A Case for Storm Guardians.

[Prot]

I can already here the collective groan, and see your eyes rolling back in your head as you read the title of this thread, but... bear with me!

 

I am struggling mightily with my Eldar. I honestly don't believe I've struggled to win this much with any army I own/play in all of 9th so far (and that definitely includes Necrons).

 

To be fair I outright refuse to play any Harliequins, and I know they are pushing hard in the competitive field. I do play in a competitive environment, but it is very fair, and the people are great.

 

Now that we have that out of the way, one of the (many?) frustrations I am having is our troops. Long story short, they are doing almost zero damage out put, and they are disappearing faster than a fart in a wind storm.

 

Again, I realize in competitive markets the Guardians aren't seeing the tables, and most likely, there isn't a lot of merit to using the Battalion, and if you do, it's likely got min Ranger troop selections.

 

So at this point, you may be asking yourself, why is this bantering fool even considering Storm Guardians....

 

Good point. I've always been a player geared towards background, and fluff and try to take that as far as I can, in the most competitive of circumstances. And in my opinion, most Eldar lists SHOULD have some form of Guardians, even in a limited capacity.

 

So far in my last 10 or so games, I have used 2 x 10 man Guardian squads. With moderate terrain, I am finding I cannot really kill anything that doesn't simply run up to me in weak armour, and low to moderate Toughness.

 

I have gone through phases of giving them a Brightlance to EML to anti-infantry, and then realizing they die far too fast. Phases of trying to buff them but they have the distinction of being not worth the buffs in most cases.

 

I play against SoB a lot too, and I actually believe this unit is worse than a SoB troop with a bolter. Sure, T3 as well, but the 3+ save, in cover even, makes a huge difference. Not too mention they can shoot from 24" (potentially longer) compared to 18".

 

Every time I need to make a push back, or a stand, this is the unit that dies first, and most often with little to no damage inflicted. Sure there are outliers like the time I wasted a GSC squad of t-shirt wearing vagabonds that failed their charge, but that is not the norm.

 

So I've been really put off by the Guardians. In part, I realize the lack of taking down a single mode in my last 3 games (Custodes/Custodes/Deathguard) is part of it, but also I find I'm actually charging them into something that's typically gone horribly wrong in my zone.

 

(This happens more than you think):

- Unit flies over/around a building, (Think Blightdrone/Custodes bikes/etc), your Guardians shoot, and do nothing.

- I have one turn to resolve this issue or it potentially guts my back end, and leaves too much room for his other Deep strikers.... this could lead to the death of my HQ's, and/or Weapons Platforms.

- Desperations sets in, I need one turn to counter - I send the starving artists in to the fray, 80% of them die, little to no damage is done, and I have to blow 2 CP to save them.

 

So I've had enough of this. The range is too short, I want the body count to keep junk from coming in my side of the board, and the rest of my army is moving forward usually.

 

Long story short, I believe a 10 man Storm Guardian squad will:

1. Be just as useless in the shooting phase

2. Be able to block out just as effectively in my zone.

3. Be -slightly- more resilient  with the Serpent Scale Platform (5++ vs ranged, and mini-Transhuman)

4. End up slightly less expensive (~15 points in my case).

5. When that turn comes that I inevitably must throw something at the wall to keep it from breaking in at least the Storm Guardians have a better chance of actually injuring something.

 

That's my plan. I want to take one squad like this, and the others can remain Defenders. If you've tried something like this, or have a different idea, please chime in!

 

 

 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I was going to take Stormies as at least one Troop slots, but I run Altansar so if I can deliver them I'll benefit from the extra point of AP.  They'll definitely need Doom to do much damage though.

 

Let me know how it goes for you.

[The Yncarne]

I did do a storm guardian squad recently because they are inexpensive and the serpent shield should help. I'm also considering running Children of Morai-Heg and Hail of Doom to maximize the inevitable casualties. I don't expect any of the craft world troops to do more than cause [edit: me] worry.

 

I think for my next guardian squad the idea is to go defender and pair them with dire avenger squads in wave serpents. I'll run two (because this is 40k) with the intent to rely on the avengers and keep the guardians around for objective secured. I'll hope some ranger squads can hold objectives in my deployment zone and potentially use wind riders to limit enemy movement.

 

Its all theory hammer for me at this point.

Edited April 4, 2022 by The Blood Raven

[Prot]

 

. I don't expect any of the craft world troops to do more than cause worry.

 

For me or my opponent? Lol

 

seriously though I think dire avengers aren’t really worth it. I think we really need to use oir points for some nasty hard hitting units. But the Storm Guardians do have some potential for the way I am playing my troops. I really am seeing such a minor return on the Defenders, that I’m thinking this is the way to defend my back against assault, or at least slow it down. And yea, at the right time, perhaps Doom makes a difference…. I mean that last game I needed 2-3 wounds against the Blight drone so badly… I believe the storm guardians may have done it. 

[Malaconia]

Death Guard and Custodes are resilient. Do you think Guardian Defenders could work better against something like SM or AdMech? I don't play that competitively, meaning people I play with use whatever armies they have, not necessarily what is best at the moment. But everyone plays to win.

 

My army is Ulthwé with a lot of Wraithguards, Wraithlords, some Windriders, Vyper, Warwalkers and a Night Spinner. No aspect warriors. No webway gate so far. I have a couple of squads of Rangers and one squad of so far unbuilt Guardians. I need a troop option to hold backfield objectives. I have no idea how to build the Guardians. Storm Guardians fit the original Ulthwé lore though, so there is that.

 

What kind of load out would you use for Storm Guardians which have the intention of just sitting on an objective and hoping for best? Cheap with no upgrades, serpent shield for survivability or a couple of fusion guns too, just in case.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Malaconia

[The Yncarne]

I run two flamers so I can deter overwatch from chaff and perhaps kill more than a single model before being removed themselves. 

[Tyriks]

I don't know. If 4/1/1 can't hurt the enemy, why would 3/1/1? I love the models so I'll definitely make a squad eventually but I just don't see it right now.

 

When I bring Guardian Defenders I've been leaving the platform at home. That keeps them cheap enough that I don't feel as bad when they get wiped out. I haven't used my Rangers yet because they're half painted and I want to finish them and seal them first, so I can't compare them. But my Defenders have been about as good as I need them to be so far.

[9x19 Parabellum]

I havent played a game yet but are you guys putting them in Serpents? Deploying them out of LOS?  Are you battle focusing them back out of LoS after they shoot?  (or at least into cover?).

 

Storm Guardians look like they can be kitted out to do some damage, but only in shooting.  That, of course, defeats the purpose and makes them more expensive, but 2 flamers, 2 fusion guns and a bunch of chainswords seems like a tasty little assault squad to throw in Wave Serpent and push a midfield objective.  Power Swords seem wasted on a 1 str3 attack model.

 

I'm excited to try both as I come from playing Marines and 8-9 points for troops makes me giddy.

[Karhedron]

I'm excited to try both as I come from playing Marines and 8-9 points for troops makes me giddy.

It is a double-edged sword. Cheap is good but they are also fragile and either short-ranged (Guardians) or low on damage output (Rangers). Guardians cost a minimum of 80 points for a squad before upgrades. I rather feel that 90-100 points of Marines will at least give you Objective holders that don't die to a stiff breeze.

 

I am still brainstorming how I want to go forward but I am currently thinking Patrol + Vanguard detachments might be the way to go. A Battalion nets me 3 extra CPs but requires an extra 160-200 points being spent on ballast.

[9x19 Parabellum]

Having my BT get their butts whooped by Custodes and Tau lately, there's no difference between T3 and T4 when you're getting hit at Str 5.   Only thing that stands up Marines is Transhuman, and that's only 1x per phase and it's CP hungry.

[Tyriks]

Has anyone actually used them yet? I'll be thrilled if they do turn out to be useful

[Toldavf]

Storm guardians are hot garbage. Defenders are the way to go every time. A support weapon will let them stand off and plink from cover, If they need to advance there is no reason they shouldn't maul sisters in a fire fight in even numbers. Your threat range is between 25" and 30" (you advance with no penalty).

I think they are a great assisting unit and naturally benefit from buffs and debuffs (doom, jinx, sources of rerolls or +1 to hit in Ulthwé).

With the hail of doom craftworld trait they even get rending which is silly, 20 man blob vs custodies without any buffs gets 10 wounds at -3ap and 4 more at -1 (that would drop a dreadnought) that translates to a bike or 2 regular guards dead. 

Another way of looking at it both units can role 3 attack dice over 2 phases. Defenders roll 2 at strength 4, one at 3, and for storms its the inverse 2, at 3 one at 4, now true the defender has no ap on its melee but the storm has only half the chance of procing blade storm so its evenish. 

 

If you want a melee unit for around the same cost take 5 scorpions, go away right now and compare the attack stats and points of each unit, sure they aren't troops and they are less warm bodies but look at the difference in offense its blinding. 

 

 

[Wraithwing]

I've got a second box of Guardians waiting to be built, and I really really want to build them as Storm Guardians, because they look so cool. 

 

However, as many have said, I just can't justify it when Defenders just seem to do a better job. 

 

Shuriken Catapults with -3 AP on a 6 to wound are still very very good, even if you are facing slightly tougher opponents. 

[Prot]

I actually have not found defender Guardians to be better than storm guardians.  In fact in some ways they are worse. But let’s be honest if you’re playing hyper competitive, there isn’t going to be any of either unit in your list. They all need a point reduction to start with. 
 

All of the very strong Aeldari lists are actually mostly constructed with Harlequin units, so I consider our conversation all relative to the fact we’re trying to have fun, but I admit in my case the armies I’m facing really treat them as a joke. 
 

Part of why is I’m considering the storms is the fact I find Guardians too short ranged. Often getting  them in range means you are inevitably setting up a trade scenario which I can’t seem to capitalize on. Of course you can buff/debuff, but in most cases the buffs are better spent elsewhere. 
 

Where I’ve had my guardians shine is in the (rare) case that the opponent will expose T3 units in mass to you.  That’s where they can pick up some good trades. 
 

otherwise, I think they seem best off staying out of LoS, deep in my zone to prevent deep strikers from threatening my HQs and the indirect fire coming from the artillery. 
 

so literally I think Storm Guardians might be better suited to that because you (I) won’t be tempted to expose them to longer ranged fire by trying to get that heavy weapon shot in. Plus the Storms will get a save from the shield, and in the case of Death guard i won’t be getting wounded on 2’s by bolters,etc. The end result is to get the large blocking unit in a safe position. 
 

at the end of the day it would be ideal in my mind to be able to field 2 Defender Guardian units (playing slightly higher) and Storms somewhere in between. 3 such Guardian units would be great if I could get it working!

[frostbite]

Out of interest, what else do you run in your list?

 

I have to be honest, I don't see how Storm Guardians are useful in almost any given Craftworld list. Their damage output is non-existant and I think the Serpent Scale Shield is a bit of a trap option. On paper it increases their survivability, sure, but in practice I don't think it makes any real difference against the kind of weapons that most people would use against Guardians. Strength 3,4, and 5 weapons are unaffected by the wound roll restriction and in most cases these guns only have 0 or-1 ap anyway, so the invulnerable save is moot. In niche cases, like Hot-shot lasguns or similar, then sure, it helps. But honestly, if my opponent is shooting Guardians with the kind of firepower where the Serpent Scale Shield would make a difference, and at not my Aspect Warriors or Wraith Constructs or Jetbikes etc, then I'm happy to make that trade. Oh, and it doesn't work in melee, the Storm Guardian's ostensible 'strong suit'.

Edited April 6, 2022 by frostbite

[MithrilForge]

I see all the points but it seems to be Theory Hammer at the moment as no one has actually put storm's into their list and tested it out...   

I have been toying with the idea of using Storms as backfield campers (i know it sounds silly but it blocks deep strikers and it can camp objectives, in theory the shield could be helpful to this, also those stronger short range weapons may help in holding back an enemy unit until help arrives  ).

all speculation of course but they are a good looking unit painting wise (40K...it's not all about unit efficiency....is it ?... )  

I may be the minority here in this as my games are with friends and are not competitive based at all - we're there to have fun primarily with units that look cool, probably the polar opposite of what this topic was posted for... but as a casual gamers perspective it looks like a fun auto include.

 

Cheers, Mithril 

[Kallas]

I see all the points but it seems to be Theory Hammer at the moment as no one has actually put storm's into their list and tested it out...   

 

That's because Storm Guardians just aren't good. People are talking about how they don't do well into almost anything worthwhile, and how they have basically no value beyond their low cost, because that's just what it is.

 

Taking Storm Guardians is, competitively, a bad choice for anything beyond sitting on a rear objective out of line of sight for the entire game.

 

(40K...it's not all about unit efficiency....is it ?... )  

I may be the minority here in this as my games are with friends and are not competitive based at all - we're there to have fun primarily with units that look cool, probably the polar opposite of what this topic was posted for... but as a casual gamers perspective it looks like a fun auto include.

 

Right, if you want to use your models that are not competitively effective, then do that.

 

The point of the thread, it seems, is more about how effective and competitive the unit is on the battlefield (which is, quite simply, "not"). If someone wants to use models because they like the models then there's simply no discussion because that's entirely subjective and there's no reason to dissuade someone from doing that.

 

But the argument/discussion is whether they are useful and (at least a little bit) competitive with other options. Which is like 99% a big no.

[Dr. Clock]

I definitely respect the intent, Prot... But my solution is still 2x5 rangers and 1x15 defenders with -1CP on a guardian bomb Webway strike. 30 shuriken shots will leave a mark on most things even without psychic support, and 15 bodies out of deepstrike lets you ensure ideal targets for them and push enemy lines in just the right place on turn 3 or so when they've extended. They are a late game capture/harassment piece for me, and doubled up with 5 Spiders and a skyrunner caster or 2, they give you lots of options.

 

Backfield camping can be accomplished well enough by Rangers and dedicated blasters like scatter bikes, prisms or the odd WLord... I know Rangers don't deal 'big damage', but they can be indispensable in stripping wounds from characters and monsters before they hit our lines... and if the enemy stays defensive to keep the mortal wounds at bay, then they've already done their job in bottling them up for a turn or two.

 

That being said, storm guardians are cool, so no shame in using them certainly... to my mind they can be a 'foundation' to build on with other damage dealers since their biggest virtue is 'existing in a place that's annoying'.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

[MithrilForge]

 

I see all the points but it seems to be Theory Hammer at the moment as no one has actually put storm's into their list and tested it out...   

 

That's because Storm Guardians just aren't good. People are talking about how they don't do well into almost anything worthwhile, and how they have basically no value beyond their low cost, because that's just what it is.

 

Taking Storm Guardians is, competitively, a bad choice for anything beyond sitting on a rear objective out of line of sight for the entire game.

 

(40K...it's not all about unit efficiency....is it ?... )  

I may be the minority here in this as my games are with friends and are not competitive based at all - we're there to have fun primarily with units that look cool, probably the polar opposite of what this topic was posted for... but as a casual gamers perspective it looks like a fun auto include.

 

Right, if you want to use your models that are not competitively effective, then do that.

 

The point of the thread, it seems, is more about how effective and competitive the unit is on the battlefield (which is, quite simply, "not"). If someone wants to use models because they like the models then there's simply no discussion because that's entirely subjective and there's no reason to dissuade someone from doing that.

 

But the argument/discussion is whether they are useful and (at least a little bit) competitive with other options. Which is like 99% a big no.

 

 

@ Kallas -

I guess you have your view... which is rather negative, And I didn't see any point where Prot said "please only super competitive players respond to this",

there are a great percentage of players out there that actually have fun games with cool models, more probably than Meta chasers or people that play for sheep stations... 

you came across a bit heavy and condescending there in your simple cancellation of Storm guardians, unlike Dr Clock who seemed very balanced in his response...

I know which one of you i'd prefer to play a game against... 

 

Good Luck Prot if you ever use storm Guardians... 

 

Mithril

Edited April 8, 2022 by mithrilforge

[Prot]

Again if I were playing only to win, there wouldn’t be a single guardian in my list. The topic is, as stated, a case for using them. I will say one thing … I am playing a lot of resilient armies lately, and the defender guardians have been utterly useless.  In fact the “trap” here is the weapon platform. In these match ups, it is tempting to expose the entire squad unnecessarily just to squeeze off that shot. 
 

I have the extra box of Guardians, so I’m giving it a try. And in the future if GW accidentally makes them usable, I’ll have a squad painted up!  In the meantime though with the volume of games under my belt, no one’s convincing me that the defender variant is just a wonderful alternative.  That being said I don’t see SoB that much at all in my meta, and the same goes for cultist type models. The best moment I’ve had with Defenders was against Genestealer Cult. 

[9x19 Parabellum]

 

I have the extra box of Guardians, so I’m giving it a try. And in the future if GW accidentally makes them usable, I’ll have a squad painted up!  In the meantime though with the volume of games under my belt, no one’s convincing me that the defender variant is just a wonderful alternative.  That being said I don’t see SoB that much at all in my meta, and the same goes for cultist type models. The best moment I’ve had with Defenders was against Genestealer Cult. 

 

If you have a hard time finding a use for Guardians, then the difficulty is even moreso for SoB.  They cost 2-3 more points that guardians and are just about as resilient....but do even less damage if that's possible. 

 

So what's the play then? 3x5 Rangers?  Or Vanguard detachment and ingore the extra CP?

[Karhedron]

So what's the play then? 3x5 Rangers?  Or Vanguard detachment and ingore the extra CP?

If you are going for competitive play then I think you are on the right lines. Either 3x5 Rangers if you really want to run a Battalion or Patrol + Vanguard and accept that you are paying 3CPs to save a few hundred points of dead weight.

 

1 Troop unit is still worth taking IMHO, either a Ranger squad for Objective camping or a 20-man Guardian bomb hiding in the webway. Bring them on T3 when the board is a bit clearer to nuke a squad off an Objective on a flank and then try to hunker down for the rest of the battle.

[Kallas]

@ Kallas -

I guess you have your view... which is rather negative, And I didn't see any point where Prot said "please only super competitive players respond to this",

 

And I didn't say that there's no reason to use them: use them if you want to use them, but don't expect them to make any kind of notable impact beyond being an objective holder.

 

You seemed to bash theorycrafting earlier: have you gotten any play time in with Storm Guardians? What has their performance been like? Beyond exceptional dice rolls, have the achieved anything noteworthy? Are there any surprise match ups where they have some kind of undiscovered value?

 

there are a great percentage of players out there that actually have fun games with cool models, more probably than Meta chasers or people that play for sheep stations... 

you came across a bit heavy and condescending there in your simple cancellation of Storm guardians, unlike Dr Clock who seemed very balanced in his response...

I know which one of you i'd prefer to play a game against... 

 

I own and use 3 Land Raiders and 2 Stormhawk Interceptors. They are all absolutely garbage from a competitive point of view. I still play them, and I still love them; but I don't delude myself into thinking that they will do anywhere near their points cost would suggest, or that they would be anywhere near as effective as other options.

 

You use the terms meta chaser and "people that play for sheep stations" (??) - but you have no indication of anything like that beyond my dismissal of a unit that the OP of the thread agrees is pretty subpar in terms of in-game capabilities.

 

As for coming across "a bit heavy and condescending" - sure, I came on heavy, because there just isn't much point beating around the bush. Storm Guardians are not a strong unit, they are extremely fragile, their damage output is laughable and any buffs going their way would be far, far better spent on almost any other applicable unit. As for condescending, this is the internet, so I can only assume that this is just you reading more into my statements than is there.

 

Storm Guardians are not a strong unit, but someone wanting to use their models has every right to do that and have fun. That's the end of that discussion, really, which is the point I made at the end of my previous post: if you're not talking about how to get value out of them because you just want to use whatever you want and don't care about competitiveness (ie, you're not playing to try and win any given game, you just want to roll dice) then there's nothing to really say - you'll use however many models you have that you want to use.

 

If you are talking about how to get (in-game gameplay) value out of Storm Guardians in any competitive sense, then the answer is, essentially, minimise the amount you spend on them. Take small units for out-of-LOS objective holding or not at all.

[TrawlingCleaner]

Storm guardians used to have the perk of being a minimum 8 man unit, making them the cheapest troops unit we had(if I remember correctly they were 56 pts?). You could take a minimum unit and have them run around in your backline holding objectives, screening or doing actions. At worst you could throw them forwards with other targets, get them to do actions and hope they don't get shot.

 

Their new configuration has them as the 2nd cheapest troops unit (not counting Corsairs) at 80 points. I still think they somewhat still have a place in holding back objectives, actions and screening out the rear of your deployment. I think the last point is the important one as Eldar are notoriously fast, we tend to give up a lot of ground in our own deployment. Having a throw away unit to do actions and hold your backlines is handy.

 

The Serpent shield is definitely a trap in my opinion, unless you're looking to run more than 10 Storm Guardians. The main reason for this is that the weapons that want to target Storm guardians are more than likely blast. If you're running 11-20 in a unit, you should definitely take the shield to keep them alive longer.

 

With the 'nid codex on the way, I think they have more of a place due to a higher abundance of T3 although they would definitely need to strike first.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

We're all considering only the defensive benefit if the Serpent Scale Plaform (SSP). It dies have an offensive/support role though-- it can be used with the Shield Discharge stratagem.

 

"But IFF, you devilishly handsome and brutally logical thinker," you say, "if you use it then the Guardians don't get the defensive buffs anymore." That's fine. They're not fantastic buffs anyway, right? It's a "trap option," right? It only has a 12" range and if you're that close to the enemy then you're probably going to be charged anyway.

 

But here's where the support role comes in: the unit hit by the Discharge is the affected unit, regardless of who is actually in CC with them. You can deny Overwatch to a Tau unit for example and then charge not with the Stormies but with Shining Spears or Striking Scorpions instead. You can even use the Discharge strat against an enemy already engaged in CC to apply the -1 to their hit rolls. And because that Storm squad is probably toast in a turn or two, there's no great drawback to losing the shields buffs.