to look like, i think i'm lucky that i can see this range and be "yeah, that's ok!"

I'm not investing my worries into something I have no impact in being able to change (except for conversions of course ) 

I understand people have feelings they wish to share and that's ok. But i think we as people sometimes carry waay too much baggage around with us and need to learn to chill with life... they are just little toy soldiers after all 

 

Mithril  

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 hours ago, SvenIronhand said:

The problem to me is that they want to release yet another power armor faction, with design language similar to other power armor factions. The problem is that doesn't hearken back to the original Squats very well at all. The backbone of the Squat army was their Brotherhood troops, the guys in the padded jackets and flak helmets. You also had Hearthguard, who incorporated a more "dwarfy" aesthetic with things like facemasks similar to Roman equites and medieval-looking helmets. In addition, there were the Engineers' Guild, who had the infamous biker duds. It was all a perfectly fine baseline for a faction, and design language whose niche hasn't really been filled by GW models. 



So, to see these frankly rather characterless "Squats" is disappointing.

And those squats were thought of as a bad joke and failed…

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 hours ago, Mechanicus Tech-Support said:

At work so cant find interview but didnt one of the old timers at GW mention one of the reasons squats got squated and didnt get a refresh sooner was that they didnt like the old space biker dwarf in leather aesthetic.

Now I could be very wrong, memories a tricky thing  I'll try and hunt the interview down when I get home 

Yes they said that they felt they turned the faction into a joke and made things too over the top and cartoony

[SvenIronhand]

3 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Yes they said that they felt they turned the faction into a joke and made things too over the top and cartoony

That was a never-confirmed anonymous forum post that purported to be Jervis Johnson. 

[TheVoidDragon]

6 minutes ago, mithrilforge said:

I wonder... if we thought about leaving everything that came before... behind us and pretended we were looking at the Leagues as the first time we've seen a

"Space Dwarfs" themed army we wouldn't be so picky and sad/upset, just because something looked or was a certain way years ago does not mean it cannot change now...

I think people put too much stock in "their expectations" of what they want something to look like, i think i'm lucky that i can see this range and be "yeah, that's ok!"

I'm not investing my worries into something I have no impact in being able to change (except for conversions of course ) 

I understand people have feelings they wish to share and that's ok. But i think we as people sometimes carry waay too much baggage around with us and need to learn to chill with life... they are just little toy soldiers after all 

 

Mithril  

This isn't about comparing them to what came before. It's the expectations for an army based on the Dwarf archetype and the way they're culture and identity is shown via the miniatures.

 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

24 minutes ago, mithrilforge said:

I wonder... if we thought about leaving everything that came before... behind us and pretended we were looking at the Leagues as the first time we've seen a

"Space Dwarfs" themed army we wouldn't be so picky and sad/upset, just because something looked or was a certain way years ago does not mean it cannot change now...

I think people put too much stock in "their expectations" of what they want something to look like, i think i'm lucky that i can see this range and be "yeah, that's ok!"

I'm not investing my worries into something I have no impact in being able to change (except for conversions of course ) 

I understand people have feelings they wish to share and that's ok. But i think we as people sometimes carry waay too much baggage around with us and need to learn to chill with life... they are just little toy soldiers after all 

 

Mithril  

I said something similar about the ‘primaris terminator’ rumor.

some people want exactly what we have now just bigger.

some people want something new but similar.

people just need to be prepared to be open minded to whatever comes from that if anything does come from it.

[MithrilForge]

1 hour ago, TheVoidDragon said:

This isn't about comparing them to what came before. It's the expectations for an army based on the Dwarf archetype and the way they're culture and identity is shown via the miniatures.

 

See that may be where the problem lies, Lets say GW is thinking we want to take these "Space Dwarves" in a new direction that we think is fresh and new and not like every other dwarf archetype?... (and one we can control the IP on better ) what then?!?... are we so fixed  and blinkered into a thought process of how"WE"  expect something to be that we straight away shun or condemn this new thing because it doesn't fit exactly how "WE" perceive it should be... 

I love dwarves, I've read GW's novels and i also read Markus Heitz's "The Dwarves" Saga and I personally liked his idea's for dwarves the best...it doesn't mean i shun GW's completely or complain to them that "hey your stuff should be like this guys cause I think it's better than yours" ... same for models 

Mithril 

Edited July 6, 2022 by mithrilforge

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

18 minutes ago, mithrilforge said:

See that may be where the problem lies, Lets say GW is thinking we want to take these "Space Dwarves" in a new direction that we think is fresh and new and not like every other dwarf archetype?... (and one we can control the IP on better ) what then?!?... are we so fixed  and blinkered into a thought process of how"WE"  expect something to be that we straight away shun or condemn this new thing because it doesn't fit exactly how "WE" perceive it should be... 

I love dwarves, I've read GW's novels and i also read Markus Heitz's "The Dwarves" Saga and I personally liked his idea's for dwarves the best...it doesn't mean i shun GW's completely or complain to them that "hey your stuff should be like this guys cause I think it's better than yours" ... same for models 

Mithril 

some people will just complain if things aren't how they think they should be.
some people will complain about new stuff until they get used to it.

i saw someone here mention kharadon overlords, and how they wanted something similar, and honestly i hate their infantry models. (the flying boats are cool though)

[ThePenitentOne]

From my perspective, the trait that I most associate with dwarven-ness is "Craftsmanship".

In D&D, Dwarves are who I buy my gear from, because they make the best gear.

I think the Leagues do look like craftsmen; their armour looks well put together and durable. The "Cleanness" that many feel is un-Grimdark IS the craftsmanship that I see when I look at the Votann. Beauty, of course, is in the eye of the beholder. What I can say is that what I've seen does leave me wanting to see more.

There's also some potential for variation based on sprue composition, and how many options each kit provides. Are the super bulky shoulder pads that some don't like designed in such a way that the model looks okay without them? We don't know. Are there enough head in each box to build totally helmeted? How about totally helmetless and bearded? How about totally helmetless AND beardless? Again, we just don't know.

[Wispy]

4 hours ago, mithrilforge said:

... are we so fixed  and blinkered into a thought process of how"WE"  expect something to be that we straight away shun or condemn this new thing because it doesn't fit exactly how "WE" perceive it should be... 

the 40k community shouldn't underestimate their ability to make something so utterly inhospitably radioactive this way that it causes business to just give up on something entirely rather than go back to the drawing board. Ask me one day why Relic abandoned the entire Dawn of War franchise rather than trying to make things right with one game.

Edited July 6, 2022 by Wispy

[AenarIT]

I think we need to see some models painted in a more grim/weathered way compared to the ultra clean 'Eavy Metal style. 

[Quantum]

17 hours ago, mithrilforge said:

See that may be where the problem lies, Lets say GW is thinking we want to take these "Space Dwarves" in a new direction that we think is fresh and new and not like every other dwarf archetype?... (and one we can control the IP on better ) what then?!?... are we so fixed  and blinkered into a thought process of how"WE"  expect something to be that we straight away shun or condemn this new thing because it doesn't fit exactly how "WE" perceive it should be... 

I love dwarves, I've read GW's novels and i also read Markus Heitz's "The Dwarves" Saga and I personally liked his idea's for dwarves the best...it doesn't mean i shun GW's completely or complain to them that "hey your stuff should be like this guys cause I think it's better than yours" ... same for models 

Mithril 

Emphasis mine in order to make clear what I am responding to.

Here lies exactly my problem with the models; it is not a fresh and new direction. What we seem to be getting is yet another army that is 'Elite-infantry-with-big-guns-and-power-armor'.  With only very small changes to the armor style (including making them a bit taller...) they would fit in just fine with any Space Marine army. They are not distinct enough.

Edited July 6, 2022 by Quantum

[Fire Golem]

I don’t think I overly like the heavy infantry guys, but I think they look miles better in the same scheme as the other infantry (pic from Twitter)

[TheVoidDragon]

6 hours ago, mithrilforge said:

See that may be where the problem lies, Lets say GW is thinking we want to take these "Space Dwarves" in a new direction that we think is fresh and new and not like every other dwarf archetype?... (and one we can control the IP on better ) what then?!?... are we so fixed  and blinkered into a thought process of how"WE"  expect something to be that we straight away shun or condemn this new thing because it doesn't fit exactly how "WE" perceive it should be... 

I love dwarves, I've read GW's novels and i also read Markus Heitz's "The Dwarves" Saga and I personally liked his idea's for dwarves the best...it doesn't mean i shun GW's completely or complain to them that "hey your stuff should be like this guys cause I think it's better than yours" ... same for models 

Mithril 

No, this whole "They're going in a new direction!" thing that keeps getting repeated both misses the point and ignores what the Leagues are.

It's in no way about not wanting a new direction. They can go in whatever direction they want for the theming of the Leagues themselves, but the characteristics that make up the Dwarf archetype are the characteristics that make up the Dwarf archetype. Regardless of the direction they go for, the Leagues are still based on the Dwarf archetype and should broadly adhere to that lore wise and aesthetically, otherwise they aren't Space Dwarfs.

The Leagues are undeniably Space Dwarfs. Short bearded miners and engineers with a direction that involves runes, nordic embellishments, Dwarf/votann faces, geometric patterns, axes/picks etc who dislike elfs, enjoy beer, have grudges, Ancestor worship and all that sort of stuff. They're going for the typical Dwarf styling.

What they aren't are Space Dwarfs done well aesthetically. The Leagues are DAoT Space "Dwarfs" who don't do the have their lore realized on their models well at all. The Leagues culture is the Dwarf aesthetic with runes, Nordic Patterns, Ancestor/Votann faces etc. Their lore has said that their culture and heritage with the Votann and Ancestors are extremely important to them. So show that on the models rather than just tell us. No matter what direction they had gone for, it should be there. As I have pointed out previously they don't even have the same level of cultural theming on their basic infantry as nearly every army in the game has.

The Dwarf styling and a new direction are not mutually exclusive. Just look at the Kharadron overlords for a very obvious example; Steampunk Sky Pirate Dwarfs is a very unique direction, but they don't loose what makes the Dwarfs Dwarfs aesthetically in order to do that.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 6, 2022 by TheVoidDragon

[Slave to Darkness]

12 hours ago, Reclusiarch Krieg said:

And now look at the stuff left in focus - arm, elbow pad, shoulder pad base shape, weapon gizmo. Those are all 3D sculpting assets deadass lifted from a Primaris Space Marine.

Did Cawl make their armour? Is their armour Space Marine+, all the while their STC-that-have-already-left-Terra-to-colonize-galactic-core history seems to predate Thunder Warriors, much less Mk1 and further PA?

What the hell is going on here, designers.

I was thinking about that last night actually, the Squat suits look like a basic suit with additional armour you can bolt on around the legs etc to make the weird Exo Armour, same as the new Primaris suits. 

[Halandaar]

2 hours ago, Wispy said:

Ask me one day why Relic abandoned the entire Dawn of War franchise rather than trying to make things right with one game.

Respectfully, the franchise wouldn't have needed rescuing with one more game if Dawn of War III had been a game people wanted to play in the first place. There was plenty of feedback given prior to release that wasn't heeded, and you (collectively, not personally) pushed ahead to deliver a game that wasn't what Dawn of War fans wanted from a sequel.

I know that sections of the community can be extremely hyperbolic, and negativity is often completely disproportionate to whatever "slight" is inflicted, but frankly any company worth it's salt should be able to filter out the REEing of neckbeards to find the actual, actionable feedback. Just because the same old voices are overly shrill and toxic, it doesn't mean that there isn't an underlying validity to their concerns which also affect more rational individuals.

The same goes for GW and Leagues of Votann, and the idea that feedback would be acted on if it were perceived as more measured is completely undermined by multiple examples of studios who stubbornly push on with unpopular designs and then act surprised when reception to the finished product isn't positive. It often feels like the only thing that causes a change of direction is a hit in the wallet.

 

[SpecialIssue]

I'm going to add fuel to the fire and say that these unit designs and concepts look quite uninspired and boring.

Off the top of my head:

Faction design language: runes, bathyspheres, steampunk diving suits in space, mining

Faction concept: durability, short range power, gravity/melta mining-inspired weapons. Flip normal high-tech convention on it's head by having energy shields and invulnerable saves common, and heavier physical armour as a sign of status / rarity in the faction (craftsmen valuing physical labour / artifice). 

Unit Concept:

Shield-Bearers: tough, short range line troops with only carapace armour but with breaching shields and all with decent invulnerable saves. Either CC weapons (armour-piercing picks, grav hammers?) or short range grav weapons (crushers, shunters). Put them in base-to-base contact (or stratagem, etc) for increased invulnerable save.

Free Masons: quasi-Terminator/killa-kan/super-heavy infantry/small monstrous creature equivalents, fully enclosed steampunk-esque diving suits with gravity rams

Bathyspheres: something that looks like a bathysphere that slowly hovers and has weapons, I dunno. Transport. Quite tough. Close combat weapons on arms (drills, etc?)

I think I have already crafted a much more memorable and independent faction identity here than everything so far displayed, with it's hodgepodge reskinned boltguns, plasma, volkite, etc. and blasé generic sci-fi armour. Everything about their models lack an independent character and design identity.

[Subtleknife]

I must say I do find these newer units I've seen rather uninspired imo. Maybe it's me as I don't think they click with how I imagined dwarves in space to look. I just think there are many themes that aren't used here. 

I still hope they are successful as a product and its just me

Edited July 6, 2022 by Subtleknife

[Brother Casman]

I have to say that I look at these models and I see a blank canvas for people to fill out however they like. You want to paint Celtic knotwork on 'em? Go ahead, there's lots of spaces to do that. You want to 3d print some ancestor faces? Do it, it'll look good. Dirty them up. Cut them apart and kitbash! Paint runes on them!

I look on these models and I see potential.

I like 'em. 

[TheVoidDragon]

46 minutes ago, Brother Casman said:

I have to say that I look at these models and I see a blank canvas for people to fill out however they like. You want to paint Celtic knotwork on 'em? Go ahead, there's lots of spaces to do that. You want to 3d print some ancestor faces? Do it, it'll look good. Dirty them up. Cut them apart and kitbash! Paint runes on them!

I look on these models and I see potential.

I like 'em. 

There being "potential" isn't an excuse for them to be devoid of a distinct faction identity and to not have their lore realized via the miniatures, though. I like that there's potential too, I can see all sorts of different bits and styles fitting on them, but that doesn't mean it's then alright that they're generic sci-fi styled and without much of the Dwarf theming that is actually part of them.

2 hours ago, SpecialIssue said:

I think I have already crafted a much more memorable and independent faction identity here than everything so far displayed, with it's hodgepodge reskinned boltguns, plasma, volkite, etc. and blasé generic sci-fi armour. Everything about their models lack an independent character and design identity.

I get why they're going for the Imperial-adjacent stuff, but they at the very least could have gone for a different style. Necromunda equipment is all Imperial too but those are differentiated from each other and other examples of the Imperium significantly.

Edited July 6, 2022 by TheVoidDragon

[Guest Triszin]

from what we've seen so far, there is a distinct faction identity.

STC humans (off shoot) in 40k, without the church.

There aesthetics make sense, if you look at it from that point of view; There technology should look like a mis match hodgepog of admech, marines and guard.

 

THey are a "new" faction, and we havent really seen much of there art lore background or models.

THey are not the classic "squats" those classics were eaten by nids, and the few survivors now on munda.

 

 

as for how they will fit them into 40k current lore?

- my assumption is they are active, and are a growing faction in imperium nihilus, with a growing number of imperial and xeno forces contracting them for use of there jump gates and assistance.

Edited July 6, 2022 by Triszin