Throne of Light (Dawn of Fire 4) review threads

[Kelborn]

Wether you like or dislike other settings, their progression or whatsoever, this thread is about the fourth novel in the Dawn of Fire series.

 

Yes, it seemingly has some major implications on the wider setting. 

 

Nonetheless, we had this kind of revelation before without constantly comparing it with other GW franchises.

 

So please, refocus on the novel itself.

 

If there's a need to discuss the setting of Warhammer 40K and how it has changed/ might change in the coming years, please do so in a separate thread. 

 

Thank you.

[Ubiquitous1984]

This was my least favourite in the series so far, but it was still a decent listen.

 

John Banks as ever does a superb job with the audio narration.  He is truly one of the best, and it has been great that he has voiced the full series so far.  Continuity of narration is particularly important in 40K, with so many important beloved characters to contend with.  It is really grating when a beloved character is voiced in a particular way by one narrator, only for a different narrator to voice it completely differently in another story.  

 

Speaking of beloved characters, I am really warming to Inquisitor Rostov, Fabius the historitor and the xenos Chilka (sp?).  The latter's appeal is aided by the perfect voice that John Banks uses for the part.  He absolutely nails it, and I suspect has a bit of fun when narrating those parts. 

Edited May 9, 2022 by Ubiquitous1984

[Petitioner's City]

Yeah I really like those characters, Ubiquitous1984. I was also intriguied by how Rostov admits he can only confide in Antoniato. It was rather suggestive, and a nice wee piece of inclusion - that perhaps when Rostov was elevated after their master's death, he had to cut off some kind of relationship - whether a friendship, or more:

 

 

 

Antoniato was still cleaning the interrogation chamber. The stream of a high-pressure hose drummed faintly against the thick walls. Rostov was in the antechamber alone with his thoughts. His retinue let him be. They were open to him, even now, in his hour of meditation. He had found that familiarity opened the doors almost as well as touch. He could see their thoughts as flashes if they came too close. Cheelche and Lacrante assumed he was digesting the intelligence he had learned and planning his next move. Only Antoniato knew that was not the case, that he brooded on the atrocities he must perform in order to serve the God-Emperor. Only Antoniato knew that the pain haunted him, whether inflicted on innocent or traitor. Only Antoniato knew that these brief periods of respite were necessary not so that he could succeed, but so that he would remain sane.

 

Antoniato understood, but Rostov was forced to keep him at arm’s length. The irony being that Rostov knew Antoniato best, so his mind was most open to him.

 

 

I do with the novel had less shooty-shooty/fighty-fighty (my eternal complaint about BL novels, you do not need fights!), and more of these kind of quiet moments. 

Edited May 10, 2022 by Petitioner's City

[DarkChaplain]

FYI, Rostov and Antoniato feature in the Avenging Son short story from the limited edition. It does talk about Antoniato being kind of a paradox person, and he is the one who performs the interrogation-torture on their master's subjects - while Rostov projects himself onto the victim to link minds and slip through the cracks of their thought-walls.

 

Rostov experiences every cut that Antoniato makes, despite not physically being affected. Of all people, it's safe to say that Antoniato has left the most scars on Rostov's mind. He's both the one performing the mutilations for Rostov, while also performing them on Rostov, mentally speaking.

[Petitioner's City]

FYI, Rostov and Antoniato feature in the Avenging Son short story from the limited edition. It does talk about Antoniato being kind of a paradox person, and he is the one who performs the interrogation-torture on their master's subjects - while Rostov projects himself onto the victim to link minds and slip through the cracks of their thought-walls.

 

Rostov experiences every cut that Antoniato makes, despite not physically being affected. Of all people, it's safe to say that Antoniato has left the most scars on Rostov's mind. He's both the one performing the mutilations for Rostov, while also performing them on Rostov, mentally speaking.

 

Ah, I am not sure I would want a 40K queer relationship to possibly be that messed up 

[Scribe]

 

FYI, Rostov and Antoniato feature in the Avenging Son short story from the limited edition. It does talk about Antoniato being kind of a paradox person, and he is the one who performs the interrogation-torture on their master's subjects - while Rostov projects himself onto the victim to link minds and slip through the cracks of their thought-walls.

 

Rostov experiences every cut that Antoniato makes, despite not physically being affected. Of all people, it's safe to say that Antoniato has left the most scars on Rostov's mind. He's both the one performing the mutilations for Rostov, while also performing them on Rostov, mentally speaking.

 

Ah, I am not sure I would want a 40K queer relationship to possibly be that messed up 

 

 

Huh? Relationships in 40K are messed up. People in 40K are messed up. I dont think I can read the segment you quoted, and not come away thinking the individuals are messed up, the activities are messed up, and again, 40K is messed up.

 

Whatever relationship they have beyond that, should be irrelevant no?

[Blood Angel Scout]

Thought it was more to do with Cheelche being xenos and Lacrante being recently recruited that means Antoniato has been with him the longest as well as his assistance with the interrogations and the toll it takes on Rostov, to be the reason he's closest to him, didn't see it as any other kind of relationship.

[Petitioner's City]

 

 

 

 

FYI, Rostov and Antoniato feature in the Avenging Son short story from the limited edition. It does talk about Antoniato being kind of a paradox person, and he is the one who performs the interrogation-torture on their master's subjects - while Rostov projects himself onto the victim to link minds and slip through the cracks of their thought-walls.

 

Rostov experiences every cut that Antoniato makes, despite not physically being affected. Of all people, it's safe to say that Antoniato has left the most scars on Rostov's mind. He's both the one performing the mutilations for Rostov, while also performing them on Rostov, mentally speaking.

Ah, I am not sure I would want a 40K queer relationship to possibly be that messed up

Huh? Relationships in 40K are messed up. People in 40K are messed up. I dont think I can read the segment you quoted, and not come away thinking the individuals are messed up, the activities are messed up, and again, 40K is messed up.

 

Whatever relationship they have beyond that, should be irrelevant no?

It's more that if it was as I first read it, Im not sure a 40k novel would avoid certain homophobic traits and be able to maturely handle the complexities (which do have comparison with real world kink preferences) there. Maybe Haley would do it fine, but it just goes into a kind of territory that is harder to do smartly and not exploitatively.

 

Other than that, definitely, relationships are messy. More so, the imagery DC suggests is also very much the territory that queer studies explores too - especially in my field of medieval studies. So you are probably right.

[aa.logan]

I liked the thematic echoes of The Wolftime in the Black Templars storyline here; two unorthodox Chapters with very different perspectives and plenty of reasons *not* to ideologically align both responding to the arrival of Primaris reinforcements and the return of Guilliman in similar but wildly differing ways. The Imperium isn’t the cultural monolith it is sometimes portrayed as, and the autonomy of Space Marine Chapters is a good way of exploring that; the ways in which the Primarch’s return has unsettled the existing order is evidently going to be an ongoing and fascinating thread throughout the series.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Finished this yesterday, it started really slow. I think the connective plot points really hurt this series because they don't feel natural. It was more noticeable in this book than in wolftime which makes sense with Haley running the series but I wish they focused more.

[DarkChaplain]

I'm finally in the full swing of reading Throne of Light, after wrapping up some other stuff. I'm glad to see some points connecting things around the overall timeline.

 

Chapter nine in particular gives some pointers here; Guilliman sends Fabian Guelphrain out to do some Logos work, before heading to Vigilus and beyond. Battlegroup Kallides is already well-established at the Pariah Nexus, and Marneus Calgar had been dispatched to Vigilus to wrestle back control seemingly recently.

It also appears that the events of Faith & Fury may have already happened, as Guilliman speaks of "the recent victory at Talledus"

 

This is halfway through the Dawn of Fire part of the Indomitus Crusade, so around 5-ish years in.

 

From Dark Imperium, we know that Fabian eventually returns along with Calgar from Vigilus and studies at Macragge til Guilliman returns (and leaves again) for the Plague Wars. By the time of Dark Imperium, Calgar's Rubicon Primaris crossing had happened "years ago". I do not think that the duel between Calgar and Abaddon has happened yet by Dark Imperium; Calgar is set to be heading back after the Plague Wars, and I didn't find a reference being made to his wounds.

 

Yassilli Sulymanya is being attached as Fabian's second - and we know she's been with him ever since, including on his trip to Nihilus, iirc.

 

I now also wonder how the fallout from Godblight will turn out between Fabian and Roboute, considering the latter is well-aware of the former's anti-authoritarian streak, his disregard for orders and individualistic approaches - to the point of praising him for it and considering it necessary to his job, and Guilliman's plans. So we have the Primarch encouraging him in a way, so he can hardly blame the guy for what he's going to do later, without being a hypocrite. On the flipside, we have Guilliman making contingencies about Fabian potentially being an unwitting pawn of the Dark Gods, by way of Lucerne keeping an eye on him... which he still does in Godblight...

Seeing the eventual progression past Dark Imperium will be very interesting here.

 

Throne of Light does a lot of meta-level fixing and foreshadowing for the fluff, and I'm glad for all these little acknowledgements both between Haley's books and beyond. The Psychic Awakening fluff in particular has been all over the place, and it'll be nice to see it contextualized by the flagship series, at least in some fashion, and then allow other novels to use it to jump off and tell the full stories of what goes on elsewhere.

 

It doesn't seem unlikely to me that a lot of commissions since Dawn of Fire was conceived were deliberately geared towards stuff like the Characters series or relatively loose-continuity novels, with Space Marine Conquests grinding to a stop. Books like Ghazghkull Thraka: Prophet of the Waaagh! and Huron Blackheart: Master of the Maelstrom do fill in some things, but otherwise, we've seen fewer Space Marine novels in general, and instead more Militarum, Xenos or pre-Rift stories. Looks to me like they really don't want to muddle the waters while Dawn of Fire is being charted.

Edited May 23, 2022 by DarkChaplain

[Knockagh]

Just started this. In the introduction Guy Haley finishes it with “Human stories have always been at their most beguiling when the affairs of gods and mortals are juxtaposed.”

And this folks is why I love Guy Haley. He absolutely gets the type of BL fiction I love.

[DarkChaplain]

I'm almost done with it, and I have to say that Fabian Guelphrain is quickly becoming one of my favorite characters in modern 40k. He's great - awkward in some instances, intelligent, maybe even manipulative, in others. Principled but also willing to break with rules in favor of pragmatism. Selfish in his curiosity but also willing to put his own life at the line for somebody else's ideals. His relationships with Resilisu and Lucerne are touching and comedic - and even just between Avenging Son and here, there's tangible character growth.

 

I quite enjoyed the way that Fabian and Rostov are contrasted late into the story - Fabian is asking questions, almost on autopilot while having blackouts due to psychic activity all around, not even recalling asking what he's getting answers to. Rostov, meanwhile has the answers but is extremely reluctant to share them. Rostov buries knowledge, while Fabian gathers and compiles it so it may be shared and refered to by others as well. It exemplifies the way the Logos Historica Verita and the Inquisition are at odds, bound to clash at some point, but also shows that both are needed in some capacity, and that they can find bridges for a greater goal.

 

Similarly, Rostov and Fabian are very different people - the former is an island, or trying to be. He shuts himself off from people, by necessity in parts, but also by choice. He wears gloves, keeps his distance, does not talk to his retinue much. He's not personally invested in them directly, but it's still a comfort to know they're there. His "closeness" with Antoniato has nothing to do with sexual feelings / love at all, either. It's simply that out of all of the remaining crew from back under his old master, Antoniato is the one he worked the closest with - also by necessity rather than choice. He is the only one who truly knows what sort of person Leonid Rostov is. He also knows his low points, his near mental breakdowns, and what his psychic gift really does to him. And he is forced to lead Rostov to those things through his own actions during interrogations.

The others have an inkling, but no more. They don't fully realize what it does to Rostov, and he doesn't allow himself to show them, because it might disrupt their working relationship, cause uncertainty and doubt in him. They think he needs time to think when he needs time to put himself back together from the trauma he just earned himself.

 

On the other end, we have Fabian Guelphrain, who was kinda standoffish and smartypants with Resilisu, his family's servant, before, but actually allows himself to shed tears over their departure, embraces the old man and admits to seeing him as a father figure. We have a vulnerable Fabian trying to flirt in the most clumsy way, which immediately backfires. We have a Fabian who shows his frustration to Lucerne, who doesn't berate him so much as point out that he might be looking at it from the wrong angle. This also echoes in Athagey and Messinius' talk early on, where the groupmistress is frustrated at being sidelined by her superior, slighted in ways that might also be partially imagined, but unlike with Lucerne and Fabian, there's a lack of mutual understanding and friendship between the two, so she doesn't truly consider her views.

Lucerne and Fabian are one of my favorite Astartes-Human-friendships in 40k - and I'm glad they're both still around and kicking by Dark Imperium. This one's got huge narrative and emotional potential.

 

And then we have Fabian entering proper work mode on multiple occasions, showcasing a level of interest, intrigue and charme that makes his counterpart feel at ease, willing to share what they know with a fellow enthusiast. We have him writing records until deep in the night, being diligent about his task, and actually growing less and less interested in luxury and accomodations, where back on Terra, he wanted more of the sort. He's found a calling he loves with every fibre, knowing he does something worthy of devotion, for a "man" he believes to be right and just, but also holds critique for - Guilliman himself. He's able to peer past the mask of his opposite number, having come from the (literal) sterility and isolationism of Terran bureaucracy to reach true empathy and understanding for his fellow (super)men.

 

Again we see Rostov on the other side, growing more distant, more fearful of human contact with everything he learns about the person. Who sees his gift and calling just as much as a curse, who believes in its righteousness at least to some degree, but also knows what horrors he has to commit - but does them without hesitation. Even when he apologizes for not having time to be gentle, and breaking a man's fingers, it's with a coldness that makes it rather apparent that he's not actually sorry for the deed. He's uncompromising in his duty, but derives no true pleasure from it, doesn't grow from its trials, and what he gleans through his empath powers turns into poison for him. He alienates people, even within his own retinue. He has their loyalty, but he's made few additions to his band since his master's death, where he inherited his group. I'd argue he's lost more people on that single devastating mission than he's added since then.

 

I think Fabian Guelphrain works as a great foil for various other characters in the book, and the other stories he appears in, be they Primarch, general, inquisitor, Astartes, colleague or servant. But even without the contrast, I think he's highly entertaining, engaging and always a joy to have enter the page. Guy added a great character to the setting. I hope he'll stick around.

[Orange Knight]

@Dark Chaplain

 

Very well said. I feel that a lot of people are choosing to downplay the quality of the characters in these stories, and their personal journeys.

 

Obviously a lot of people do read the 40k novels, but a lot of people don't. For a lot of people, their knowledge of the fiction comes from YouTube summaries of key events in novels, or from bullet points on Wiki style websites.

 

This is really doing a disservice to the fiction, which is driven by the characters themselves as much as anything. It's actually what separates 40k from the most similar works, such as the Foundation. We can all agree that Asimov was a genius and that his works are often superb, but I don't love any of the characters in his stories. 40k might be pulp, but it's good pulp lol.

 

Going back to Fabian, it was fascinating to learn that Guilliman is actually aware that the powers of the warp have shown an interest in him, in some way. This could be the Emperor himself, or it the ruinous powers of Chaos. We can infer that it's actually both at different points in time.

 

It's also fascinating to learn that his close friend, the Astartes Lucerne, is assigned to not simply protect him, but to watch out for anything that might be untoward. Interesting to see how this will play out, as we know that Fabian is eventually guided by a powerful Daemon into obtaining a particular book that was explicitly prohibited by the command of the Imperial Regent, Guilliman.

Edited May 30, 2022 by Orange Knight

[Roomsky]

I love Fabian, and he fuels my confirmation bias that Haley should stick to writing Imperial citizens rather than any kind of gene-warped demigods. He's genuinely likeable and layered, and as mentioned elsewhere, I thought he was one of the only redeeming features of Godblight.

 

Speaking of which, I really hope he gets a satisfying and complete arc in Dawn of Fire. I have no good reason to doubt it, again I think Haley's running of the series has been very competent, but him popping up in Godblight means I can't get that nagging worry that DoF will end with too much setup for Dark Imperium and not enough of its own resolution out of my cynical head.

[DarkChaplain]

I'm not really worried on Fabian in that regard. He's only just returning in the Dark Imperium trilogy, and was recalled basically for what should follow Godblight; that he did something really stupid in Godblight will have repercussions later, but I don't think it'll do much to affect Dawn of Fire, beyond giving us some relevant foreshadowing in here.

 

His path is going to take him to Vigilus and into Nihilus, and if I remember correctly, that's not something that has been elaborated on in any of the Dark Imperium books. That's an unopened box ready to be filled in Dawn of Fire. It seems more likely that we'll get a crossover to the Calgar vs Abaddon fight at Vigilus in the future, via Fabian's developing strand, because of the setup here. I could see the series featuring an Abaddon + Primarchs (or champions, i.e. Typhus) conversation at some point, to deal with the Guilliman problem, which might lead to Mortarion putting his claim on Ultramar, but nothing that directly funnels into Dark Imperium otherwise.

 

From the Fabian scenes in DI, it seems like he really has stuff to tell Roboute about, though. I think his arc will peak in Nihilus, one way or another.

 

...also, I love Haley's Guilliman. He's spot on for me. The range of different Astartes in his books here has also been satisfying - and I actually laughed when Fabian thought that one of the Unnumbered Sons was "probably martian" because of how stiff and robotic he acted and talked. There's a lot of ironing out of kinks going on in the series, which makes me think that Haley as the showrunner for the series is a blessing for BL/GW as a whole.

[Karhedron]

Going back to Fabian, it was fascinating to learn that Guilliman is actually aware that the powers of the warp have shown an interest in him, in some way. This could be the Emperor himself, or it the ruinous powers of Chaos. We can infer that it's actually both at different points in time.

This may be a reference to the fluff in Gathering Storm where faces the following challenges:

 

The the Arch-Consul of Magna Civitas present Guilliman with a Laurel which allows Slannesh to tempt him through Fulgrim with visions of Glory.

 

During the reconquest of Ultramar, Nurgle unleashes the weeping plaugue which is cured merely by Guilliman's presence as a form of distraction.

 

Guilliman fought Skarbrand in the Maelstromon the way to Terra

 

Magnus himself tried to stop Guilliman on the surface of Luna

 

This shows the Chaos Gods are not only aware of Guilliman's return but have shown him he has their personal attention.

[DarkChaplain]

I believe this was about Fabian having drawn eyes, not Roboute

[cheywood]

I read this while B&C was down, so my memory might be a little spotty. 
 

Boy does Haley have a recipe in mind for his DoF books. Take 1/2 part Guilliman, 1 part historitors, 1 part Imperium forces, 1 part Chaos baddies, 1/3 part future book teases, and toss in blender. Comes out pretty well I’d say.

In other words, I enjoyed this book but it felt almost exactly like Avenging Son. You’ve got a bunch of disparate forces coming together because reasons and fighting a battle against Chaos. All the POVs in this are solid, though I didn’t love any of them the way I did the scribe’s pov in Avenging Son. Haley’s prose is enjoyable but unremarkable as usual. I’d love to see someone like French or Wraight bring a little beauty to DoF with their writing. As it stands I think DoF will end up being a very readable series that brings a lot of interesting plotting to the table but doesn’t compare to the Siege of Terra. 
 

7.5 or 8/10

Edited June 25, 2022 by cheywood

[DarkChaplain]

To my mind, not comparing to the Siege of Terra is entirely a good thing :')

And damn, this site update is going to take a lot of getting used to. It really doesn't like skipped lines to break up a wall of text, huh? Everything is taking up so much more space than it used to, which was especially jarring while scrolling over my posts further up. Might have to employ some custom userstyle to fix that, if this is bound to stay like it is now...

[sitnam]

I also finished this during the shutdown. I liked it well enough, definitely more so then Wolftime (I really dislike Space Wolves). The chaos subplot and the interactions between the Word Bearers and Tenebrus was particularly enjoyable for me.

The Black Templar plot was cool in concept, and preferred it to the similar Wolftime plot. But the book didn’t give that plot enough time to breathe and expand.

Rostov and crew are probably some of my favorite examples of an Inquisitorial party. I’d love a few novels dedicated wholly to them.

I highly question the inclusion of a Sister of Silence on the cover for all the relevance they had to the plot. The little screen time they got was interesting, but it you are gonna star on the cover I expect a bit more then that.

Overall I think Gate of Bones is still the too DoF story, with this coming close to Avenging Son. My own personal biases keep Wolftime at the bottom.

[DarkChaplain]

The covers so far have been pretty hit & miss in general.

Let's just look at The Wolftime's cover, where we got dark skinned tribal Fenrisians with dreadlocks, while the Wolves just up above are toast-colored. I don't think there was a single mention of the tribes being dark skinned. The prominent member shown is also a female warrior, while in the story, the primary Fenrisian character is a female gothi who didn't have much if any of a warrior background.

On The Gate of Bones, we got a pretty decent look, I'd say, although I'm confused about the bottom section again. A Primaris Imperial Fist with the Sisters? I guess he might be Lucerne, since he gets there, eventually, but who did have oomph in the hot phase of the book were the Custodians. And while the Mordian point of view character is featured, it'd have been better to depict some of his soldiers/scouts in the bottom instead of a token Primaris.

On Avenging Son's cover, I still can't clearly tell if the VanLeskus's eye is a standard augmetic or the optional monocle she uses. Messinius is there, which is very cool, although to my mind he's more important than the Primaris up top with Guilliman - he's probably Areios, who doesn't even appear til halfway through and I'd be hard-pressed to call a major protagonist. His role is important, but limited, while Messinius is our main perspective on the Crusade. No Rostov or Fabian here, either - though the former at least features on Throne of Light.

To be clear, I generally like these covers, even though they have the movie poster feel. They're designed in a way that makes them feel uniform, even as they feature very different characters. It's nice. A ton of series from BL suffer from looking too generic and they often seem reluctant to name their respective series on the cover - probably afraid of people not buying book 3 "on accident" anymore, and then being frustrated that they won't be able to buy a print of books 1 and 2 anymore. With a lot of books, I wouldn't be able to tell that they were part of a trilogy, even. And Omnibus covers don't even match the individual books anymore - Fabius Bile's omnibus looks utterly pathetic next to the original covers, and the comic-style Eisenhorn reissue is ludicrous - so I am glad whenever a series has a distinct style going for it; Space Marine Battles, The Beast Arises, Time of Legends (until they ditched Sullivan as the artist and switched to trade paperbacks midway through the second batch) and the first few Warhammer Heroes, with the trimmed cover page and card introduction (until they ditched that 4? books in, too...).

The problem with Dawn of Fire probably has more to do with wanting to put Primaris on every cover somehow, while being commissioned during the draft stage, where characters' relative importance isn't clear yet.

[Anthedon]

This has to be the first time in Black Library history that someone got seduced into playing semi-willing host for a daemon

by a Chaos-powered hand job. Poor guy, no happy ending for him.