Leagues of Votann Initial 1st April 2022 reveal, new lore & articles discussion

[TheVoidDragon]

31 minutes ago, Triszin said:

from what we've seen so far, there is a distinct faction identity.

STC humans (off shoot) in 40k, without the church.

There aesthetics make sense, if you look at it from that point of view; There technology should look like a mis match hodgepog of admech, marines and guard.

 

THey are a "new" faction, and we havent really seen much of there art lore background or models.

THey are not the classic "squats" those classics were eaten by nids, and the few survivors now on munda.

 

 

as for how they will fit them into 40k current lore?

- my assumption is they are active, and are a growing faction in imperium nihilus, with a growing number of imperial and xeno forces contracting them for use of there jump gates and assistance.

Their visual identity "making sense" with their lore doesn't mean it's an interesting look. They could have gone for all sorts of directions for them - Retrofuturism, Dieselpunk, Classic 70s/80s sci-fi, cyberpunk, Atompunk etc. Even just properly Dwarfy Space Dwarfs. Instead we've got something that is a combination of a (quite bland) sci-fi style and slight hints of Dwarf (In a way that involves sticking bits on without much thought afterwards) that does neither aspect of their look in to a good extent. The Kharadron overlords are a unique take on the Dwarf archetype with them being Steampunk Sky Pirate Dwarfs, these feel generic in comparison as well as lacking on the Dwarf side.

We've seen enough of their lore to know that they're meant to be Space Dwarfs lore-wise and as part of their aesthetics, and to know that they're just telling us their culture and heritage (which is represented by the Dwarf aesthetic) is important to them, rather than showing that on the basic miniatures.

These guys are the classic squats. There is no indication that the original version even existed in the setting anymore, the Leagues are a retcon of them. The Squats on Necromunda aren't survivors of the originals, they're members of the League who left the homeworlds and settled on Necromunda thousands of years ago.

 

Edited July 6, 2022 by TheVoidDragon

[TrawlingCleaner]

++ A polite reminder that all opinions that fellow frater offer are valid, as are your own. Shouting down or belittling other Frater for differing opinions is not welcome. This isn't Reddit ++

[Mana]

I'm not a fan of these designs. The last ones give me starcraft marines vibes. Won't be buying them, just not my thing. But I'm happy for the people that likes them! 

[Lemondish]

5 hours ago, TheVoidDragon said:

Regardless of the direction they go for, the Leagues are still based on the Dwarf archetype and should broadly adhere to that lore wise and aesthetically, otherwise they aren't Space Dwarfs.

Except they aren't "Space Dwarfs". They're the Leagues of Votann, see? Just look to the inclusion of Men of Iron as kin or the Pioneers as rugged explorers and prospectors as but two glaring examples that they are going in a different direction than being tied to the unstated and unfounded expectation the term "Space Dwarfs" creates, both narratively and with the models. It is okay to not like this direction, it's also okay to feel it's 'uninspired', or 'generic', just as long as you also accept that your opinion isn't fact and certainly isn't universal.

Thanks to nobody at GW saying "Space Dwarfs", at least as far as I've seen, we're in the clear there. If your expectations were "Space Dwarfs", when not even squats fit that (seriously, their early looks shared in this very thread were goofy biker dwarfs), then I'd say the disappointment you're feeling is nobody's fault but your own. It's fine to be disappointed by the way, but I'm not sure it's really an issue with the models so much as a mismatch with what you expected or wanted them to be. Again, that disappointment is in no way invalid, but it's also important to put it into context - you (general you) wanted "Space Dwarfs" (or more accurately, Dwarfs in Space) and instead you're getting the Leagues of Votann, who have some similarities but are really a whole different concept entirely. 

Full disclosure: I am so on board with the Leagues I've already planned to accelerate work on my current projects to justify jumping in with both feet, just to be clear where my inherent bias lies lol

Edited July 6, 2022 by Lemondish

[TheVoidDragon]

51 minutes ago, Lemondish said:

Except they aren't "Space Dwarfs". They're the Leagues of Votann, see? Just look to the inclusion of Men of Iron as kin or the Pioneers as rugged explorers and prospectors as but two glaring examples that they are going in a different direction than being tied to the unstated and unfounded expectation the term "Space Dwarfs" creates, both narratively and with the models. 

Thanks to nobody at GW saying "Space Dwarfs", at least as far as I've seen, we're in the clear there. If your expectations were "Space Dwarfs", when not even squats fit that (seriously, their early looks shared in this very thread were goofy biker dwarfs), then I'd say the disappointment you're feeling is nobody's fault but your own. It's fine to be disappointed by the way, but I'm not sure it's really an issue with the models so much as a mismatch with what you expected or wanted them to be. Again, that disappointment is in no way invalid, but it's also important to put it into context - you (general you) wanted "Space Dwarfs" (or more accurately, Dwarfs in Space) and instead you're getting the Leagues of Votann, who have some similarities but are really a whole different concept entirely. 

Full disclosure: I am so on board with the Leagues I've already planned to accelerate work on my current projects to justify jumping in with both feet, just to be clear where my inherent bias lies lol

I genuinely find it baffling if you honestly think that they are not meant to be "Space Dwarfs" . How you can see all that lore and the artwork of them, and then come to the conclusion that they are not the settings representation of the Dwarf archetype? If a race of short hardy stoic bearded "humans" with very long lives, who are master craftsmen, engineers and Miners, who reverse their ancestors and are proud of their heritage with their culture being an important part of their society, who hold grudges, dislike Elves and enjoy drinking beer, use Norse-mythology based names and have aesthetics that involve Nordic patterns, runes, other bits of elaborate metalwork and even have the same sort of Dwarf Head icon as WHFB Dwarfs, AOS Fyreslayers and Kharadron, somehow isn't a representation of the Dwarf archetype to you, then I wonder just what you consider Dwarfs to be.  That they are not called "Space Dwarfs" makes no difference to that being what they are meant to be.

And yes the original Squats were still Space Dwarfs. Their original box was even actually called Space Dwarfs. The biker theming in no way stopped them from being themed on the Dwarf archetype and claiming that the Ironkin and Pioneers mean the Leagues aren't either is just odd, those in no way lessen the Dwarf theming.

 

Edited July 6, 2022 by TheVoidDragon

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

And the leagues will be squatted in 5 years or less based on these reactions.

[Bryan Blaire]

As far as we can tell, about the only things that the Leagues share with what you are listing as representing the Dwarf archetype are the short folk who are master craftsmen, and revere their “ancestors” in the form of the Votann machines.  Their use of knot work patterns and runes seems to be minimal, we have no evidence that they are long-lived that I recall having seen so far, we haven’t been told that they are engineers (their designs come from the Votann, not their own work that we’ve been told) or miners, they don’t seem any more proud of their culture than any other 40K race, they haven’t been shown to hold grudges inordinately, they haven’t been shown to dislike the Eldar, they haven’t been shown to enjoy drinking anything, they don’t specifically use Nordic-based names that we have seen (more like quasi-Nordic for their unit names).

So I’m not sure that GW is actually trying to produce something that cleaves to the concept of “Dwarf in Space” all that tightly… it’s okay if someone doesn’t like that, but it is not what they seem to be trying to make.

Now, I’ve got some personal niggles with the Exo-armor models, but they are things that could be resolved fairly readily, but what I’m not going to do is wish that the concept of what GW is making was something other than what they are doing with them.

Edited July 6, 2022 by Bryan Blaire

[TheVoidDragon]

2 minutes ago, Bryan Blaire said:

As far as we can tell, about the only things that the Leagues share with what you are listing as representing the Dwarf archetype are the short folk who are master craftsmen, and revere their “ancestors” in the form of the Votann machines.  Their use of knot work patterns and runes seems to be minimal, we have no evidence that they are long-lived that I recall having seen so far, we haven’t been told that they are engineers (their designs come from the Votann, not their own work that we’ve been told) or miners, they don’t seem any more proud of their culture than any other 40K race, they haven’t been shown to hold grudges inordinately, they haven’t been shown to dislike the Eldar, they haven’t been shown to enjoy drinking anything, they don’t specifically use Nordic-based names that we have seen (more like quasi-Nordic for their unit names).

So I’m not sure that GW is actually trying to produce something that cleaves to the concept of “Dwarf in Space” all that tightly… it’s okay if someone doesn’t like that, but it is not what they seem to be trying to make.

Everything I said has been mentioned either as part of the Leagues themselves, or in an article relating to the Ironhead Squats who were League members.

Edited July 6, 2022 by TheVoidDragon

[Iron Father Ferrum]

=][= Disagreeing is fine.  Circular arguments however are a waste of time and effort.  Let it go or take it to PMs please. =][=

[Valkyrion]

They look like Tau in aesthetics, so much so they could be Tau allies, like Kroot or Vespid.
 

The Necromunda squats do a much better job of portraying Sci Fi dwarves, and whilst I get that GW wanted to make NOT SQUATS you can't hide from the fact they have made short, squat, sci fi....well, dwarves. So why not make them look a bit more like fantasy dwarves, instead of ultra bland generic Manticy-Blizzardy types that have little to no 40k aesthetic? 

Anyway, I'm glad I don't like them, because if they had made them like the old 80's squats, or made Sci Fi versions of Thorgrim Grudgebearer and Ironbreakers then I would have bought them. Now I don't have to. 

[Bryan Blaire]

14 minutes ago, TheVoidDragon said:

Everything I said has been mentioned either as part of the Leagues themselves, or in an article relating to the Ironhead Squats who were League members.

Eh - the “engineers” thing is questionable to me because of their automated foundry/terminal aspect, and many other things (like the “long-lived” aspect) have been said in that fashion, but not really expounded upon.  A 90 year old human is also long lived.  Their “loving their culture” and ancestral concepts were even stated to be similar to that of the Imperial Knights - showing that they aren’t any more specifically reverent than other factions (who don’t have that represented in their models).  I haven’t actually seen the elf thing, but that may be because I can’t find it.

And yes, the Ironheads used to be part of the Leagues - they no longer are - so things stemming from them are not necessarily directly applicable to the Leagues of Votann members.

Again, there was one path that could have been taken for the Leagues - it isn’t the one that has been taken.  Being upset about that is valid, but it doesn’t mean that anyone that isn’t is somehow wrong - all views on this stuff can exist.  If you don’t like what GW is presenting, it would probably be more constructive to talk about how you would go about “fixing” the models to better represent your view of them in your mind (conversion, using alternative parts, etc.) or moving on, because we’ve already been cautioned about making the same arguments over and over.

@Valkyrion, I think they look similar to the Tau because the implication has been it was the Leagues that taught the Tau about tech - so design-wise it makes sense they look somewhat close.

Edited July 6, 2022 by Bryan Blaire

[TheVoidDragon]

12 minutes ago, Bryan Blaire said:

Eh - the “engineers” thing is questionable to me because of their automated foundry/terminal aspect, and many other things (like the “long-lived” aspect) have been said in that fashion, but not really expounded upon.  A 90 year old human is also long lived.  Their “loving their culture” and ancestral concepts were even stated to be similar to that of the Imperial Knights - showing that they aren’t any more specifically reverent than other factions (who don’t have that represented in their models).  I haven’t actually seen the elf thing 

And yes, the Ironheads used to be part of the Leagues - they no longer are - so things stemming from them are not necessarily directly applicable to the Leagues of Votann members.

Again, there was one path that could have been taken for the Leagues - it isn’t the one that has been taken.

From Necromunda it's said the "Squats" (The League members who left the core worlds) who arrived on Necromunda were "unequaled in their skill, being a race of engineers, architects and craftsmen" and as well an article mentioning that the Ironkin are accompanied by skilled engineers.

The Latest article about their anatomy only says they're long lived, but Ragnir Gunnstein - who was a Hearthguard from one of the Strongholds - is hundreds of years old.

The Imperial Knights comparison in that article wasn't a statement on the similarity of importance of culture levels specifically, but rather just a general idea of them both revering their ancestors. It's said the Leagues culture and their Ancestors are extremely important to them to the extent that "truly honouring their ancestors" is something that factors into their whole life.

The Ironheads are no longer part of the Leagues, sure, but some of their stuff still applies. For example "we’re sure they’d still get on with the Kin who are all grumbling about the Aeldari while sitting in the pub"; beer and dislike of Elves.

Edited July 6, 2022 by TheVoidDragon

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, TheVoidDragon said:

I genuinely find it baffling if you honestly think that they are not meant to be "Space Dwarfs" . The "you just wanted fantasy dwarfs in space!" (whatever that even means) dismissal of peoples complaints keep getting repeated but it just comes across as misconstruing things, because it's about wanting the army based on the Dwarf archetype to be a good representation of the Dwarf archetype.

How you can see all that lore and the artwork of them, and then come to the conclusion that they are not the settings representation of the Dwarf archetype? If a race of short hardy stoic bearded "humans" with very long lives, who are master craftsmen, engineers and Miners, who reverse their ancestors and are proud of their heritage with their culture being an important part of their society, who hold grudges, dislike Elves and enjoy drinking beer, use Nordic-based names and have aesthetics that involve Nordic patterns, runes, other bits of elaborate metalwork and even have the same sort of Dwarf Head icon as WHFB Dwarfs, AOS Fyreslayers and Kharadron, somehow isn't a representation of the Dwarf archetype to you, then I wonder just what you consider Dwarfs to be.  That they are not called "Space Dwarfs" makes no difference to that being what they are meant to be.

And yes the original Squats were still Space Dwarfs. Their original box was even actually called Space Dwarfs. The biker theming in no way stopped them from being themed on the Dwarf archetype. Claiming that the Ironkin and Pioneers mean they're not Dwarfs is just odd, those in no way lessen the Dwarf theming either.

 

Where in the votann lore does it say anything about disliking space elves?

 

We’re all sorry you didn’t get the Tolkien dwarves in space you wanted.

 

you don’t like them won’t buy them we get it, can you stop filling the thread with negativity and let the people who do like them enjoy them?

[Bryan Blaire]

31 minutes ago, TheVoidDragon said:

For example "we’re sure they’d still get on with the Kin who are all grumbling about the Aeldari while sitting in the pub"; beer and dislike of Elves.

Yeah, that has the tone of an inside joke/wink wink nudge nudge to me, not something they actually do…

As far as the long-lived thing - there are humans that are closing in on like two centuries at least, and probably older than that. We don’t have a ton of good data on it other than the statement that they are “long-lived”.

The whole response doesn’t address anything about how you would actually address the models if you dislike the direction GW has taken them.  The concept of “Just do something different with them”/a whole different aesthetic doesn’t help - the models are as they have presented.  It’s upon us to either “fix” them according to our own views, or simply move on to another line of models we like more.

Yes, it is upon you (the common man “you”) individually to rationally work around obstacles and things presented to you that you do not agree with.  Not dealing with them and moving on is also a valid concept, but doesn’t “solve” the problem you see as existing.  Endlessly railing at the unfairness of the decisions of others doesn’t change the results of those decisions (in this case, the models that GW is going to be putting out) and is not a solution at all - and something we have been cautioned not to continue by the Mods.

Edited July 6, 2022 by Bryan Blaire

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

37 minutes ago, TheVoidDragon said:

From Necromunda it's said the "Squats" (The League members who left the core worlds) who arrived on Necromunda were "unequaled in their skill, being a race of engineers, architects and craftsmen" and as well an article mentioning that the Ironkin are accompanied by skilled engineers.

The Latest article about their anatomy only says they're long lived, but Ragnir Gunnstein - who was a Hearthguard from one of the Strongholds - is hundreds of years old.

The Imperial Knights comparison in that article wasn't a statement on the similarity of importance of culture levels specifically, but rather just a general idea of them both revering their ancestors. It's said the Leagues culture and their Ancestors are extremely important to them to the extent that "truly honouring their ancestors" is something that factors into their whole life.

The Ironheads are no longer part of the Leagues, sure, but some of their stuff still applies. For example "we’re sure they’d still get on with the Kin who are all grumbling about the Aeldari while sitting in the pub"; beer and dislike of Elves.

long lived is pretty standard for 40k...admech is long lived, marines are long lived, eldar are long lived,  even 'baseline' humans tend to be long lived. how old was eisenhorn? we know he was born 198M41, and his last adventure end 386M41, and he was seen sporadically in the years following so he likely reached 200 yrs old. ravenor was over 100yrs old as well.
i believe ibram gaunt was 100+ when he died as well.

long lived is not a unique thing in the 40k universe and we have not been given any information to indicate they're particularly long lived relative to the other 'long lived' factions.

skilled engineers...well literally every faction has skilled engineers in it...that's kind of a prerequisite for a spacefaring race in a sci-fi franchise....
 

[phandaal]

30 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Where in the votann lore does it say anything about disliking space elves?

 

We’re all sorry you didn’t get the Tolkien dwarves in space you wanted.

 

you don’t like them won’t buy them we get it, can you stop filling the thread with negativity and let the people who do like them enjoy them?

I like them and will buy them, but it is not in any way shape or form unreasonable for someone to expect Squats to be Space Dwarves, or at least to lean more heavily into a "Space Dwarf" theme.

Anyone who says they were not expecting Squats to be some kind of Space Dwarf is not being honest. Someone can be happy that New Squats are not as Space Dwarf-y as expected, but the reasonable expectation was that they would be.

And yes, the marketing itself leans heavily into traditional Dwarven themes. People can be happy again that the models do not reflect this as much, but every description so far has been Dwarfish. Hell, they even gave the Squat in the first reveal video a traditional "Dwarven" voice.

Maybe we should all try and see if we can still like something even if not everyone is validating our opinions by agreeing with them.

Edited July 6, 2022 by phandaal

[TheMawr]

From the previous leaked cards (stratagems I think ?) its clear there will be a berzerker/slayer unit (named berzerker but spelled differently) that will likely make the total picture more dwarfish, possibly the inevitable solos and HQs too. in that way the approach to space dwarves is no different from space elves... eldar basics( to my own begrudgement) dont necessarily have any of the desirable elf tropes (less so than what we have seen from the kin, just compare guardians, while ignoring anyhting else from the eldar range to the votann troops.) its only when you add in howling banshees, shining spears, warlocks and an avatar of khaine when it clearly becomes elves in space. even with other armies from the main "troops" point of view many 40k armies arent what some define as 40k... its when you add in the spacewizards, space relgions, specialist units (and specialised armies) where generic scifi becomes indistinguasably 40k.

While Im not a fan of dwarves ( dont hate them either, and they are an essential trope for 40k imho) I do think what is seen so far looks very good, I do think they had a better squat reboot already through kharadon overlords whom I think could have shined better in the 40k setting than the AoS one, but nothing to do about that.

I think some things could also be said from a presentation point of view, for example these new elites main weapon isnt that wristblade.. but something fisty from the sound of it, yet they only show the blades. and the leader of the troops also has a hammer, yet they focused on the sword. Those little details can be important in presentation for the general vibe.

[Slave to Darkness]

1 hour ago, phandaal said:

 

Maybe we should all try and see if we can still like something even if not everyone is validating our opinions by agreeing with them.

I like the fact Ill be saving money on this release, everything I already have can be used with the Votan book (as long as bike squads continue to be a thing), the only thing so far is weapon options that may get a bit iffy but nothing I cant figure out. Plus my Squat/Chaos Squat armies are primarily for playing 1st/2nd edition, I have plenty of other armies for 9th.

[Spagunk]

I think everyone should be comparing LoV to Van Saar as they're the closest "army" that aesthetically matches what we see so far. They have very similar looks/features which makes sense since Van Saar also prodigiously uses STC/DAoT era tech. 

In that context, these all look on track and in line with the aesthetic.

[TheVoidDragon]

2 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Where in the votann lore does it say anything about disliking space elves?

 

We’re all sorry you didn’t get the Tolkien dwarves in space you wanted.

 

you don’t like them won’t buy them we get it, can you stop filling the thread with negativity and let the people who do like them enjoy them?

I find this to be just a really poor attitude to have. Both the condescending tone with once again the utterly absurd misconstruing of complaints with "You want Tolkien/fantasy Dwarfs in Space!!!!", and that you're effectively saying "Only positive posts about the Leagues!" as if criticizing or discussing negative aspects isn't allowed. People disagreeing with you shouldn't in any way stop you "enjoying them".

And just where did I say i won't buy them? Why are you making out that discussing things that I feel could have been done better is some outright hate of them?

Edited July 6, 2022 by TheVoidDragon

[Valkyrion]

It's an internet thing in general, not exclusive to this wonderful forum, that criticism must mean hate must mean toxic must mean negativity must mean boycotting must mean whatever....

If you don't like something then you should be able to voice that dislike on the appropriate platform, which this is, and whilst there may have been a bit of circular argument going on, VoidDragon (I don't know how to link names) has been nothing but polite and articulate, and shrugged off a few condescending or patronising replies that he/she/they could've been baited by. 

The poster only has 57 posts, but I hope they aren't chased off by the ones with 2000+ posts, because volume on the internet is apparently better than content....

 

Anyway, we've stopped talking about the main thing, so to get back on track, there's not enough palanquins in 40k. The squats were a perfect faction to reintroduce the palanquin with a God Level dwarf, but twas not to be.  Maybe Epidemius, one can hope. 
 

[Leif Bearclaw]

6 minutes ago, Valkyrion said:

Anyway, we've stopped talking about the main thing, so to get back on track, there's not enough palanquins in 40k. The squats were a perfect faction to reintroduce the palanquin with a God Level dwarf, but twas not to be.  Maybe Epidemius, one can hope. 
 

To be entirely fair, we've not seen any HQ type units for the Votann yet, which is clearly where a palanquin would belong. So you might still get your wish .

[Valkyrion]

4 minutes ago, Leif Bearclaw said:

To be entirely fair, we've not seen any HQ type units for the Votann yet, which is clearly where a palanquin would belong. So you might still get your wish .

That is quite correct. But given what we've seen, it'd be a hover palanquin, which as we all know is not the same thing. Nurglings or tiny muscly men or nothing at all!

 

[Shield-Captain]

I really like them and the direction they seem to be going. I have more than enough projects at the moment but Khaine/Emperor/Ancestor-willing I will get around to them in due course. 
 

I am excited to see more things we have not seen yet. Probably some sort of hover tank, those bezerker guys everyone keeps mentioning, and maybe a couple of thane types. Also at least one of their weird not-psykers.

[Slave to Darkness]

16 minutes ago, Valkyrion said:

That is quite correct. But given what we've seen, it'd be a hover palanquin, which as we all know is not the same thing. Nurglings or tiny muscly men or nothing at all!

 

Damn 'Imperials' getting all the good toys when they get stripped from the Chaos dex *grumbles in first edition'.

 

Jokes aside, c'mon GW give us Nurgle players our pimp rides back...