Dataslate Changes: Let's Discuss!

[9x19 Parabellum]

-so all Adepta Sororitas units worsen enemy AP by 1. Ok cool. (does not apply to Sacrosancts)

-Bodyguard completely overhauled to allow "look out sir" rule for units with less than 3 models.

-Gain 2 miracle dice per turn now (one at beginning of each round)

-Cannot reroll wounds against Valorous Heart (keeps 5+ shrug vs. mortal wounds but loses AP reduction abilities)

 

So...Celestian Sacrosancts have directly or indirectly take 3 levels of nerfs now: Points hike, losing out on Armour of Contempt and Bodyguard being nerfed.  Are they still usable? I think so but would like to see them go back down to 14 pts.

 

Let's discuss the rest.  2 miracle dice per turn (yummy) and worsen AP by 1....sisters in cover could really hang around for a bit.

 

Shield of Faith buffing builds seem to now be a thing of the past as you have to really commit to (and get lucky) in order to make it work in such a way that it works out better for you than basic armor saves.

Edited April 14, 2022 by 9x19 Parabellum

[Kobrakei]

I think Bloody Rose are going to be the top choice again, due to their ap improvements on charges being able to punch through Marines. I used to take 20 sacs, but I think going down to ten is about right. Celestine will be seen less as she'll be so much easier to pick off, and losing 9 points to assassinate is too big a trade. There's potential to see big blocks of sisters, and Armour might be enough to get Warsuits into lists.

[Bonzi]

I think you've covered the highlights. For sure as a faction we've been given a significant durability buff and the cost and value of a lot of rules and buffs is going to change.

 

Sacresants took a hit in relative value to sisters because ap-1 makes them the same save as it does regular sisters. -2 AP will put them on the same footing as regular sisters as well. Only at AP 0 and AP -3 and better do Sacresants pull ahead of regular sisters. Halberds might now be the better generic weapon choice instead of maces if Marine armies rise again. The unit is still a solid melee choice and a decent pick, but I would say they are now slightly overpriced vs other choices.

 

Bodyguard is a weaker function too which really hurts sisters frail characters. I expect to see Sniper units make a return and be a real problem for us.

 

Our army wide 6++ save lost some relative value but only because our army got tougher and it now takes -5 AP to negate our regular armor save. It's not really a loss because our units gained durability but in relative terms it makes the rule itself less special.

 

The buff has also lessened the importance of chasing stacking invuln saves via Dogmata and Saint Celestine because it take much higher AP weapons before a 5++ or the harder to achieve 4++ takes effect and delivers value. This frees up Litanies and Warlord choices which is a good thing.

 

A big indirect nerf is the indirect fire rule. Exorcists were already too expensive and their 2cp strat to fire from out of LoS is now DoA. Spending two CP to go -1 to hit and give your opponent +1 armor save means you would be a fool to spend CP on this ability. It's a final nail in the coffin of the Exorcist for the time being. The upshot is that other armies troubling indirect fire just became laughable for us between the Armor of Contempt changes and the new indirect fire rules. As an army we come out ahead on this nerf, but it comes at the price of the Exorcist.

 

I think a hidden winner of this change is the Paragon Warsuits. Unlike Sacresant, their 2+ save benefits from armor of Contempt so even a meltagun shot leaves them with a 5+ armor save. With their built in -1 damage and now reducing 1ap, they can shrug even plasma like champs. Combined with the point drop they got in the last balance and I think there is some action in this unit now.

 

The other big winner is our paper tiger vehicles. Rhinos, Immolators, and Castigators got a bump in survivability as well. Still debatable if their points are competitive, but something is better than nothing.

[Atrus]

The ap reduction applying to our vehicles is a nice welcome. Exorcist going down to T7 has been a hefty blow which has seen it destroyed far more regularly for me. However this ups their save to a 4+ against dreaded las cannons and 5+ against melta equivalent. Even the humble rhino is saving on 5+ against that sort of anti tank weaponry. I'm really liking this.

Just a shame the exorcist has gone from the ap-4 anti big thing work horse to effectively an ap-1 peashooter against anything marines. Seriously, I still don't get why GW have such a massive hate for the exorcist. Ap-4 was fine for 20 freaking years....sigh...sorry, still salty after all this time.

 

The bodyguard rule is nice to have cleaned up. At least we're not losing multiple celestians to single shots any more. Did this change get applied to tau shield drones?

[Montford]

An unexpected double buff for my Sacred Rose.

[9x19 Parabellum]

What's the double part of the Sacred Rose buff?

[9x19 Parabellum]

The ap reduction applying to our vehicles is a nice welcome. Exorcist going down to T7 has been a hefty blow which has seen it destroyed far more regularly for me. However this ups their save to a 4+ against dreaded las cannons and 5+ against melta equivalent. Even the humble rhino is saving on 5+ against that sort of anti tank weaponry. I'm really liking this.

Just a shame the exorcist has gone from the ap-4 anti big thing work horse to effectively an ap-1 peashooter against anything marines. Seriously, I still don't get why GW have such a massive hate for the exorcist. Ap-4 was fine for 20 freaking years....sigh...sorry, still salty after all this time.

 

The bodyguard rule is nice to have cleaned up. At least we're not losing multiple celestians to single shots any more. Did this change get applied to tau shield drones?

 

How does Exorcist save on 4+ vs. Las?  3+ base with -3 ap reduced to -2 ap = 5+ save.  Same for rhino's and immolators.   melta puts it at 6+ which is the same as shield of faith.

 

Tau shield drones don't have the bodyguard special rule. I don't understand the question; there is no interplay between drones and bodyguard that I can see.

[Atrus]

 

 

The ap reduction applying to our vehicles is a nice welcome. Exorcist going down to T7 has been a hefty blow which has seen it destroyed far more regularly for me. However this ups their save to a 4+ against dreaded las cannons and 5+ against melta equivalent. Even the humble rhino is saving on 5+ against that sort of anti tank weaponry. I'm really liking this.

Just a shame the exorcist has gone from the ap-4 anti big thing work horse to effectively an ap-1 peashooter against anything marines. Seriously, I still don't get why GW have such a massive hate for the exorcist. Ap-4 was fine for 20 freaking years....sigh...sorry, still salty after all this time.

 

The bodyguard rule is nice to have cleaned up. At least we're not losing multiple celestians to single shots any more. Did this change get applied to tau shield drones?

How does Exorcist save on 4+ vs. Las? 3+ base with -3 ap reduced to -2 ap = 5+ save. Same for rhino's and immolators. melta puts it at 6+ which is the same as shield of faith.

 

Tau shield drones don't have the bodyguard special rule. I don't understand the question; there is no interplay between drones and bodyguard that I can see.

Huh, I could've sworn I saw not too long ago that the exorcist was a 2+ save when it got nerfed to t7...did it change again or did I just imagine it?

 

My question regarding tau drones is really: did they get changed to just have the bodyguard rule? I'm guessing not, by the sounds of it.

[JB93]

Does the armour of contempt stack with the minor conviction ‘shield of aversion’, it says Ap 1 counts as ap 0, so AoC reduces Ap-2 to Ap-1, does SoA then kick in effectively making ap-2 Ap-0? A la old Valerie’s hearts? Shield of aversion doesn’t modify the armour piercing by 1 it just changes 1 to 0, so technically isn’t another modifier

[9x19 Parabellum]

Does the armour of contempt stack with the minor conviction ‘shield of aversion’, it says Ap 1 counts as ap 0, so AoC reduces Ap-2 to Ap-1, does SoA then kick in effectively making ap-2 Ap-0? A la old Valerie’s hearts? Shield of aversion doesn’t modify the armour piercing by 1 it just changes 1 to 0, so technically isn’t another modifier

 

3rd bullet point of armour of contempt reads:

 

"Models that are under the effects of any other rule that worsens or reduces the Armour Penetration characteristic of an attack."

 

You'd have to do some serious mental gymanstics and rules lawyering to suggest that "count ap 1 as ap 0" doesn't qualify as "Under the effect of any other rule that worsens or reduces the AP".....like...Johnny Cochrane level lawyering.  So, no, it would not stack and that custom conviction is pretty much negligible and superfluous at this point.

[9x19 Parabellum]

 

 

The ap reduction applying to our vehicles is a nice welcome. Exorcist going down to T7 has been a hefty blow which has seen it destroyed far more regularly for me. However this ups their save to a 4+ against dreaded las cannons and 5+ against melta equivalent. Even the humble rhino is saving on 5+ against that sort of anti tank weaponry. I'm really liking this.

Just a shame the exorcist has gone from the ap-4 anti big thing work horse to effectively an ap-1 peashooter against anything marines. Seriously, I still don't get why GW have such a massive hate for the exorcist. Ap-4 was fine for 20 freaking years....sigh...sorry, still salty after all this time.

 

The bodyguard rule is nice to have cleaned up. At least we're not losing multiple celestians to single shots any more. Did this change get applied to tau shield drones?

How does Exorcist save on 4+ vs. Las? 3+ base with -3 ap reduced to -2 ap = 5+ save. Same for rhino's and immolators. melta puts it at 6+ which is the same as shield of faith.

 

Tau shield drones don't have the bodyguard special rule. I don't understand the question; there is no interplay between drones and bodyguard that I can see.

Huh, I could've sworn I saw not too long ago that the exorcist was a 2+ save when it got nerfed to t7...did it change again or did I just imagine it?

 

My question regarding tau drones is really: did they get changed to just have the bodyguard rule? I'm guessing not, by the sounds of it.

 

 

Not unless its in some Errata somewhere that I missed. 

 

Tau drones and <bodyguard> have no inter-operation.  You might be thinking of previous edition/codex for Tau.  Drones are part of a unit and can be chosen to take wounds for attacks made against that unit.  They have 0 interaction with characters outside that specific unit.  Savior Protocols, as a stratagem, can be used, but it says/has nothing to do with the bodyguard rule, and it isn't specifically mentioned in the datasheet balancing doc as being a "bodyguard" ability.

[Montford]

What's the double part of the Sacred Rose buff?

First: the AP-1 buff all Sororitas received

 

Second: Even more Miracle Dice than what we get now for our Order Trait.

[Emicus]

Final nail in the coffin for Exorcists with the barrage update.

[Bonzi]

My friend and I had a 2K throwdown because we both wanted to bring out armies that benefitted from the updates. I brought my Argent Shroud and he played his Salamanders.

 

Armor of Contempt was a big durability buff for the sisters because of Marines easy AP on all their shooting. The Salamanders got less benefit from it just because of the composition of my shooting. He did roll a number of 6s to save vs my melta shots which would not have been an option previously.

 

Sacresants were the useful bricks they have always been, but they felt far less special than before and in general outside of a handful of AP 0 attacks, their saves were no better than if I had just brought another brick of 10 sisters. They still fill a role other sisters don't, but I'd say they need their previous points hike removed.

 

Paragons and Immolators both benefitted from the durability buff and I think Paragons are in a place where I would consider running two squads of them.

 

Heavy Bolter Retributors put in real work but it did take the Dogmata putting the Repugnance hymn on them every turn so I could get extra AP and autowounding.

 

In many ways it was a mirror match so we didn't learn if the buffs will make a difference vs other opponents but it was nice to play a game where we were not obliterating each other turn 1 and knowing who would win by turn 2. We both had units in play all the way to turn 5. Honestly it just felt good to play a game several codexes removed from the current insanity.

 

I think Armor of Contempt was a big buff to sisters and puts us more solidly into upper middle tier but space Marines are still too expensive for what they do although some tourney skew builds may come out that maximize the new changes.

Edited April 16, 2022 by Bonzi

[9x19 Parabellum]

Interesting take.
 

I was just reading a lengthy thread on Dakka wherein a user says that overall Sisters have net 0 gain from this or even get worse because (his argument/reasoning): 

-the most competitive SoB build was 30 Sacresancts in Valorous Heart

AND

-since VH got a net slight nerf

AND 

-since Sacresancts got a relative nerf (overall) and a direct nerf (specifically in VH builds)

....

that it means the overall competitiveness of SoB can only be determined to be increase if the net gain of all the other units that got buffed are better than the nerfs that Sacresancts got.  According to that user, the net gain from Armour of Contempt overall is not worth the net buff to other non-Sacresanct units.  Your game results, above, would seem to match his theory.  That makes me said if it's true, though I was never running VH Sacresancts.  My build of choice is fast MSU argent shroud, so I was taking Immolators and Retributors before and I'll absolutely be taking them now.  *MY* army only got better.  But I do think he may have had a point. 

[Malakithe]

Interesting take.

 

I was just reading a lengthy thread on Dakka wherein a user says that overall Sisters have net 0 gain from this or even get worse because (his argument/reasoning): 

-the most competitive SoB build was 30 Sacresancts in Valorous Heart

AND

-since VH got a net slight nerf

AND 

-since Sacresancts got a relative nerf (overall) and a direct nerf (specifically in VH builds)

....

that it means the overall competitiveness of SoB can only be determined to be increase if the net gain of all the other units that got buffed are better than the nerfs that Sacresancts got.  According to that user, the net gain from Armour of Contempt overall is not worth the net buff to other non-Sacresanct units.  Your game results, above, would seem to match his theory.  That makes me said if it's true, though I was never running VH Sacresancts.  My build of choice is fast MSU argent shroud, so I was taking Immolators and Retributors before and I'll absolutely be taking them now.  *MY* army only got better.  But I do think he may have had a point. 

As a fan of Argent Shroud what is your current list looking like?

[Atrus]

Interesting take.

 

I was just reading a lengthy thread on Dakka wherein a user says that overall Sisters have net 0 gain from this or even get worse because (his argument/reasoning):

-the most competitive SoB build was 30 Sacresancts in Valorous Heart

AND

-since VH got a net slight nerf

AND

-since Sacresancts got a relative nerf (overall) and a direct nerf (specifically in VH builds)

....

that it means the overall competitiveness of SoB can only be determined to be increase if the net gain of all the other units that got buffed are better than the nerfs that Sacresancts got. According to that user, the net gain from Armour of Contempt overall is not worth the net buff to other non-Sacresanct units. Your game results, above, would seem to match his theory. That makes me said if it's true, though I was never running VH Sacresancts. My build of choice is fast MSU argent shroud, so I was taking Immolators and Retributors before and I'll absolutely be taking them now. *MY* army only got better. But I do think he may have had a point.

Ugh, I know the cancer thread you were reading. A bunch of sweeping statements that essentially boil down to sacrosanct didn't get to benefit from AoC and VH got changed, therefore sisters are now all trash and if your weren't playing VH and spamming sacrosanct before, you weren't playing sisters at all. That thread made me so mad.

 

I know I'm very happy with the AoC change for my custom order mech sisters. Though my exorcist will weep bloody tears whenever I'm against power armour.

The VH change had to happen for balance otherwise they'd be able to reduce ap-3 down to ap-1 and if you can't see how ridiculous that is, then I don't know what to say. Locking out rerolling wounds is nice. One of deathguards things is rerolling wounds.

[9x19 Parabellum]

 

Interesting take.

 

I was just reading a lengthy thread on Dakka wherein a user says that overall Sisters have net 0 gain from this or even get worse because (his argument/reasoning): 

-the most competitive SoB build was 30 Sacresancts in Valorous Heart

AND

-since VH got a net slight nerf

AND 

-since Sacresancts got a relative nerf (overall) and a direct nerf (specifically in VH builds)

....

that it means the overall competitiveness of SoB can only be determined to be increase if the net gain of all the other units that got buffed are better than the nerfs that Sacresancts got.  According to that user, the net gain from Armour of Contempt overall is not worth the net buff to other non-Sacresanct units.  Your game results, above, would seem to match his theory.  That makes me said if it's true, though I was never running VH Sacresancts.  My build of choice is fast MSU argent shroud, so I was taking Immolators and Retributors before and I'll absolutely be taking them now.  *MY* army only got better.  But I do think he may have had a point. 

As a fan of Argent Shroud what is your current list looking like?

 

 

I don't have an official 2k list, as most of my games tend to be at around 1k points.   If I were to throw a list together now *based on the models I have* it would look like:

 

Vahl

combat becky with upgrades

palatine

 

10 BSS with 2x meltas, 1 c-melta

10 BSS with 2x meltas, 1 c-melta

5 BSS

 

10 Sacros with spear, inferno, halberd

Dogmata

 

5 Dominions with Artificer Storm Bolters

5 Seraphim with either flamers or inferno pistols

 

5 Rets with Heavy Flamers, 1 Arm Cher, 1 combi-melta (for holy trin if I need it)

5 Rets with Heavy Flamers, 1 Arm Cher, 1 combi-melta (same)

4 Penitent Engines (would prefer Morts, but that's what I have so until I get Morts, I'll run them); heavy flamers, buzz blades

 

immolator with twin multi

immolator with twin multi

Rhino with HKM

 

Quick math says that's right around 2k. I'm of the opinion that all BSS should be taken as trade-up units, with no expectation that they will hang around.  Hopefully get a 5 or 6 on the first miracle die so an immolator can tank a lascannon (or equivalent) on turn 1 and survive long enough.  The idea here is to have overlapping turns of pouring the flamer strat into the enemy, hence the 2 ret units and the PEs. 

Edited April 16, 2022 by 9x19 Parabellum

[Banjulhu]

I dont think the Bloody Rose are going to get much traction in a world where half the armies they could come across ignore their AP buff.

[Malakithe]

I dont think the Bloody Rose are going to get much traction in a world where half the armies they could come across ignore their AP buff.

Thats why im all for Argent Shroud. If ive learned anything this past while its that movement wins games

[Purifying Tempest]

The amount of salt over the fence there is incredible :)  Anyways, I'm still an advocate for VH even though it could be argued they've taken a hit.

 

Mortal wounds seem to be a common player in many strategies now, lots of armies have ways to hit with them... and more-and-more armies seem to be able to do vicious amounts of them.  I think the 5+++ against Mortals is probably their strong trait now, and the no to re-rolling wounds is going to be the "nice to have" that'll pop up a lot more often than people give it credit for.

 

I was just thinking the past week about some matchups I had gotten through against TS and totally forgot that part of the trait.

[Bonzi]

Against the newest meta crushing armies Valorous Heart got the biggest buff of any sisters army. The last three new dexes all have big wound reroll components and VH shuts them down which means VH is the best army to go up against the kings of the current meta. Sacrosanct spam and bodyguard shenanigans are dead but that's not doom for the faction when every other sister unit got a net buff in my opinion. We are certainly not in the S tier dexes but that's not a bad thing when the current S tiers all show as insanely broken and likely in line for multiple ongoing nerfs.

[EmperorGTank]

As far as the sweeping statements on Dakka, I am sure you guys are referring to ERJAK, and while he is definitely a pessimist at best, I do usually respect his takes on where we are as a faction. I agree that his initial posts on that thread about the changes were harsh and too broad brush, but in one of his more recent posts on there he did try to break us down against each faction in the game, and at least indirectly, he seemed to be relatively positive except for things like our matchups against Tau and GK, which I think we will still struggle with to some degree but the buffs should help us have a much better chance against them.
 

Personally, I like the changes overall. I agree with all the sentiments for the poor Exorcist though. I wish it would just go back to what it was in the 8th edition codex, just with T7 and at its new points cost. 170 points for a T7 tank with this buff with 3d3 S8 AP -3 Dd6 missiles wouldn't be bad at all. Maybe it wouldn't be good, but it would be much better than this differently named Whirlwind that we currently have now (that also costs 2CP a turn). I will still probably bring one to most games though because I just love the model. It has been done so dirty by GW though and I hope one day it goes back to the monster it used to be (just more reliable now of course).

As a VH player I will still want to at least try it with the changes (though I was only ever bringing 10 Sacresants at most anyway) and I definitely want to try out my Warsuits more now, but I also will be using my custom order (though I'll be switching to the mini-transhuman instead of the ignore AP -1 for one of the traits). I honestly think Ebon Chalice may have also gotten a stealth buff with the extra miracle dice to use for its conviction, so I will be trying that out as well with Passion and Divine Guidance as the Sacred Rites for more melee hits and extra AP on 6s for ranged weapons. Divine Guidance is now especially necessary I feel against power armored foes for things like Heavy Bolters, Heavy Flamers, Exorcist and Vahl's Missiles and even Melta going to AP -5 to make sure most Marines do not get a save (though it of course it is irrelevant for all of our bolter and other AP 0 fire against them). 

I think we are still going to be in a better place after this than people realize. Maybe Marines shoot up more than us, but I definitely think we are at least in the upper part of B tier again, and maybe even low A tier. It all remains to be seen, but any overall buff to the army (even when there are backhanded nerfs) should be good in the long run. We are still better than many armies in the game right now, and I am just so glad we continue to get love after two decades of receiving almost nothing.

[Atrus]

Oh definitely better off. Ap-1 in the old tongue is ap4. AoC just brings us back to those earlier (and simpler) days of getting our 3+ armour against those weapons again. Even ap-2 (ap3) is giving us the old equivalent of 4+ cover save but in the open with AoC.

AoC is VERY nice and brings our saves back closer in line with older editions where power armour actually meant something.

 

Flips side, our power armoured foes also benefit from this. They'll get more use out of it compared to us though. At the end of the day, we are still only T3 on foot. We still fear massed lasguns (even more so now).

 

Edit:

Just realised that Divine Guidance and Catachysm of Repugnance have taken a bit of a blow when facing power armour.

Edited April 17, 2022 by Atrus

[Beams]

I feel like everyone is discounting how big getting this is.

 

Vs Marines we don't use AP on our main guns, so they don't get any bonuses.

 

Marines have AP-1 on most of their guns or AP-2 if it's the right turn -- this now makes it AP 0 then AP -1. That should be a huge survival boost for our basic troops, and make them hit us with either more shots or better guns.

 

Bloody Rose is still going to punch through armor better than any other melee sisters, just a little less so. I think this really hurts Base Celestians, and it hurts like Zeryphim a little, but they are still much better than other subfactions at it.

 

I will have to do math about Sisters Repentia again.

Edited April 17, 2022 by Beams