A Case for Storm Guardians.

[Prot]

 

 

I have the extra box of Guardians, so I’m giving it a try. And in the future if GW accidentally makes them usable, I’ll have a squad painted up!  In the meantime though with the volume of games under my belt, no one’s convincing me that the defender variant is just a wonderful alternative.  That being said I don’t see SoB that much at all in my meta, and the same goes for cultist type models. The best moment I’ve had with Defenders was against Genestealer Cult. 

 

If you have a hard time finding a use for Guardians, then the difficulty is even moreso for SoB.  They cost 2-3 more points that guardians and are just about as resilient....but do even less damage if that's possible. 

 

So what's the play then? 3x5 Rangers?  Or Vanguard detachment and ingore the extra CP?

 

 

 

- Well I play a lot against SoB, and there is something I do like about their troops a little bit more; they have better range, and they have a 3+ save. No, it's not great, but I think the 18" is really something that bugs me about such a fragile unit.  But it's splitting hairs.... both go down to a sneeze. I just hate the 4+ becoming a 5+ against marines and at the end of the day I find exposing them to get that 18" shot means they're dead in a lot of situations.

 

- 3 x 5 Rangers if you want to use all your extra slots for heavy/fast/etc because eldar can do that. But if you're happy with Patrols I'm seeing a lot of competitive armies just avoiding troops as much as possible and getting Obsec elsewhere.

 

 

@ Kallas -

I guess you have your view... which is rather negative, And I didn't see any point where Prot said "please only super competitive players respond to this",

 

And I didn't say that there's no reason to use them: use them if you want to use them, but don't expect them to make any kind of notable impact beyond being an objective holder.

 

You seemed to bash theorycrafting earlier: have you gotten any play time in with Storm Guardians? What has their performance been like? Beyond exceptional dice rolls, have the achieved anything noteworthy? Are there any surprise match ups where they have some kind of undiscovered value?

 

there are a great percentage of players out there that actually have fun games with cool models, more probably than Meta chasers or people that play for sheep stations... 

you came across a bit heavy and condescending there in your simple cancellation of Storm guardians, unlike Dr Clock who seemed very balanced in his response...

I know which one of you i'd prefer to play a game against... 

 

I own and use 3 Land Raiders and 2 Stormhawk Interceptors. They are all absolutely garbage from a competitive point of view. I still play them, and I still love them; but I don't delude myself into thinking that they will do anywhere near their points cost would suggest, or that they would be anywhere near as effective as other options.

 

 

As for coming across "a bit heavy and condescending" - sure, I came on heavy, because there just isn't much point beating around the bush. Storm Guardians are not a strong unit, they are extremely fragile, their damage output is laughable and any buffs going their way would be far, far better spent on almost any other applicable unit. As for condescending, this is the internet, so I can only assume that this is just you reading more into my statements than is there.

 

 

 

Guys, let's try to just have a healthy debate here. Who really cares? I mean the bitter truth is our troops, for being a brand new codex, largely stink. 

 

For myself, it's disheartening because I always prefer to use a large section of an army's troops... it's just how I like to play. I've never been one of those guys with a zillion patrols and although I often play competitive games, it's about trying to make our playstyle fit, even if it's awkward.

 

In this case I have a third box of new Guardians. I'm trying to get them ready for the vow we have going in the forum. I really don't think any form of guardian is 'okay'. If I'm blunt, my experience has been- they are terrible. (especially for a brand new codex). The killy capacity, and volume of firepower new codexes put out make these guys almost 'terrible' in my experience. A lot of Necron players complained when we started seeing stuff like Admech come out with their troops, but we've gone even further down that path with Tau, and it looks like Nids too.

 

So back to square one.... all I'm trying to do is make use out of a third box, and the 'case I am making'... is Defenders aren't really doing a darn thing for me. Maybe a cheap unit of Storms, doing essentially the same job, but with a 5++ (don't necessarily have to hide in ruins) and can't be wounded on a 2+, -MIGHT- be a good alternative.

 

I was supposed to have a game with them last night but the group had to cancel. I'll let you guys know if it was a good idea, or just more starving artists, dying in droves! 

 

Please keep the debate respectful! 

[9x19 Parabellum]

I'm with you, Prot. I like using an army's troop choices, but it's always so tough when they are crap.  I've always felt armies should look/feel like a pyramid in terms of their composition...the base of the pyramid is vanilla troops, with elites and heavies in the middle of the pyrmaid and HQ's at the very top, represneting the small portion of the pyramid by volume.  I just finished a unit of Guardians and they look so cool, I want more, but it's tough to justify.

[USNCenturion]

I find them durable with serpent shied as Iyanden.

[9x19 Parabellum]

So i've played a total of 4 games using my Aledari army.  Keep in mind these are the only 4 games I've played with Aledari.  I lost 3 of them (to Tau, pre-nerf...so....there's that) and I won my 4th game against Necrons. 

 

In all 4 games, and particularly in my 4th game against Necrons, I thought my Guardians (regular, not storm) were really great and did some work.  I'm loving the Hail of Doom far flung craftworld trait, and as soon as I get more wave serpents it's going to be guardians and dire avengers.  Oh btw, I was hot on Hail of Doom before Armour of Contempt, but now proccing the -3 AP on Shurikens is almost required if you're going to take them since -1 ap is as good as 0.

Edited April 17, 2022 by 9x19 Parabellum

[Prot]

We're all considering only the defensive benefit if the Serpent Scale Plaform (SSP). It dies have an offensive/support role though-- it can be used with the Shield Discharge stratagem.

 

"But IFF, you devilishly handsome and brutally logical thinker," you say, "if you use it then the Guardians don't get the defensive buffs anymore." That's fine. They're not fantastic buffs anyway, right? It's a "trap option," right? It only has a 12" range and if you're that close to the enemy then you're probably going to be charged anyway.

 

But here's where the support role comes in: the unit hit by the Discharge is the affected unit, regardless of who is actually in CC with them. You can deny Overwatch to a Tau unit for example and then charge not with the Stormies but with Shining Spears or Striking Scorpions instead. You can even use the Discharge strat against an enemy already engaged in CC to apply the -1 to their hit rolls. And because that Storm squad is probably toast in a turn or two, there's no great drawback to losing the shields buffs.

 

How dare you add actual thought and strategy to my simpleton-like desire to field new models! 

 

Good stuff though, really a lot deeper than I was putting into my considerations, but it goes to show you there are some good ideas imbedded in the usage of the squads, and not necessarily the raw stats. 

 

Right now, I'm still bothered by our troops. It might just be -my playstyle- and what I like to see from my troops. (I've never been a 'use the minimum' and throw them away kind of player.)

 

At the risk of this getting off topic, I will add the new rules for marine armour hurts the troops even more so.

Edited April 17, 2022 by Prot

[Iron Father Ferrum]

The changes hurt Guardians of both stripes, for sure.  They actually help Rangers a bit though because now that all kinds of Bodyguard rules are just "Slightly Better Look Out Sir," they can ignore those rules.

[Paladin777]

Right now, I'm still bothered by our troops. It might just be -my playstyle- and what I like to see from my troops. (I've never been a 'use the minimum' and throw them away kind of player.)

To me it seems like moving dire avengers away from being troops was a weird choice fluff-wise. Other than Ulthwé, guardians aren't really supposed to be soldiers as much as conscripts, filling in the gaps in the actual rank and file of aspect warriors, and really only when necessary.

 

So to me it seems like taking MSU guardians, from a fluff perspective, actually makes a lot of sense!

 

It's almost like the quote from the movie 300: Brave amateurs... they do their part.

Edited May 11, 2022 by Paladin777