Now w\ Test Paint Pics: Very Basic Wolves Q's

[Prot]

So I have sold off a few things, and I am looking to start a loyalist marine army that I haven't played in years.

 

One of those is of course Space Wolves. In looking at them I have a few questions that probably lean towards 'competitive' play, but I haven't seen a lot of SW players in local tournaments.

 

So let me try to do this in a orderly way:

1. How good can a Space Wolves Primaris based army be? I ask because a good 90% of the models I have on stand by are Primaris.

1B, Maybe a better question is: Do competitive Wolves rely more on First born, or Primaris for a good build? Or both?

 

2. Do space Wolves compete best with or without their proprietary units? ( I used to make my own TWC but they have models now that I think look great)

 

3. Dreadnoughts or Redemptors?

 

4. Are there characters you pretty much need to start a list around? Or is this a very open slot for a variety of players?

 

5. Are competitive Wolves list leaning towards Assault, Range, or a mid combo?

 

6. Are those little Fenrisian Wolves really a thing? Or are they dead in competitive play?

 

7. Your favorite HQ (named/generic)? Your favourite Primaris Unit? Your favourite First Born unit? (And if you like... ) Favourite SW propiertery Unit?

 

8. Kind of a self indulgent question here but my fave character was Arjac. Is he someone you'd use in a tournament? (back in the day mine were converted, but the model looks great)

 

Thank you for reading this. I'd appreciate any input, as of the Chapters I'm considering, I probably have the least familiarity with Wolves in 9th edition! 

 

 

Edited May 1, 2022 by Prot

[Karhedron]

1. I have been playing Primaris wolves and they are pretty good at 1000 points. Above that I feel you will struggle without some of the option that Firstborn bring. Primaris tend to be a bit light on ranged firepower for example.

 

2. I tend to play with fairly vanilla units but I have noted competitive players make good use of some of the wolfy units. Wulfen with their fight on death ability can really mess with glass hammer units like Banshees who rely on striking first to take out opponents.

 

3. Yes. Redemptors are just a solid unit and our +1 to Hit in melee makes them just that bit better. But our specific Dreads also bring some great tricks. The Shield for a 4++ save is really sweet, even now that AoC is a thing. You can also pull some nasty tricks like using a Ven Dread with shield to screen our character Dreads (Bjorn and Murderfang).

 

4. This is pretty open, none of the special Characters are "must takes". I would definitely consider a Rune Priest of some variety though as we have some tasty psychic powers. Storm Caller in particular pairs wonderfully with AoC. Squads of Terminators storming up the board with guaranteed cover is awesome, particularly if you add the "Cloaked by the Storm" stratagem for -1 to Hit against enemy shooting.

 

5. Wolves work best in melee and mid-range. The Keen Senses stratagem allows us to ignore negative to-Hit penalties so units like Long Fangs or Heavy melta Eradicators can move up and still fire at full effect. The stratagem also works particularly well with Terminators who can use it in both shooting and melee phases. Fire both barrels of your combi-weapons and still hit on a 2+ when combined with Fury of the First.

 

6. Not sure about Fenrisian Wolves but a Cyberwolf or two is very cheap and provides a fast scoring unit that can nab unguarded Objectives or claim a table quarter for EOAF. We normally have Fast attack slots going spare so these are a great way to use up spare points.

 

7. Favourite HQ probably Rune Priest (ideally with Relic armour of some sort for protection).

Favourite Primaris units Eradicators with with heavy melta rifles to leverage Keen Senses. Elimators with Sniper Rifles and Morkai bolts on the Seargent (accessed via the Thane of the retinue stratagem). Infiltrators with Helix Adept are a real swiss army unit.

Favourite Firstborn are probably Wolf Guard Terminators. We can create far more customisable builds than anyone else so go to town with Combi weapons and lightning claws or other killer combos. Long Fangs with 5 heavy weapons and cherub in a Pod are great against any opponent who is not hot on screening. 12 MM shots on the turn they arrive can vapourise a lot. Put the +1BS on the model that shoots twice and don't forget Keen Senses.

 

8. I have no real opinion on Arjac although I also have a converted one.

Edited April 29, 2022 by Karhedron

[CCE1981]

I am a big proponent of Successor Wolves with Whirlwind of Rage. My 5-man Bladeguard squad has killed Knights in a single turn of Combat. Whirlwind of Rage and the “super doctrine” stack, this means that if you re-roll everything that is not a 6 to hit, you will end up hitting more times than you swing. This translates well to Assault Intercessors as well, a single 5-man unit of mine killed a Great Unclean One in one turn, with the sgt having a Thunderhammer, and the Assault Intercessors fight twice stratagem. I believe as Space Wolves you can uniquely create a list at 2k points with three attack groups.

[yan]

I do think that both primaris and firstborn have a lot of tools in the box, so you can build around it. Incursors, infiltrators, eradicators, redemptors, assault intercessors are all really good. And the primaris chaplin on bike is an auto include i think. Maybe the primaris transports and tanks now also got a bit better with the AoC? But i dont know because i like my rhinos still to much to swap them.

 

Cyberwolves are also auto include for me. I left them out last time and i really regretted it. Some times i had to dedicate some troops to screen the back field wich I actually wanted to bring in combat for example.

 

I think we do best on the mid board. So force the opponent to come out with a bit of shooting and then get them in assault in the mid board.

 

So i think all primaris units are really good, but lately the wulfen have been doing the most work for me!

[Karhedron]

I am a big proponent of Successor Wolves with Whirlwind of Rage. My 5-man Bladeguard squad has killed Knights in a single turn of Combat.

Yes, I forgot to mention that Bladeguard Vets are a very good unit for us. Savage Strike works really well on them.

[TiguriusX]

So I have sold off a few things, and I am looking to start a loyalist marine army that I haven't played in years.

 

One of those is of course Space Wolves. In looking at them I have a few questions that probably lean towards 'competitive' play, but I haven't seen a lot of SW players in local tournaments.

 

So let me try to do this in a orderly way:

1. How good can a Space Wolves Primaris based army be? I ask because a good 90% of the models I have on stand by are Primaris.

1B, Maybe a better question is: Do competitive Wolves rely more on First born, or Primaris for a good build? Or both?

 

2. Do space Wolves compete best with or without their proprietary units? ( I used to make my own TWC but they have models now that I think look great)

 

3. Dreadnoughts or Redemptors?

 

4. Are there characters you pretty much need to start a list around? Or is this a very open slot for a variety of players?

 

5. Are competitive Wolves list leaning towards Assault, Range, or a mid combo?

 

6. Are those little Fenrisian Wolves really a thing? Or are they dead in competitive play?

 

7. Your favorite HQ (named/generic)? Your favourite Primaris Unit? Your favourite First Born unit? (And if you like... ) Favourite SW propiertery Unit?

 

8. Kind of a self indulgent question here but my fave character was Arjac. Is he someone you'd use in a tournament? (back in the day mine were converted, but the model looks great)

 

Thank you for reading this. I'd appreciate any input, as of the Chapters I'm considering, I probably have the least familiarity with Wolves in 9th edition! 

 

Too many questions to answer quickly and cleanly

 

You could start a new thread on almost all of these

 

1. Space Wolves are a counter melee army.  We lack speed/mobility tricks.

Space Wolves get most of their melee punch from first born because primaris don't have access to jump packs and special melee weapons.  That means we prefer first born characters with jump packs who can maximize hunter with advance and charge.  The primaris chaplain on a bike does have potential if you don't want first born...but his melee weapon is lackluster

 

BGV are ok but lost a step with AoC helping non shield marines.  They do shine as MEQ killers with savage strike b/c they can hit on 2s and wound on 2s in a space wolf army.  Their biggest flaw is lack of speed/mobility to get where they need to be.  I always choose wulfen or jump pack wolf guard as my melee units. 

 

I personally use incursors/infiltrators to fill out my battalions with lord of deceit on an HQ as well

I also use eradicators.  Space wolves have 1 shooting trick worth using.  Keen senses is a great buff.  I combine it with chaplain buffs to hit on 2s and get +1 to wound T8 stuff like nids/knights etc.

 

2. TWC are not great in current meta.  Too many high damage lethal weapons and they also have to deal with terrain getting in the way.  Wulfen as a proprietary unit are nice with the recent point drop.  They are not OP but  they have great rules to help in the current meta.  Fight on death messes up many of the glass hammer armies that like to hit and run.

 

5. IMO space Wolves are a counter assault army.  They do great taking and holding then punishing the enemy for getting close.  6" heroic intervention is a trick you will use often.  Armor of russ and murderous hurricane let SW control the flow of melee combat and rip apart whoever they need without being overwhelmed.  Not a true assault army b/c a lack of speed/mobility to reach the enemy.

 

6. Large packs of fenrisian wolves are a gimmick.  They don't hang around long.  In prior editions there were tricks to keep them alive and screen your characters as you approached...those days are long gone.  Single cyber wolves see more play b/c they are cheap and have lots of utility.  Zone out...stand on an objective while your army goes and fights...charging in first to eat overwatch for the rest of your army.  

 

8. Arjac can be fun b/c he is a rare marine with a 3++ in the current edition.  Main reason you don't see him is successor SW have become the go to choice.  We also have a relic to give reroll 1s to wound (morkais teeth bolts) so we don't need to bring a lieutenant like other marines do.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

1. I think competitive wolves are mix of primaris & firstborn. If I was trying to be more competitive, I'd look at our dread kit, wolf guard with jump packs, long fangs in a pod, plus jump characters. That said I do think you can get pretty close with primaris just like you can with pure firstborn.

 

2. Our dreads are pretty good. I don't know if they are necessary though. I will say as someone who went the pure primaris route that Ragnar really helps with our speed issues. The re-roll for charges is pretty strong and the bonus consolidation is free movement. That said I think your shooting for a more competitve force than what I'm running.

 

3. Both, space wolf dread lists do pretty good. Murderfang can be an absolute beast, 

 

4. There really aren't any characters I feel you need to build around. I do think we benefit a ton from the primaris bike wolf priest, but that is true for every marine fraction. 

 

5. I think we're intended to be an army that holds the middle of the field, in practice though I think TiguriusX is right to call us a counter assault army (granted I think that's just a nice way of calling space wolves slow). With HI they want us to control space but marines just aren't durable enough and I don't think AoC is gonna change that. 

 

6. Fenrisian wolves are pretty bad. Cyber wolves are better because you can take tiny squads, and they're pain to remove. I haven't been as high on them but I'm trying to hold the center because that's how I want to play wolves.

 

7. Ragnar, BGV, grey hunters, and long fangs. 

 

8. I haven't used him, he was a fellow space wolf players favorite model. I think he is pretty solid though, but I'm that guy who doesn't mind going 1-2 at tournaments (and would probably do better if I stopped reminding my opponents about their rules lol). 

[Prot]

Wow guys, thanks for the well thought out, and comprehensive answers. Much more than I hoped for.

 

As mentioned I haven't been a Wolves player since... 4th ed? And although I am tempted, I have to admit some of this army seems similar to my White Scars. But where White Scars get there faster, it appears Wolves hit harder. 

 

In fact against Deathguard, I find the Scars are completely undone by the damage mitigation (undoing their actual super tactic), and getting there 'quicker' actually just means lowering my toughness faster, and then dying to mortal wounds, or just being stuck in with Blightlords all game. (I can't tell you how many times that happens to me).

 

So I don't want to get off track because DG are obviously just a small example of how the armies might differ, but still have a few strong similarities. 

 

My other thought is Deathwatch because they seem to use all the Primaris in ways that most can't, and they also don't have a ton of proprietary units which is both good (cheaper) and bad (not as unique).

 

I look at what I'd be buying and I feel like I'd be buying the unique Dreads; a Murderfang? and a shield Ven dread? Also Wuflen just are too cool and have a bit of speed. Plus the great Wolves Termie kits... I love Termies and I think they are just awesome now. I love Bladeguard (used them a lot with my Scars) and they just perhaps lost a bit of their luster now overall with AoC. 

 

Thanks very very much for the great answers. 

[Prot]

Thanks again. Just adding some tests I did throughout the day yesterday:

 

(IF anyone is curious of the method, I posted it on my blog in steps here: https://prot40k.wordpress.com/2022/05/01/how-to-paint-grimdark-space-wolves/ )

 

So here's the few looks I came up with (a white scar in progress is in here too):
 

 

 

 

[BadgersinHills]

Really nice painting!!

[Prot]

Really nice painting!!

 

Thanks. I've hit a wall and restarted a new paint scheme for my Wolves.

 

Honestly I've taken in a lot of opinions and the over abundance of weathering is perhaps killing all the work I am trying to do on the shading and fades. So the new version will be lighter, and less dinged up. 

[Wispy]

I like the 2. Enamel best. Almost grey with just a tinge of cold to it. 

[Karhedron]

I have to admit I like #1 best.

[Triszin]

Really liking the oil