Leagues of Votann Initial 1st April 2022 reveal, new lore & articles discussion

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

7 hours ago, Halandaar said:

This a pretty rich post given you've spent so much effort in this thread calling other people's comments pointless non-contributions.

Ha, how are Primaris devoid of faction identity?! Their faction is Space Marines, and they look exactly like Space Marines. Intercessors for example aren't any different from the Tactical Marines or Assault Marines or whatever from previous generations. How is one better than the other? 

Yeah I'm inclined to agree with this, to an extent. Sticking knotwork and runes on stuff doesn't automatically make it Dwarfy. Biker gangs aren't exactly brimming with Dwarf identity when hardly any setting has them use cavalry of any kind.

that post was adding comic relief ;)

[Slave to Darkness]

16 hours ago, Lemondish said:

In the grim darkness of the far future, ignorance is a virtue.

Good point lol. 

[ShibeKing]

Those power gauntlet sword things (I'm not familiar with weapon names) are pretty cool.

Also jealous the ankle biters seem to be getting all the new volkite. 

[TheVoidDragon]

6 minutes ago, ShibeKing said:

Those power gauntlet sword things (I'm not familiar with weapon names) are pretty cool.

Also jealous the ankle biters seem to be getting all the new volkite. 

Primaris Marines have Volkite weapons too now, though.

I think it's a cool idea to give the Leagues the sort of things that used to be quite common to the Imperium and are now a rarity, but I also think Cawl re-inventing things like Neo-Volkite sort of undermines it too.

Edited July 7, 2022 by TheVoidDragon

[Slave to Darkness]

1 minute ago, TheVoidDragon said:

Primaris Marines have Volkite weapons too now, though.

I think it's a cool idea to give the Leagues the sort of things that used to be quite common to the Imperium, but I also think Cawl re-inventing things like Neo-Volkite sort of undermines it too.

Considering he has been alive since the Heresy I find it hard to believe that Volkite was totally forgotten by everyone apart from him. Amazing how one person has done bugger all for 10 thousand years then all of a sudden he is everywhere with most of the major changes in the setting being because of him. Instead of leaving the weapons on the shelf until now why not 're invent' them sooner, there has been many Hive Fleets, Waaaghs, Black Crusades etc etc that could have had different results if the weapons were available. 

[Lexington]

8 hours ago, Halandaar said:

Biker gangs aren't exactly brimming with Dwarf identity when hardly any setting has them use cavalry of any kind.

Eh, yeah, but I don't think successful 40K concepts are about taking the surface "identity" of something else. They utilize archetypes. Ultramarines are by-the-book soldiers. Space Wolves are their feral barbarian opposite. Eldar are tragic high-born aesthetes. Et-cetera. You know who these people and cultures are in just a few sentences.

Whatever one wants to say about the old Squats, you understand them at a glance. They're doughty, salt-of-the-earth types filled with grit and ingenuity, and they get the job done. There's expansions and variations on those ideas as you dig deeper in to the background and army lists, but it all comes back to that core.

I don't think you can say the same thing about the Leagues thus far. You might know their history, their relation to the wider setting of 40K and how they mine some bits from the Imperium's history, but as to who they are? Still not really sure. GW isn't very good at that kind of thing anymore.

[Spagunk]

1 hour ago, Slave to Darkness said:

Considering he has been alive since the Heresy I find it hard to believe that Volkite was totally forgotten by everyone apart from him. Amazing how one person has done bugger all for 10 thousand years then all of a sudden he is everywhere with most of the major changes in the setting being because of him. Instead of leaving the weapons on the shelf until now why not 're invent' them sooner, there has been many Hive Fleets, Waaaghs, Black Crusades etc etc that could have had different results if the weapons were available. 

I am pretty sure it's more of a "stockpiled/created this stuff over 10k years, waiting for G-man to unlock the flood gates" rather than any RECENT inventions. Like, how far fetched is it for a borderline tech heretic to hobby it up for ten THOUSAND years and once he finally gets permission to show everyone what he's been doing, you get mass re-issuing and deployment of associated support platforms to guarantee that the tech isn't lost?

Hell, I am sure half the stuff wasn't invented by the real Cawl but one of his other AI/Brain/insanity pots at some point.

And you may ask, why did he need G-Man's permission? Well its a protection thing. Cawl was able to sequester himself for millennia under the same red tape everyone ELSE in the imperium uses for doing anything:  "some guy who doesn't even exist anymore told me so I'm just going to keep doing this until the high lords tell me otherwise" . And not even the high lords really had the authority since imperial law dictated that Primarchs can actually supersede the High Lords authority. Doesn't matter that primarchs don't exist, the law is the law and so someone got to ignore the entire Imperium and do whatever he wanted in the sanction heresy attic.

IDK, I think this isn't a valid take since GW had the foresight to write the McGuffin that solves the continuity crisis they caused by going this new direction.

Regardless, this thread is about Votann, not Cawl. Votann is being worked on and GW is trying to write them in. They did the same thing with Ta'u and Kroot when they first introduced them so they're doing the same here.

Edited July 7, 2022 by Spagunk

[phandaal]

2 hours ago, Slave to Darkness said:

Considering he has been alive since the Heresy I find it hard to believe that Volkite was totally forgotten by everyone apart from him. Amazing how one person has done bugger all for 10 thousand years then all of a sudden he is everywhere with most of the major changes in the setting being because of him. Instead of leaving the weapons on the shelf until now why not 're invent' them sooner, there has been many Hive Fleets, Waaaghs, Black Crusades etc etc that could have had different results if the weapons were available. 

Cawl actually invented the Squats by going back in time to the Age of Founding and jumping up and down on some colonists' heads. He just could not say anything about it until Lion El'Johnson had a bad dream or something.

[TheVoidDragon]

1 hour ago, Spagunk said:

Regardless, this thread is about Votann, not Cawl. Votann is being worked on and GW is trying to write them in. They did the same thing with Ta'u and Kroot when they first introduced them so they're doing the same here.

I wonder how exactly they're going to fit the Leagues in in terms of their Prescence. The articles say they've had "millenia of Isolation", and as far as i'm aware all the lore says is that, for some reason, the Imperium thinks they are extinct. It would be funny if it turns out to have been something like the Tyranids were heading that way (i'm not sure if that's even been said to be why they're meant to be "extinct" though?) and the Imperium just assumed nothing could survive and then didn't bother to actually go check.

[Spagunk]

7 minutes ago, TheVoidDragon said:

I wonder how exactly they're going to fit the Leagues in in terms of their Prescence. The articles say they've had "millenia of Isolation", and as far as i'm aware all the lore says is that, for some reason, the Imperium thinks they are extinct. It would be funny if it turns out to have been something like the Tyranids were heading that way (i'm not sure if that's even been said to be why they're meant to be "extinct" though?) and the Imperium just assumed nothing could survive and then didn't bother to actually go check.

My guess is that it is going to be a ruse that the Votann used to hide themselves. Like the 'Nids totally hit the galaxy core but actually were fended off. However the league used that invasion to make it seem like they're gone. Not sure but it seems that's what the lore will say.

Edited July 7, 2022 by Spagunk

[Lemondish]

3 hours ago, Lexington said:

Whatever one wants to say about the old Squats, you understand them at a glance. They're doughty, salt-of-the-earth types filled with grit and ingenuity, and they get the job done.

I understood them more as "Biker Gnomes from Mars". Or "Gretchin, but with hair". 

This new faction is an interesting beast largely because you can see elements of your fearless and inventive sand paper folk in the Pioneer model, while the other models invoke a people with a knack for science and a mastery of high tech weaponry. It's not just one thing. Diluting faction identity down to one statement usually misses their greatest elements. Heretic Astartes are more than just "Space Marines with spikes", even if their initial design language looks like that. T'au are more than "Gundams and fish folk", but during their introduction that was all that was mentioned at a glance.

I think the same is true of the Leagues. We still have so much to learn. 

 

[TheVoidDragon]

8 minutes ago, Lemondish said:

I understood them more as "Biker Gnomes from Mars". Or "Gretchin, but with hair". 

 

Do you not think this was mostly down to the fact that Rogue Trader had generally a sillier/less serious tone than 40k does now, and that the tabletop version the Classic Squats was relatively basic, though? There didn't seem to be that much that was overly silly with their lore, it was some of the zainy artwork (which was common back then) and tabletop models that caused the problem I think, their Epic depiction was a bit more towards the serious high-tech mastercrafted war machine side than the 40k stuff was.  Like, sure, Biker Dwarfs seems like a bit of a strange idea, but we've getting biker Dwarfs again now just in a way that's more serious. 

Edited July 7, 2022 by TheVoidDragon

[Lemondish]

17 minutes ago, TheVoidDragon said:

Do you not think this was mostly down to the fact that Rogue Trader had generally a sillier/less serious tone than 40k does now, and that the tabletop version the Classic Squats was relatively basic, though? There didn't seem to be that much that was overly silly with their lore, it was some of the zainy artwork (which was common back then) and tabletop models that caused the problem I think, their Epic depiction was a bit more towards the serious high-tech mastercrafted war machine side than the 40k stuff was.  Like, sure, Biker Dwarfs seems like a bit of a strange idea, but we've getting biker Dwarfs again now just in a way that's more serious. 

That is a very good point. These things absolutely do need the historical context to make sense of.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

5 hours ago, Spagunk said:

My guess is that it is going to be a ruse that the Votann used to hide themselves. Like the 'Nids totally hit the galaxy core but actually were fended off. However the league used that invasion to make it seem like they're gone. Not sure but it seems that's what the lore will say.

Or it will be completely ignored because it was never actually official 

[MithrilForge]

Unfortunately since Primaris arose and Cawl "resurfaced" GW's Fluff /lore for 40k Has been pretty Flimsy and full of holes, things get retconned, changed  and made up more times than we've had Hot dinners. I've actually stopped thinking about and using the lore in recent years, when I was younger I did care about things like ooh! my army is a Unit/battalion from this period and this character is in charge etc etc, nowadays it's more just - these are my Tabletop ready painted models and this is the cool terrain I have and this is the colour scheme i chose...and no it's not what that army has officially it's my choice 

I'm going to be doing that with these "Space dwarves" when they arrive, If the Fluff /Lore is good than ok I'll work with it but if it's Really Lame'O then I'll just go my own way with it... I too do want some kind of Dwarviness in my army, I admit I do like the Clean Futuristic colours GW has chosen but i do also want to explore More of an Old School Metal Feel of Silvers/Mithrils, Golds/brass and all things Dwarves in Old hammer had back in the day, who knows, they may look really cool in suits of Mithril silver with Gold Trim, leather pouches kinda like this below - 

and some converted power Axes  and a splash of some Blue runic tattoo's here n there....and maybe even some helmet wings   Idea's are Brewing!!

I'd like to see some more Models though, as mentioned here...Large Vehicles?... transports?....Characters?...

 

Mithril   

Edited July 8, 2022 by mithrilforge

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

4 hours ago, Lemondish said:

That is a very good point. These things absolutely do need the historical context to make sense of.

Every other faction was sillier back then too, but could still be identified as what their actual inspiration was.

[Felix Antipodes]

I get the feeling that GW are working on a duel path scenario wrt the Leagues and the original Squats, as in the clans which left the Votann heartland and resettled within the Imperium on Necromunda and elsewhere, are the ones munched by the Nids.  Ten thousand years of cultural drift being their excuse for the difference between them.

They are certainly only paying lip service to their first edition ancestors so far.

[appiah4]

13 hours ago, Slave to Darkness said:

Considering he has been alive since the Heresy I find it hard to believe that Volkite was totally forgotten by everyone apart from him. Amazing how one person has done bugger all for 10 thousand years then all of a sudden he is everywhere with most of the major changes in the setting being because of him. Instead of leaving the weapons on the shelf until now why not 're invent' them sooner, there has been many Hive Fleets, Waaaghs, Black Crusades etc etc that could have had different results if the weapons were available. 

You are trying to make sense out of a plot device that was invented only to re-sell the same plastic toys to grown up children.

[ArielRSA]

I like most of what they've revealed so far but I don't think the colour scheme they've chosen is doing the models any favours. I think a red scheme for the box art would probably have done better but that's just me

Has any reason been given for why the Leagues are making movements now besides the Votann slowing down considerably?

[OttoVonAwesome]

Oldschool scheme only. Red Yellow and green anything else dishonors the ancestors.

[MithrilForge]

A Dishonouring we will go ... 

Everyone Knows the Ancestors were colour Blind so no one pays them any heed... 

 

Mithril

[Slave to Darkness]

7 hours ago, appiah5 said:

You are trying to make sense out of a plot device that was invented only to re-sell the same plastic toys to grown up children.

I know I know... I should know better after 30+ years in the hobby. 

[Slave to Darkness]

5 hours ago, mithrilforge said:

A Dishonouring we will go ... 

Everyone Knows the Ancestors were colour Blind so no one pays them any heed... 

 

Mithril

Someone hold by can of ale whilst I show this beardling whose boss!!!!

[TheVoidDragon]

I just realized...are their melee weapons basically lightsabers? As in, they have no physical blade and it's just plasma? The Sword, Axe and Knife are all entirely glowing orange with no real indication of it being a metal blade wrapped in plasma. It could just be that they're red-hot metal but with them being "plasma" weapons i'm not sure.

Edited July 8, 2022 by TheVoidDragon

[silverstu]

6 minutes ago, TheVoidDragon said:

I just realized...are their melee weapons basically lightsabers? As in, they have no physical blade and it's just plasma? The Sword, Axe and Knife are all entirely glowing orange with no real indication of it being a metal blade wrapped in plasma. It could just be that they're red-hot metal but with them being "plasma" weapons i'm not sure.

Yeah could be -they mentioned that "They make substantial use of plasma fields either to augment blades or extend them" 

I'm really interested by the Bezerks - not only what they look like [are there links to slayers] but fluff wise - are they deranged/suicide troops and could this be the darker side of the Votann were they break psychologically ? Possibly they are just CC troops but I think they could add a lot of the flavour of the faction.