Leagues of Votann Initial 1st April 2022 reveal, new lore & articles discussion

[TheVoidDragon]

4 hours ago, Karhedron said:

I agree on the vehicles but the basic troops also don't excite me. The models I like are the HQs and Elites that are properly decorated knotwork, icons and other "dwarfish" imagery. If the whole army had been done with this aesthetic, I would have been seriously tempted. As it stands, my wallet stands firm against temptation (probably just as well).

My thoughts on the Leagues haven't really changed from the initial reveal. A cool idea involving a classic sci-fi vibe, but not enough of the Dwarf side of the aesthetic to make them feel like they do justice to the idea of Space Dwarfs.

What makes it odd is that we have seen the Hearthkyn with just a little more of that Dwarf imagery on them and it makes a huge difference to their feel - some decoration on the Autoch bolter, and a piece of artwork has some on their shoulder pads....but they're decals.

We've seen the Leagues symbol on the Kahl and Champion, there's no reason a small sigil of that couldn't have been put on even the basic units like Grenl Grenlsen has.

[ADragonuFear]

5 hours ago, Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla said:

I don't understand why GW insisted on stressing how ironkin are just like all the rest of kin and how they are treated as equall memebers of the dwarven society only to make them drones/servitors on the tabletop, who are not even mixed into normal units.

Most of the ones being subservient are cogs which are less intelligent. It seems you can use a headswap in the main troop kit to sprinkle some ironkin in there. The one being an ammo bearer for the berserk grenade launcher is a bit weird.

[TheVoidDragon]

5 hours ago, Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla said:

I don't understand why GW insisted on stressing how ironkin are just like all the rest of kin and how they are treated as equall memebers of the dwarven society only to make them drones/servitors on the tabletop, who are not even mixed into normal units.

I really thought they were going for something where they'd just be mixed in amongst units as a normal thing. Like just stick the Ironkin Head on a Einhyr or Thunderkyn because they're equal and just as capable for the most part. But that doesn't seem to be the case now.

[Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla]

1 hour ago, ADragonuFear said:

Most of the ones being subservient are cogs which are less intelligent. It seems you can use a headswap in the main troop kit to sprinkle some ironkin in there. The one being an ammo bearer for the berserk grenade launcher is a bit weird.

Oh, I see now.

[Mogger351]

Free model is 24th onwards, likely gives a release date indication 

[SpaceDwalin]

18 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

Free model is 24th onwards, likely gives a release date indication 

Miniature of the month is nearly over.

[TheVoidDragon]

20 minutes ago, SpaceDwalin said:

Miniature of the month is nearly over.

What do you mean?

[Mogger351]

7 minutes ago, TheVoidDragon said:

What do you mean?

I think that it leaves a 3 week gap of not miniature of the month

[SpaceDwalin]

53 minutes ago, TheVoidDragon said:

What do you mean?

I mean that the month will be nearly over before we get the miniature.

Edited September 1, 2022 by SpaceDwalin

[Malakithe]

12 hours ago, Lord Marshal said:

They look so much better rocking the Terran Dominion scheme.

Its about damn time...

 

[Lord Marshal]

Edited September 3, 2022 by Lord Marshal

[Khornestar]

The best part for me is that now people will be calling beserks berserks while they continue to call berserkers beserkers.

[Lord Marshal]

Just a quick Loremasters Part 2 Summary by yours truly. I think this is going to rattle some bones. I probably missed some stuff.

• Technology that is shared by the Imperium and Leagues such as Volkite are more developed and refined, without the lack of understanding the Mechanicus have.
• Although they share an origin, the Imperium is trapped by superstition and ritual.  
• The Imperium's technology is stagnant, while the Leagues still innovate.
• Another mention of Tau receiving Ion technology from the Tau. The Kin kept the more optimised versions for themselves.
• Tyranids and Orks have caused the Leagues a lot of trouble.
• There were rumours circulating the Imperium that the Tyranids had wiped them out (heh).
• Votann STC technology makes the Mechanicus' Forge Worlds look primitive.
• Every Forge within a Hold is unique, added to over centuries.
• The Votann provide designs, but the Kin innovate and improve on them.
• Some Imperial and Kin technology appears similar, but is usually constructed of different materials and built differently.
• Some shared designs were already so perfect they are identical to those the Imperium has, such as volkite.
• A lot of technology uses materials that can't be found outside the Core.
• 'Dark Star Ore' is can halt all organic and mechanical functions and is mined and shaped with exceptional care.
• Hand Spectral Scanners allow the Kin to ascertain an enemy's location through walls, objectives and the Warp.
• Their teleportation technology is almost flawless and can be used to jump between locations.
   
• The Votann are basically mini-Astronomicons.
• Wayfinder Ironkin equipped with super-cogitators can calculate locations based on their lights.
• They navigate the Warp in short jumps. 
• The speed of the Imperium's warp travel is one of the few ways their technology is beats League's.
• The Kin prefer their way as the time distortion and risk of daemonic incursion is greatly mitigated.
• Their warp drives and Gellar fields are superior. Warp travel is more reliable.
• They can travel within the Imperium without impedance. They can mine wealth and investigate Space Hulks without leaving the Warp.
• These shielding developments are present in the physical realm, with different shields overlapping.
• Compact and efficient, they can be projected from personal generators or over an area.
   
• The Kin are far more practical strip-mining worlds.
• Global magna extraction an tectonic delving allow the harvesting of whole worlds.
• Stellar siphons drain the stars.
• The Kin have no compunctions about tearing open the crust of a world whilst the population is still on it.
• Evacuations can be negotiated.
• If a resistant population is too strong they might decide it's not worth it.
• The Kin view these resources to be theirs by 'right of might'.
• "Luckhas, need keeps, toil earns."
   
• Kin view relationships with other races as essentially "How will this benefit us? Will that benefit outweigh the cost?
• They try not to get clouded by dogma or superstition, though a Grudge may cause them to lose perspective.
• The Tau refer to the Kin as, you guessed it, the Demiurg.
• The ships that appeared in Battlefield Gothic were mercenary ships hired to reinforce their fleets.
• The Kin view the Tau as young and naïve, but they appreciate the value of the Greater Good as it has similarities with their own belief of putting Kin first.
• A continued point of contention is the League's refusal to join the Tau Empire, believing the small fleets they encounter is all that's left of their race following a Tyranid invasion (heheh). The Leagues don't see any point in enlightening them.
   
• The Tyranids have caused an incalculable amount of damage to the Kin and are known as "The Bane."
• They'll devour Kin same as any other organic species, but leave the Votann themselves alone.
• One Votann went mad after it's Hold fought a last stand. The Leagues avoid it as it has a habit of pulling ships off course.
   
• Interactions with the Eldar have been limited, as their arrogance annoys them.
• They avoid interacting with the Dark Eldar and Harlequins.
• The Exodites are more tolerated, unless they happen to be on a potentially lucrative world.
• The Kin are disgusted by Chaos.
• The Necrons consider the Kin to be another upstart race, with some trepidation as the Leagues like to delve deep into planets and have a habit of finding inactive Tombs.
•  The Kin view Necrons with 'shoot on sight' diplomacy.
   
• Orks have long plagued the Core and have been as successful as every other race at exterminating them.
• The dangers of the Core seem to give them little pause. Pirate fleets are a common problem.
• Orks are their most hated foe.
• "A prize for an Ork" is a term used to describe things which are useless to the Kin.
   
• Humanity is viewed the same as any other species - something valuable commerce can occur, other times mercenary work can earn a good reward - but mostly the Imperium is avoided, lest conflict break out. 
• Rogue Traders are happy to trade with the Leagues, though the Kin view their extravagant lifestyles as wasteful. Deals are made with desperate Imperial governors to defend their planets for a fee.
• More zealous elements of the Imperium view them as Xenos, whilst more down to earth humans such as the Guard would see them as Abhumans.
• Various names have been used for the Kin (Squats, Demiurg) and it's impossible to confirm whether these are individual civilisations, Leagues or a mixture. 
• To the Kin, the Adeptus Mechanicus are "rats scurrying over a scrapheap", superstitious tech-shaman who's ignorance is dangerous. They try and avoid them but are swift to wipe them out if it can't be avoided. 
• The Mechanicus are unware of the extent of the League's technology and they will go to great lengths to keep it that way. 
   
• The Kin will leave most denizens of the galaxy alone, or trade, so long as you don't have what they want.
• The Leagues think nothing of taking what they need. 

Edited September 3, 2022 by Lord Marshal

[SpaceDwalin]

15 minutes ago, Lord Marshal said:

There were rumours circulating the Imperium that the Tyranids had wiped them out (heh).

 

16 minutes ago, Lord Marshal said:

the Tau Empire, believing the small fleets they encounter is all that's left of their race following a Tyranid invasion (heheh). The Leagues don't see any point in enlightening them.

I love it. This is brilliant!

[SpaceDwalin]

Seems like your planet getting Nidded of all organics or Squatted of all minerals are equally unappealing...

[TheMawr]

5 hours ago, Lord Marshal said:

Just a quick Loremasters Part 2 Summary by yours truly. I think this is going to rattle some bones. I probably missed some stuff.

• More zealous elements of the Imperium view them as Xenos, whilst more down to earth humans such as the Guard would see them as Abhumans.

I like this, quite a while ago ( I think I was responding to a "what would you change" kind of topic, but like I often do, didnt submit the reply.) I was thinking how much more interesting it would be if some (most?) Abhuman races are in fact debatable and debated in-universe. That different elements in the imperium and galaxy as a whole have different views. ( and keeping it unproven wich one is right.) An assumption that the whole Abhuman moniker, once upon a time was liberally used to assert control and dominance over, in fact, different species (despite a common ancestor being likely.) with evidence on both edges of the scenario ( Navigators being a definite abhuman strain, and in my longer suggestion changing the lore of and using Tzaangor as one that is definitely not, despite the imperium's stance.) but the tabletop ones being in the unknown category ( ratlings, ogryns and squats for example ) as I think this kind of uncertainity gives perfect resources for narrative elements.

[INKS]

No, I don't need this army. I don't need this army. Yes they look good painted up as TMNT, but no I don't need this army. when does it go up for sale? lol

[Mogger351]

33 minutes ago, INKS said:

No, I don't need this army. I don't need this army. Yes they look good painted up as TMNT, but no I don't need this army. when does it go up for sale? lol

Current theories are preorder next week for a 2 week preorder and then release on the 24th.

[INKS]

1 hour ago, Mogger351 said:

Current theories are preorder next week for a 2 week preorder and then release on the 24th.

The more I hear about them the more I want a TMNT force of them. (paint wise) So so tempting. It's a new faction and all, it's exciting. I don't think it'll be good to run 3 of those land fortresses and yet... I want to! haha

[Lord_Ikka]

4 minutes ago, INKS said:

The more I hear about them the more I want a TMNT force of them. (paint wise) So so tempting. It's a new faction and all, it's exciting. I don't think it'll be good to run 3 of those land fortresses and yet... I want to! haha

One Land Fortress, four Sagituars- Splinter and the Boys, with color coordinated squads inside.

[INKS]

1 hour ago, Lord_Ikka said:

One Land Fortress, four Sagituars- Splinter and the Boys, with color coordinated squads inside.

HECK YEAH!!! This is a gold idea. GOLD!

[Kastor Krieg]

On 9/3/2022 at 4:05 PM, Lord Marshal said:

Just a quick Loremasters Part 2 Summary by yours truly. I think this is going to rattle some bones. I probably missed some stuff.

• Technology that is shared by the Imperium and Leagues such as Volkite are more developed and refined, without the lack of understanding the Mechanicus have.
• Votann STC technology makes the Mechanicus' Forge Worlds look primitive.
• Hand Spectral Scanners allow the Kin to ascertain an enemy's location through walls, objectives and the Warp.
• Their teleportation technology is almost flawless and can be used to jump between locations.
   
• The Votann are basically mini-Astronomicons.
• Their warp drives and Gellar fields are superior. Warp travel is more reliable.
• They can travel within the Imperium without impedance. They can mine wealth and investigate Space Hulks without leaving the Warp.
• These shielding developments are present in the physical realm, with different shields overlapping.
• Compact and efficient, they can be projected from personal generators or over an area.
   
• Global magna extraction an tectonic delving allow the harvesting of whole worlds.
• Stellar siphons drain the stars.
• The Kin have no compunctions about tearing open the crust of a world whilst the population is still on it.

These are utter power creep bull:cuss:. 

One of the core setting concepts, holy grails of Dark Age of Technology, the STC? Oh, we have those and better and more and less primitive.

The Warp, another core setting concept? Mere inconvenience, we can look into it, travel through it safer and more reliably, our Geller fields are better and we miniaturized the technology so that we can protect personnel from the Warp just as easily as ships.

The core setting feature of Humanity, the Astronomicon? Oh, we have dozens of those, yeah. But they're also better and the source of our technology.

The core setting feature that the threat level of Old God wars, the C'tan and so on, feeding on stars themselves? Puny humanity, we're literally a full step above you on the Kardashev scale, we siphon out star energy on the regular and ripping crust out of an occupied planet is like eating a cookie.

The models are an acquired taste, the rules are downright broken and invalidate entire factions and their gimmicks, but this lore?
This lore is one of the most egregious idiotisms of modern Games Workshop.

Edited September 5, 2022 by Captain Idaho
Specific harsh language removed.

[Lord Marshal]

22 hours ago, Kastor Krieg said:

These are utter power creep bull:cuss:. 

One of the core setting concepts, holy grails of Dark Age of Technology, the STC? Oh, we have those and better and more and less primitive.

The Warp, another core setting concept? Mere inconvenience, we can look into it, travel through it safer and more reliably, our Geller fields are better and we miniaturized the technology so that we can protect personnel from the Warp just as easily as ships.

The core setting feature of Humanity, the Astronomicon? Oh, we have dozens of those, yeah. But they're also better and the source of our technology.

The core setting feature that the threat level of Old God wars, the C'tan and so on, feeding on stars themselves? Puny humanity, we're literally a full step above you on the Kardashev scale, we siphon out star energy on the regular and ripping crust out of an occupied planet is like eating a cookie.

. The models are an acquired taste, the rules are downright broken and invalidate entire factions and their gimmicks, but this lore?
This lore is one of the most egregious idiotisms of modern Games Workshop.

To be fair, having better technology isn't unique to the Votann. Pretty much everybody does it better than the Imperium, side from maybe the Orks. The Eldar have the Webway, the Tau are- the Tau, the Necrons have always been written to have more advanced technology than pretty much everybody. The Horus Heresy books gives examples of civilisations which had technology more advanced than the Imperium's - much of which was destroyed because the Mechanicum would have a hissy fit if they didn't.

The Votann acting as mini-Astronomicons doesn't make them better, since the feature of the Astronomicon is that it can be seen pretty much anywhere in the galaxy as a central beacon screaming "This Way Lies Terra", whilst the Leagues seem to need to lock on to a relatively local-ish Votann as a source, which causes problems if it's destroyed or corrupted. The Tau have been making safe FTL jumps since Day 1, the Votann aren't much different aside from still exposing themselves to the dangers of the Warp (albeit far less than the Imperium).

The Imperium/Mechanicus being held back by their religious dogma has been a thing for a long time, to the point the Dark Mechanicum even exists because so many of them wanted to do what the Votann do and innovate/improve upon existing technology. The tragedy of the Imperium and the Horus Heresy is that they COULD have what the Votann have, on a galactic-wide scale and perhaps even better, but that will never happen because it's a rotting behemoth stuck in the past.

Although the lore does read a strong "we're better than you" without many obvious drawbacks or blatant grimdark flaws outside of "we will happily kill anyone for their stuff" which is hardly a unique trait. It's probably not unreasonable to assume a lot of this is done as a sales pitch to get people to buy into "the bestist faction ever!!!" and the codex will delve a lot more into the downsides of the Leagues. Notice how they've not really touched on the failings of the Ancestor Cores since that initial article, for example.

Edited September 5, 2022 by Captain Idaho
Reference to amended post

[TheVoidDragon]

22 minutes ago, Kastor Krieg said:

One of the core setting concepts, holy grails of Dark Age of Technology, the STC? Oh, we have those and better and more and less primitive.
 

Someone please explain how this it in any way a problem that another group has better tech than the Mechanicus?

The Mechanicus and the Imperium are meant to be backwards. They've regressed technologically and are now stagnant for the most part, having lost so much knowledge and scientific understanding to the point that even the concept of "learning" something themselves is all but gone. They're a techno-cult desperately searching for relics from a "better" time because the believe the past will solve those problems for them. They're desperate, corrupt and not in any way meant to be sane or rational.

Another group who isn't beholden to that nonsensical dogma and superstition, who hasn't made as so many baffling choices as the Imperium, having a better understanding and retained more of their DAoT tech shouldn't be a surprise at all. It would be strange if they somehow had worse tech.

Not to mention being more advanced is just how they've always been from their first introduction, as the original squats were also a higher-tech faction.

[redmapa]

Votann are essentially a snapshot of DAoT humanity so its only a matter of time before their cores become too insane to work just like it happened to the res of humanity in 40k and when that happens they won't look to the mechanicum with such disdain. I don't see a clash of themes between this faction and the setting when their progress and science is on the course of total collapse, its a false hope.

Its also worth mentioning that rays of hope and light only makes the darkness look darker, if everything is bad then its all monotone and boring so factions like Tau and Votann add some needed variety without changing the overall theme of the setting. The tau are a speck of dust and the Votann will repeat humanitys error with AI.