Dataslate Changes: Let's Discuss!

[Beams]

 

 

IDK, I still think Heavy bolters are valid -- not all armies are marines. And even vs marines, it's got +12", +1 Shot, +1 to wound and double damage vs a regular bolter. A squad of retributors can hang back out of charge range and let loose.

 

They are no longer great, I guess, but there's still something to be said about having a decent weight of fire that can reach out and touch whatever you want.

A squadron of retributors kills 2 intercessors on average with 4 heavy bolters. Not in cover.

 

Not saying they don't have a place. Just not great against marines.

 

 

 

Heavy bolters essentially losing their AP kind of cancels it out. Single Anchorite units with Buzzsaws are pretty solid.

You take them for melee, not shooting.

You take them for both or they're not worth 65pts.

I think it's more heavy bolters are generalists? Without them, equal regular bolters kill <1 and have to do it much closer (12")

[Lemondish]

Not sure why we constantly select Marines as the target to kill with these weapons.

 

Like, you're not dealing with chaff when up against Marines. You're not dealing with Kroot, Drones, Spore Mines, or other screens.

[Bonzi]

Not sure why we constantly select Marines as the target to kill with these weapons.

 

Like, you're not dealing with chaff when up against Marines. You're not dealing with Kroot, Drones, Spore Mines, or other screens.

It's a holdover from the old days where Marines were the benchmark and baseline for everything. How did X unit compare to Marines? Can this unit or that weapon take down Marines? I think the comparisons persist not because of their meta level but rather how common they are as an opponent. Almost everyone in this hobby owns or has owned a Marines army. Edited May 4, 2022 by Bonzi

[Blurf]

Not sure why we constantly select Marines as the target to kill with these weapons.

 

Like, you're not dealing with chaff when up against Marines. You're not dealing with Kroot, Drones, Spore Mines, or other screens.

tbf, heavy bolters being 2 damage make them relatively inefficient against those too. That said, they're our only generic weapon that shoots further than 24" so they do have a place. Taking 1-2 Mortifiers or even a cheap as chips triple heavy bolter immolator make good spore mine sweepers that can really limit a tyranid player's area control.

 

Jack Harpster got a decent amount of mileage out of a Castigator of all things just because he had something that could clear spore mines without overexposing itself.

[Blurf]

 

Not sure why we constantly select Marines as the target to kill with these weapons.

 

Like, you're not dealing with chaff when up against Marines. You're not dealing with Kroot, Drones, Spore Mines, or other screens.

It's a holdover from the old days where Marines were the benchmark and baseline for everything. How did X unit compare to Marines? Can this unit or that weapon take down Marines? I think the comparisons persist not because of their meta level but rather how common they are as an opponent. Almost everyone in this hobby owns or has owned a Marines army.

 

Most locals metas revolve around marine statlines. At a GT level you tend to deal with meta FoTM more often, but not all the time. Either way, Marines are by far the most likely opponent you'll run into.

Edited May 4, 2022 by Blurf

[Lemondish]

I suppose that makes sense. I made the mistake of putting too much stock into my own experience. I'm the only regular Marine player in my area - everyone else chases meta Xenos armies, so my mistake is that I tend to look at things through a more competitive meta lens without realizing it.

 

All that to say I agree - if you're building to face Marines you're not going to find much value out of heavy bolters these days.

 

But Marines are in a really bad spot, so I'd take 'em if only to level the playing field a tad XD

[Beams]

I don't exactly see too many marines, and when I do, I wouldn't say they are in a bad spot lol

 

Space Wolves with Armor of Contempt and 2 wounds each are pretty spicy. It's hard for an army that is mostly short range (flamers and meltas) to do much damage vs an army that ignores the Ap -1 from Heavy Flamers and has at least 2 wounds on each model. 

 

I mostly play against Nids/Genestealers/Custodes/Necrons. Vs which I'd say Heavy Bolters are pretty good?

Edited May 5, 2022 by Beams

[Bonzi]

I suppose that makes sense. I made the mistake of putting too much stock into my own experience. I'm the only regular Marine player in my area - everyone else chases meta Xenos armies, so my mistake is that I tend to look at things through a more competitive meta lens without realizing it.

 

All that to say I agree - if you're building to face Marines you're not going to find much value out of heavy bolters these days.

 

But Marines are in a really bad spot, so I'd take 'em if only to level the playing field a tad XD

Marines were in a rough spot as were most of the early 9th dexes before GW really started their power creep. Necrons, Space Marines, Space Wolves, and Blood Angels all suffer from their units being over priced, their strats being toned way down, and most of their mortal wound output capped at 3. The dexes were well balanced against each other, but are pale shadows of dexes that came out after. I think AoC puts Marines and Sisters back into mid or upper mid tier army with a shot at placing in tournaments if played well.

 

I have taken both my Argent Shroud and Blood Angels for a spin with AoC and I have played against Salamanders and TSons and I can say AoC changes the math on a lot of units and will really shake up the mid tier list building. My Blood Angels in particular finally feel like they are durable enough to last until the assault doctrine with enough fighting units to still matter.

[Lemondish]

 

I suppose that makes sense. I made the mistake of putting too much stock into my own experience. I'm the only regular Marine player in my area - everyone else chases meta Xenos armies, so my mistake is that I tend to look at things through a more competitive meta lens without realizing it.

 

All that to say I agree - if you're building to face Marines you're not going to find much value out of heavy bolters these days.

 

But Marines are in a really bad spot, so I'd take 'em if only to level the playing field a tad XD

Marines were in a rough spot as were most of the early 9th dexes before GW really started their power creep. Necrons, Space Marines, Space Wolves, and Blood Angels all suffer from their units being over priced, their strats being toned way down, and most of their mortal wound output capped at 3. The dexes were well balanced against each other, but are pale shadows of dexes that came out after. I think AoC puts Marines and Sisters back into mid or upper mid tier army with a shot at placing in tournaments if played well.

 

I have taken both my Argent Shroud and Blood Angels for a spin with AoC and I have played against Salamanders and TSons and I can say AoC changes the math on a lot of units and will really shake up the mid tier list building. My Blood Angels in particular finally feel like they are durable enough to last until the assault doctrine with enough fighting units to still matter.

I can see that. I was already focused on melta as my expected Marine response (since it was the thing I feared when I played my DW), along with obsec empowered Repentia missiles.

[Emperor Ming]

I'm expecting some decent points drop in the next points update, things like castigators, suits, generic sisters, sacrosancts and probably other units are in dire need of a drop in pts

 

Wont hold my breath

Edited May 5, 2022 by Emperor Ming

[Beams]

I'm expecting some decent points drop in the next points update, things like castigators, suits, generic sisters, sacrosancts and probably other units are in dire need of a drop in pts

 

Wont hold my breath

 

I wouldn't expect generic sisters to come down in points -- the AoC buff is pretty decent on them -- they feel like they can finally take a few hits, especially in cover. Light arms still hurt in large numbers, but things like Autocannons, Heavy Flamers and Heavy Bolters are no longer so fearsome.

[Blurf]

I suppose that makes sense. I made the mistake of putting too much stock into my own experience. I'm the only regular Marine player in my area - everyone else chases meta Xenos armies, so my mistake is that I tend to look at things through a more competitive meta lens without realizing it.

 

All that to say I agree - if you're building to face Marines you're not going to find much value out of heavy bolters these days.

 

But Marines are in a really bad spot, so I'd take 'em if only to level the playing field a tad XD

This is why top Sisters players are taking more things like mortifiers and the castigator. If you're confident in the marine matchup or don't think you'll run into marines that often, aboslutely bring HBs. -1AP 2D is still very good into most Xenos factions (and daemons.)

[Blurf]

 

I'm expecting some decent points drop in the next points update, things like castigators, suits, generic sisters, sacrosancts and probably other units are in dire need of a drop in pts

 

Wont hold my breath

 

I wouldn't expect generic sisters to come down in points -- the AoC buff is pretty decent on them -- they feel like they can finally take a few hits, especially in cover. Light arms still hurt in large numbers, but things like Autocannons, Heavy Flamers and Heavy Bolters are no longer so fearsome.

 

They need to revert the nerfs from CA2022 and drop...basically all our vehicles again. Infantry is mostly fine (Celestians not wishtanding) but things like penitent engines (who don't get AoC) and the Exorcist (whose 2CP stratagem was bad BEFORE the LoS change) need some serious help.

[Lemondish]

 

 

I suppose that makes sense. I made the mistake of putting too much stock into my own experience. I'm the only regular Marine player in my area - everyone else chases meta Xenos armies, so my mistake is that I tend to look at things through a more competitive meta lens without realizing it.

 

All that to say I agree - if you're building to face Marines you're not going to find much value out of heavy bolters these days.

 

But Marines are in a really bad spot, so I'd take 'em if only to level the playing field a tad XD

This is why top Sisters players are taking more things like mortifiers and the castigator. If you're confident in the marine matchup or don't think you'll run into marines that often, aboslutely bring HBs. -1AP 2D is still very good into most Xenos factions (and daemons.)

Exactly the point I was originally making before folks reminded me that local metas trump all.

[Beams]

 

 

 

 

I'm expecting some decent points drop in the next points update, things like castigators, suits, generic sisters, sacrosancts and probably other units are in dire need of a drop in pts

 

Wont hold my breath

I wouldn't expect generic sisters to come down in points -- the AoC buff is pretty decent on them -- they feel like they can finally take a few hits, especially in cover. Light arms still hurt in large numbers, but things like Autocannons, Heavy Flamers and Heavy Bolters are no longer so fearsome.

They need to revert the nerfs from CA2022 and drop...basically all our vehicles again. Infantry is mostly fine (Celestians not wishtanding) but things like penitent engines (who don't get AoC) and the Exorcist (whose 2CP stratagem was bad BEFORE the LoS change) need some serious help.

Agreed. The exorcist model is the model that got me into sister's, but I can't bring myself to bring a tank that is just so utterly worthless. It's rockets are like long ranged slaps vs what it used to be in 7th edition.

[Bonzi]

I'm not holding great hopes for a lot of point changes in this round. I'm pretty sure GWs opinion on the matter is that AoC 'fixed' the power armor factions. The one points change I do see as possible is the Exorcist. It was bad before all the nerfs to indirect fire, now it's even worse. I would also like to see a roll back of the Sancrosants point bump but I don't think it's likely we will see GW change course that quickly.

 

I would also note that GWs announcement said they were revisiting all of the faction secondaries for tweaks, so while we probably won't see big changes in points we can hope for some improvement in our secondaries which currently aren't great.

Edited May 6, 2022 by Bonzi

[Beams]

I'm not holding great hopes for a lot of point changes in this round. I'm pretty sure GWs opinion on the matter is that AoC 'fixed' the power armor factions. The one points change I do see as possible is the Exorcist. It was bad before all the nerfs to indirect fire, now it's even worse. I would also like to see a roll back of the Sancrosants point bump but I don't think it's likely we will see GW change course that quickly.

 

I would also note that GWs announcement said they were revisiting all of the faction secondaries for tweaks, so while we probably won't see big changes in points we can hope for some improvement in our secondaries which currently aren't great.

 

I don't mind the one where we have to spend faith points any more -- it's not the easiest, but it's definitely doable if you build for it, but dang the rest aren't great.

Defend the shrine is tough, your opponent really gets to dictate it.

[Blurf]

I'm not holding great hopes for a lot of point changes in this round. I'm pretty sure GWs opinion on the matter is that AoC 'fixed' the power armor factions. The one points change I do see as possible is the Exorcist. It was bad before all the nerfs to indirect fire, now it's even worse. I would also like to see a roll back of the Sancrosants point bump but I don't think it's likely we will see GW change course that quickly.

 

I would also note that GWs announcement said they were revisiting all of the faction secondaries for tweaks, so while we probably won't see big changes in points we can hope for some improvement in our secondaries which currently aren't great.

This is actually the opposite of what's likely to happen. Leap of Faith is a guaranteed 12 points that your opponent can't do anything about (for competitive lists) it's likely going to be very significantly nerfed.

 

Keep in mind that for leap, you have the opportunity to score as many as 25 points across 5 turns. Playing OoML it's trivial to score 12 and playing BR you only need to sack off a character or a unit of repentia early to get enough momentum going to score all 12.

[9x19 Parabellum]

Secondaries are capped at 15 points max each.

Edited May 11, 2022 by 9x19 Parabellum

[Lemondish]

Secondaries are capped at 15 points max each.

A key element you missed was that while you are capped, knowing how many opportunities you have to meet that cap, perhaps visualized by the potential max you can achieve sans cap, helps you determine how easily it is to achieve that maximum score across 5 rounds.

[EmperorGTank]

 

I'm not holding great hopes for a lot of point changes in this round. I'm pretty sure GWs opinion on the matter is that AoC 'fixed' the power armor factions. The one points change I do see as possible is the Exorcist. It was bad before all the nerfs to indirect fire, now it's even worse. I would also like to see a roll back of the Sancrosants point bump but I don't think it's likely we will see GW change course that quickly.

 

I would also note that GWs announcement said they were revisiting all of the faction secondaries for tweaks, so while we probably won't see big changes in points we can hope for some improvement in our secondaries which currently aren't great.

This is actually the opposite of what's likely to happen. Leap of Faith is a guaranteed 12 points that your opponent can't do anything about (for competitive lists) it's likely going to be very significantly nerfed.

 

Keep in mind that for leap, you have the opportunity to score as many as 25 points across 5 turns. Playing OoML it's trivial to score 12 and playing BR you only need to sack off a character or a unit of repentia early to get enough momentum going to score all 12.

 

I agree that we should expect some kind of nerf to Leap of Faith, though I would honestly love if the other secondaries got buffed in some way as a form of compensation.

 

I am also in agreement that, hopefully, the Exorcist will get some kind of points help. I have brought up my love for that model multiple times on here but ever since those Exorcist Missiles went to AP -2 instead of AP -3 in 8th (or AP -4/AP 1 like they were for the most of the game up through that horrible beta codex), it has just felt terribly lackluster. The moment the missiles became AP -2 they should have dropped to about 10 points, not the 30 that they currently are and have been since they got buffed to 3d3 shots. Honestly I would even say at this point the Exorcist needs to be 140 points regardless of which weapon you bring, 140 for either the anti-infantry rockets or the anti-tank (they really aren't anymore) missiles. Not saying that would make it "good" but it might make it a slight tech choice. Really I think it needs to be back to about 125 like it was back in 7th edition to even be considered on the table now. 

 

Hopefully at some point that 2CP strat changes too because now it's definitely only worth 1CP and if you want to keep it 2CP it should have an added clause where it ignores the new LoS rules or something. Finally, I just wanted to again express my dissatisfaction that the EXORCIST MISSILE LAUNCHER became 3d3 krak missiles instead of the literal MELTA MISSILES that they have always been in the lore. I agree that when it went to 3d3 shots AP -4 was a bit much, but AP -3 was completely fine and it was still a way to keep them different from krak missiles. Morvenn Vahl's Paragon Missile Launcher that fires Prioris Missiles is supposed to be a Sisters version of frag and krak missiles (Sanctorum and Prioris), that makes sense to me. BUT THE EXORCIST MISSILE LAUNCHER IS AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT WEAPON. 

 

Forgive the rant, but I have been pissed about it all edition and as soon as I see what this new points update looks like I will either be praising GW for going online with points and helping our vehicles out a bit, or complaining to them about how they ruined one of my favorite models after praising them about the move to online points).