Dataslate Changes: Let's Discuss!

[Purifying Tempest]

Played against some Orks this weekend.  I still have a tender spot in my heart for the green skins after what GW did to their book, but laid off the guy for a turn or two to at least make the ending a bit more dramatic and get to the crumping phase!

 

Just some quick takeaways:

 

Armor of Contempt was hardly noticeable - but coming from Valorous Heart it makes sense, especially with the Ork levels of -1 and -2... so no big change there.

 

His wound rolls for the few hits that got through did well enough for him that he didn't need the re-roll, so didn't get to see that in action much.

 

No real mortals to speak of either.

 

My army continued to be led by the Paragons, Castigator (I know, right?), and the HB Retributors.

 

I'm going to try to coax a TS game out of that same player to really test some of the changes, both buffs for VH and for TS.  But he's been doing a lot of work with TS lately and may want a little break.  I think they're one of, if not the biggest, beneficiary of the recent changes.  Armored with Contempt + All is Dust is a pretty nice combination, especially when they can give themselves a buff to reduce incoming damage by 1.  We'll have to see there how much the changes help us.  I'm curious how my Biel-tan list fared, too, so maybe I can get in a doubleheader :)

 

Take care all!  Keep having fun!

[9x19 Parabellum]

I had a 1k point escalation league game (last game of the league) tonight against Death Guard.

Used my Argent Shroud list:

 

Canoness, chainsword, inferno , righteous rage

Palatine

 

20 BSS, 4 artificer storm bolters

Preacher with Sigil Eclesiasticus for Hymn of Blazing refrain

5 Rets with 4 heavy flamers, combi melta, arm cher

4 Penitent Engines (heavy flamers, buzz blades

2 Immolators twin multimeltas

 

75-55 to SoB. A glorious victory. mortal wounds kept his BLT's in their proper place.

[Malakithe]

 

My army continued to be led by the Paragons, Castigator (I know, right?), and the HB Retributors.

 

Tell me more about how Paragons and the Castigator worked out

[Bonzi]

Lately I've gotten surprising mileage out of the Castigator. Argent Shroud makes them mobile enough to hide/kite the worst of enemy fire. They die to a stuff breeze, but flat three damage (good against -1 damage enemies and 3 wound infantry) at range is something sisters lack so for me the pros outweigh the cons.

 

If you don't play with enough LoS blocking terrain they are DoA. Swingy D6 blast is a bummer, but at least their damage values are consistent (I say that as a Necron player who deals with d6 blast guns that do d6 damage).

[9x19 Parabellum]

I find the same thing to be true of Immolators.  With Argent Shroud, and 12" base movement, I can keep them pretty far back, and with a miracle die (or a decent roll), I have 12+6+24" melta threat range =42".  That means they can deploy far back on my line or out of LoS.  Add in Smokescreen for -1 to hit, and perhaps a decent 1st turn miracle die to trigger Shield of Faith, and you have a tank that packs some punch and stands a reasonable chance to make it to turn 2.  The rerolls to hit or wound are just gravy on top of the movement.

[archmagos]

I had a 1k point escalation league game (last game of the league) tonight against Death Guard.

Used my Argent Shroud list:

 

Canoness, chainsword, inferno , righteous rage

Palatine

 

20 BSS, 4 artificer storm bolters

Preacher with Sigil Eclesiasticus for Hymn of Blazing refrain

5 Rets with 4 heavy flamers, combi melta, arm cher

4 Penitent Engines (heavy flamers, buzz blades

2 Immolators twin multimeltas

 

75-55 to SoB. A glorious victory. mortal wounds kept his BLT's in their proper place.

This is a super interesing list! I'm curious to know how you used the 20 BSS blob? As another Argent Shroud player I can't get away from running MSU BSS with multi-meltas, just to optimise on that squad re-roll. What secondaries were you aiming for?

Edited April 23, 2022 by archmagos

[9x19 Parabellum]

Secondaries were leap of faith (not great, but around 6 or 7 vp this battle), assasinate (opponent had 3 characters and the 2nd primary involved killing enemy warlord) and engage on all fronts (I think).

 

The 20 girl BSS is for Defenders + Blessed Bolts each turn of shooting. With cannoness nearbye, that's 30 mortal wounds over the course of the game; defender lets you double tap the stormbolters even if they are out of rapid fire range = 16 shots, rerolling 1's, = (generally, on average) you'll get 3 6's which will proc 6 mortal wounds.  My local meta has a lot of crisis suits, a lot of death guard terminators and now SM with Armour of Contempt....this is how you kill them.

[archmagos]

Very nice, thanks for the info. I’ll give something like this ago and see if I can pry myself away from a dependency on MSU for Argent Shroud! I may add a Hospitaller into the mix to help make those BSS a little more resilient, I’m impressed you held them out across the game (I guess the AP reduction really helps).

[jarms48]

I think Armour of Contempt definitely makes Mortifiers, Paragons, and Zephyrims more viable melee units. Paragons might be still too expensive, but the other two I could definitely see having more use. 

 

It might even justify Battle Sister blobs more. At least up to 10 models. 

 

I definitely think Sacresants are going to be less meta, they'll still have a place of course, but only under particular builds.

Edited April 24, 2022 by jarms48

[Bonzi]

I think Armour of Contempt definitely makes Mortifiers, Paragons, and Zephyrims more viable melee units. Paragons might be still too expensive, but the other two I could definitely see having more use.

 

It might even justify Battle Sister blobs more. At least up to 10 models.

 

I definitely think Sacresants are going to be less meta, they'll still have a place of course, but only under particular builds.

I don't think Mortifers have the right keywords for Armour of Contempt.

[Blurf]

 

I think Armour of Contempt definitely makes Mortifiers, Paragons, and Zephyrims more viable melee units. Paragons might be still too expensive, but the other two I could definitely see having more use.

 

It might even justify Battle Sister blobs more. At least up to 10 models.

 

I definitely think Sacresants are going to be less meta, they'll still have a place of course, but only under particular builds.

I don't think Mortifers have the right keywords for Armour of Contempt.

 

Adepta Sororitas.

[Beams]

Played against T'au with mostly Kroot and a hammer head in a 750 pt game today.

I brought 3 Paragons, a Canoness, Palatine, Dogmata, 3 BS Squads and a Celestian Squad, with assorted upgrades thrown in there.

 

1. It was way easier to get and use miracle dice, and that secondary looks to be a lot more useful now.
2. The Rail gun makes quick work out of Paragons -- 1 hit takes out 1 and deals 3/4 wounds to the next one. It's crazy.
3. Armor of Contempt is huge. There were a lot of times that I kept a 2+ save in cover where I wouldn't have previously. 2+ is so much stronger than a 3+, and being able to keep that against a lot of shooting is huge.  Our 3+ save models are a lot more durable then they were previously. 
4. I usually pick the exploding sixes in melee ability, but this time I rolled the two dice and got a +1 to charge and a additional -1 to AP when you roll a six on ranged attacks. I used the dogmata to get the Catechism of Repugnance (6's to hit auto-wound, if in half range gain -1 AP) as well, and my bolters were suddenly really good. I can see this being a decent reason to use 20 strong sister squads with Stormbolters -- use Dogmata to power up your shots, and get a bunch of auto-wounds and a few stronger shots at AP -2. I still think the 6's in melee is stronger for my build, but I can really see a OoML Blob hitting on 2's, rerolling 1's, getting auto-wounds on sixes, and just dropping like 30ish wounds on some squad.

Edited April 27, 2022 by Beams

[jarms48]

I don't think Mortifers have the right keywords for Armour of Contempt.

 

 

Mortifiers have the Adeptus Sororitas keyword.

[9x19 Parabellum]

That's actually a nice build for the 20 BSS squad;  boost the AP with the Sacred Rite and Dogmata, and then proc mortal wounds with blessed bolts. You can get good mileage out of them!  I like it.

[Bonzi]

 

 

I don't think Mortifers have the right keywords for Armour of Contempt.

 

Mortifiers have the Adeptus Sororitas keyword.

I assumed they were like Penitent Engine. The fact that they have the right keywords is a big buff for Mortifers.

[Blurf]

 

 

I don't think Mortifers have the right keywords for Armour of Contempt.

Mortifiers have the Adeptus Sororitas keyword.

I assumed they were like Penitent Engine. The fact that they have the right keywords is a big buff for Mortifers.

 

Heavy bolters essentially losing their AP kind of cancels it out. Single Anchorite units with Buzzsaws are pretty solid.

[9x19 Parabellum]

Heavy bolters in general I think are DOA in this new meta.  The HB either needs another point of AP or it needs to be changed to heavy 4, or it needs some other kind of special rule to justify taking it. 

[Bonzi]

Heavy bolters in general I think are DOA in this new meta. The HB either needs another point of AP or it needs to be changed to heavy 4, or it needs some other kind of special rule to justify taking it.

But here's the problem, AoC was introduced because of endless AP creep made power armor useless and now people are complaining that they need more AP for their weapons which would make AoC irrelevant which puts us back in the original problem.

 

Not all weapons should be able to carve through armor and I personally think heavy bolters are in a decent spot. They are still damage 2 which makes the good verses standard Marines, light vehicles and monsters but heavy armor infantry can shrug them. In my opinion that's an ok place to be because we have melta and melee options for the heavy infantry. I'm will for weapons to be less lethal in the games as a whole if it means games get to be played to turn 5.

 

I do think AoC means some of our previously less popular AP boosting tricks like Repugnance are more necessary now.

[Beams]

IDK, I still think Heavy bolters are valid -- not all armies are marines. And even vs marines, it's got +12", +1 Shot, +1 to wound and double damage vs a regular bolter. A squad of retributors can hang back out of charge range and let loose.

 

They are no longer great, I guess, but there's still something to be said about having a decent weight of fire that can reach out and touch whatever you want.

[9x19 Parabellum]

 

Heavy bolters in general I think are DOA in this new meta. The HB either needs another point of AP or it needs to be changed to heavy 4, or it needs some other kind of special rule to justify taking it.

But here's the problem, AoC was introduced because of endless AP creep made power armor useless and now people are complaining that they need more AP for their weapons which would make AoC irrelevant which puts us back in the original problem.

 

Not all weapons should be able to carve through armor and I personally think heavy bolters are in a decent spot. They are still damage 2 which makes the good verses standard Marines, light vehicles and monsters but heavy armor infantry can shrug them. In my opinion that's an ok place to be because we have melta and melee options for the heavy infantry. I'm will for weapons to be less lethal in the games as a whole if it means games get to be played to turn 5.

 

I do think AoC means some of our previously less popular AP boosting tricks like Repugnance are more necessary now.

 

 

I agree with all that but here's the problem.  This is the chart/math on the relative effectiveness of each weapon's ability to kill Space Marines.  (I think there's a good argument to be made that the heavy bolter was the premier cost effective weapon at killing space marines because you got str 5 (wound on 3's) and 2 damage, with a little bit of armor punch.)

 

WEAPON / COST / SHOTS / HITS / WOUNDS / UNSAVED / DEAD MARINES / WCtKR

12 Multimeltas / 240 / 24     / 16      / 13.3           / 11.1           / 9.3                / 25.9

8 Heavy Bolters / 80 / 24     / 16      / 10.7           / 3.6             / 3.6                / 22.2

 

The last column (Weapon Cost to Kill Ratio) is what I want to compare.  Basically, 25.9 points of multimeltas kills you 1 marine, and 22.2 points of heavy bolters kills you 1 marine.  This puts the heavy bolter kill efficiency (for marines) slightly ahead of Multi-meltas.

Cool.  The problem is that the Multimelta kills just about everything in the game better, except hordes, but even then the basic bolter or ministorum flamer is better than either one of these at killing hordes (in terms of efficiency). 

 

So what to do? You need to kill vehicles, crisis suits, terminators etc?  Get multimeltas....and oh yeah they can kill marines too with slightly less cost efficiency, but not enough loss of efficiency that it makes sense to drop them in favor of more heavy bolters.  This means heavy bolters are going to go away because they really don't have a place anymore given the meta's new ubiquity of AoC.  I'm not complaining here, I'm just saying, Heavy Bolters are not what you want to be taking in your lists.   

Edited April 30, 2022 by 9x19 Parabellum

[Viridovix]

I had a 500 pts match last Friday against Necrons...I brought 9 Celestian Sacresants and they still kick ass no matter what. Their 2 Save and 4 Inv, the trade cost, weapon strength (and Our Martyred Lady bonus if model dies) makes them still usable to me.

[Emperor Ming]

Points increase, bodyguard nerf, then not benefiting from armour of content was three nails in the coffin for sacrosancts in my list

 

No idea what to do with sisters atm 

 

Heavy bolters and other ap1 weapons have recently become less effective, I already disliked heavy bolters so

 

and basic bolt guns are not even decent anymore, with random bug weapons being s5 ap1

[jarms48]

 

Heavy bolters essentially losing their AP kind of cancels it out. Single Anchorite units with Buzzsaws are pretty solid.

 

You take them for melee, not shooting. 

[Viridovix]

Points increase, bodyguard nerf, then not benefiting from armour of content was three nails in the coffin for sacrosancts in my list

 

No idea what to do with sisters atm

 

Heavy bolters and other ap1 weapons have recently become less effective, I already disliked heavy bolters so

 

and basic bolt guns are not even decent anymore, with random bug weapons being s5 ap1

 

I'd run a 5 models Sisters Squad just for camping objectives. If I spare some points, add some special weapons...

 

The bodyguard...well. I'm kinda the Kamikaze player with HQ, I like them in frontlines chopping things or dying!

Edited May 1, 2022 by Viridovix

[Blurf]

IDK, I still think Heavy bolters are valid -- not all armies are marines. And even vs marines, it's got +12", +1 Shot, +1 to wound and double damage vs a regular bolter. A squad of retributors can hang back out of charge range and let loose.

 

They are no longer great, I guess, but there's still something to be said about having a decent weight of fire that can reach out and touch whatever you want.

A squadron of retributors kills 2 intercessors on average with 4 heavy bolters. Not in cover.

 

Not saying they don't have a place. Just not great against marines.

 

 

Heavy bolters essentially losing their AP kind of cancels it out. Single Anchorite units with Buzzsaws are pretty solid.

 

You take them for melee, not shooting. 

 

You take them for both or they're not worth 65pts.