Could a Warhound Titan win a 2000 point game?

[Valkyrion]

Lets assume a friendly matched play game, but a surprise for my opponent if I show up with a single model in a 2000 point list.

His list is designed as a TAC and had no special provision for dealing with a Titan (also assume this is not a :cuss move on my part, that it's just for fun etc).

It could be any army, any faction, whatever - it's just his 2000 points against my single Warhound Titan.

 

I don't think I could win, regardless of what army my opponent brought.

 

I'd have no stratagems, bar the core ones, no doctrines, no obsec, could only kill 2 units a turn I think (you can't split a weapons fire, can you? e.g, mega bolter which is heavy 20 firing 10 at one unit and 10 at another?)

 

My best chance would probably be against a Knight army given the low model count, I think.

 

What do you think?

Edited May 3, 2022 by Jolemai
Swear filter dodge

[Tyriks]

I don't think a titan would win. In 8th I played an all knight list against a Warhound (I knew it would be a Warhound but just brought the knights I owned wysiwyg so I didn't actually tailor my list) and I absolutely demolished the Warhound. I think it'd go similarly nowadays, possibly even more one sided. If the list was a normal army list you might be able to wipe out their anti armor early on and never take another wound but you'd never score much so you'd lose on points, most likely.

 

All that said, I don't think many opponents would consider a surprise titan to be a "fun" game.

[Valkyrion]

 

All that said, I don't think many opponents would consider a surprise titan to be a "fun" game.

 

I put that to try and prevent comments about fun from taking over the thought experiment, to be honest, because then it becomes less about the parameters of the battle and more about what a jerk you are for even thinking about it. 

[MARK0SIAN]

I think any army would beat a single warhound. I’ve also seen knights wipe them out without too much trouble, even when it was armed with two turbo lasers so could theoretically take out two knights per turn if it was lucky.

 

You wouldn’t be able to hurt enough units or claim more than one objective at a time and the warhound isn’t even that durable for its points, plus there’s literally no decision making required for your opponent as to what to shoot at.

 

I’d actually put money on an outcome where a standard army could win the game if it never even fired at the warhound as it would just race away with the primary and secondary score.

[Karhedron]

Funnily enough I was thinking about this the other day when I noticed a Warhound crop up on eBay.

 

I agree with the consensus that the Titan would almost certainly lose. If you look at what it brings to the table compared to 2000 points of Knights (probably the easiest army to compare against), you can see the Titan really is poor value for its points.

[Lord_Ikka]

Titans are horrible for points efficiency- the Warhound especially. Due to it only having two weapons, you can only take out probably three units per turn (2 with ranged, 1 with a charge), so unless you go first against Knights you won't do enough damage to hurt the enemy. They are fun models, but pretty much useless in-game.

[jarms48]

The answer is sadly no. It's firepower is anaemic for its points. You have no ability to play the objective game. You have no WLT, no faction and sub-faction buffs, and no relics to further buff it. 

 

Honestly, every titan should drop by like 1000 points. I still doubt you'd win with 2 warhounds, but at least you can control 2 primaries. Have double the models and double the shooting.

Edited May 3, 2022 by jarms48

[phandaal]

Titans really do not need to be a viable option in 40k.

 

If someone wants to do a friendly game vs a titan they can certainly buff it up themselves.

[Cpt_Reaper]

You're bringing a single model worth 750 points at a best guess to a 2000 point game.

 

Victory is as close to impossible as you can get. You can hold one objective, lose it to ObSec or even just more models, can attack 2 units per shooting phase, can't get any benefits of cover...

 

Non-knight super-heavies need a reworking, starting with scrapping Imperial Armour: Compendium and rewriting it from the ground up.

[jarms48]

Titans really do not need to be a viable option in 40k.

 

If someone wants to do a friendly game vs a titan they can certainly buff it up themselves.

 

1000 points isn't even viable either. You're still losing the objective game, both primary and secondary. You still lack durability and firepower. Still lack the stacking pure faction buffs, faction buffs, and sub-faction buffs. Still lacking WLT's and Relics. Lacking stratagems. 

[Cpt_Reaper]

Titans really do not need to be a viable option in 40k.

 

If someone wants to do a friendly game vs a titan they can certainly buff it up themselves.

 

I disagree. Viable as a stand alone force they are not, but viable as an option they should be.

If someone wants to bring a Titan, how is that any different to bringing literally any other super-heavy? You should pay the points equal to their value. No "titan tax" in either points or CPs.

 

Hell, there are Knights that cost less than a Warhound but are better in every way.

[phandaal]

 

 

Titans really do not need to be a viable option in 40k.

 

If someone wants to do a friendly game vs a titan they can certainly buff it up themselves.

1000 points isn't even viable either. You're still losing the objective game, both primary and secondary. You still lack durability and firepower. Still lack the stacking pure faction buffs, faction buffs, and sub-faction buffs. Still lacking WLT's and Relics. Lacking stratagems.

What I mean is that a titan does not belong on a 40k table. If friends want to goof around and fight their titan against another army then they can come up with their own rules to make that happen.

 

I disagree. Viable as a stand alone force they are not, but viable as an option they should be.

If someone wants to bring a Titan, how is that any different to bringing literally any other super-heavy? You should pay the points equal to their value. No "titan tax" in either points or CPs.

 

Hell, there are Knights that cost less than a Warhound but are better in every way.

Honestly, even Knights are pushing it. 40k is not a game for titan scaled models.

Edited May 4, 2022 by phandaal

[Cpt_Reaper]

 

Honestly, even Knights are pushing it. 40k is not a game for titan scaled models.

 

I must disagree. 40k has had super-heavies such as Baneblades, Knights and Titans for years at this point. The scale of battles has increased massively compared to previous editions, and the game is all the richer for it. When I started, 1500 points was the standard and one could barely bring more than a handful of units depending on your army. Now, 2000 is the standard size but going smaller or larger doesn't negatively affect the gameplay.

 

It's time the community accepted they are here to stay and we get rid of the "if you turn up with a super heavy unannounced you're a bad player" mentality. Imperial/Chaos Knights are an army and have every right to be on the board. Imperial Guard players can bring a Super-Heavy tank if they want. it's no different to someone playing an all tank Spearhead army, or spamming Deathwing terminators and Apothecaries.

[MegaVolt87]

 

 

Honestly, even Knights are pushing it. 40k is not a game for titan scaled models.

 

I must disagree. 40k has had super-heavies such as Baneblades, Knights and Titans for years at this point. The scale of battles has increased massively compared to previous editions, and the game is all the richer for it. When I started, 1500 points was the standard and one could barely bring more than a handful of units depending on your army. Now, 2000 is the standard size but going smaller or larger doesn't negatively affect the gameplay.

 

It's time the community accepted they are here to stay and we get rid of the "if you turn up with a super heavy unannounced you're a bad player" mentality. Imperial/Chaos Knights are an army and have every right to be on the board. Imperial Guard players can bring a Super-Heavy tank if they want. it's no different to someone playing an all tank Spearhead army, or spamming Deathwing terminators and Apothecaries.

 

 

I would like to know, since killhammer isn't really a thing and even if you actually close out the game with an opponent wipe, you will be behind on objective scoring and just lose. Is that a fun game for you as a titan owner? Titans are just so off the chart as a super heavy class, vastly different to the tanks and knights. Even if I beat the titan guy, its a waste of time to play such a game as I am more likely to win. 

Edited May 4, 2022 by MegaVolt87

[Cpt_Reaper]

 

 

I would like to know, since killhammer isn't really a thing and even if you actually close out the game with an opponent wipe, you will be behind on objective scoring and just lose. Is that a fun game for you as a titan owner? Titans are just so off the chart as a super heavy class, vastly different to the tanks and knights. Even if I beat the titan guy, its a waste of time to play such a game as I am more likely to win. 

 

If Titans were balanced, taking the aforementioned Warhound as an example, one wouldn't take a single Warhound in a 2K army. One would take the Warhound and a small supporting force or rather a force including a Warhound.

 

If the Warhound was 750 points and not 2K points then it'd see more time on the table because it wouldn't be an auto lose. Same with the Reaver...I've faced one and in no universe is it worth 3K points.

[MegaVolt87]

Titans likely aren't balanced correctly due to the fact they are a pain to manufacture and distribute. If demand is low, they can be made to order essentially, considering its not something that ships in a timely fashion compared to other FW kits from what I have seen. Its just one of those products a company offers but does its best to not make appealing, but can't seem to want to discontinue, there as a flex to competitors etc. The name of that class of product escapes me at the moment, its a thing. 

[phandaal]

It's time the community accepted they are here to stay and we get rid of the "if you turn up with a super heavy unannounced you're a bad player" mentality.

In general, 40k players understand that the game is focused on battles between models in a certain size range. Going beyond that will make people think they are being subjected to a different kind of game without their agreement.

 

So a Warhound titan may have bad official rules, and that is a good thing. Any game with a titan should be something between friends, in which case they can soup up the titan's rules however they want beforehand.

[Cpt_Reaper]

 

It's time the community accepted they are here to stay and we get rid of the "if you turn up with a super heavy unannounced you're a bad player" mentality.

In general, 40k players understand that the game is focused on battles between models in a certain size range. Going beyond that will make people think they are being subjected to a different kind of game without their agreement.

 

So a Warhound titan may have bad official rules, and that is a good thing. Any game with a titan should be something between friends, in which case they can soup up the titan's rules however they want beforehand.

 

 

In general, no they don't. 40k is 40k. Everything that can be played is 40k. Want to run a micro army containing a handful of Custodes? That's 40k. Want to run a Brigade at 2k points of Imperial Guard. Still 40k. Want to bring a Acastus Knight Porphyrion (which is objectively better than a Warhound) with a small ad-mech force. Still 40k.

 

The Warhound having bad rules is not a good thing. If it were, where does that line of thought end? Knights having bad rules is good. Baneblades having bad rules is good. Land Raiders having bad rules is good...40k has no upper or lower limit where something is no longer 40k.

 

A Warhound should be a viable choice under 2k points, and a Reaver should be viable under 3k points. There is zero reason (beyond the aforementioned counterintuitive desire to keep them bad to keep demand down...I hate how much sense that makes) for titans to be bad. Same goes for Eldar titans.

[Captain Caine 24th]

To the initial question - Probable? No. Possible? Yes, it's even worked in a tournament setting.

• There was a player taking a warhound (megabolter, inferno) to 'Warhammer for Nola a 40kGT on 10/2/2021 - went LLLWL
• Another at mid-MO maelstrom on 11/6/21 (w/two inferno) went LLLLW.
• There's probably a few more, but the best coast pairings app is really fussy on android.

Possible explanations:

• Now, these lists may have fought a 'ringer' army (tournament organizer/staff person bringing an army to an event to fill out the brackets if people don't show), which could mean it was not really a hard fought battle. 
• It could also be that a new player having never seen a titan, castled up in their deployment zone, not really realizing that rushing out onto objectives would easily win the day.
• They may have faced that ork-minded player, looking for a good scrap and found great joy in hand-to-hand combat over any real objectives in the game.
• In another way, there could have been a catastrophic army design flaw in an opponent - skewed lists meant to over-leverage game mechanics often meet a hard counter. It's hard for me to imagine a warhound titan is a hard counter - regardless of whether you can kill it, as mentioned above, it loses terribly on primary objectives. But, i suppose it's possible.
• Finally, let's face it, some players are just really, really good. I don't know that it's the case in these examples, but I don't want to take away from their victory by saying it's pure luck either. A really good player with a bad army can, with some luck, beat a player using a new army.

So, assuming you have two inferno guns, you're on just the right map/board, and assuming you're facing just the right army... put the titan on the middle objective and kill anything that goes onto the next nearest two other objectives. Possible on a 4 objective map? So Battle lines mission from GT 2021? In Nachmund i think everything is 5 or 6 objectives. Conversion or Abandoned Sanctuaries have 5, so maybe it could work if you blocked a back objective, captured a middle, and killed anything on another two. Notably if it's player placed terrain you might be able to create a funnel in which they have to go through a titan to get 3 objectives (and if they are a really slow army without reserves it could be real problem). Still, all this should only work out to a tie on primary, secondaries are still a problem.

 

The opponent is going to have to screw up secondaries to win. I'm guessing you'd go for the categories Purge the Enemy, and No Mercy, No Respite - maybe you get lucky and can take Abhor the Witch. It seems possible you could score fairly high. 

 

That said, putting one model on the board - what a way to visualize and distill the core game mechanics, e.g. capturing objectives, target priority, movement, board control, points efficiency.

[Chaplain Augustus]

In short it would be a big stretch to achieve a win in matched play. If you own a warhound and want to get it on the table I salute you. Those models rule! I'd devise a custom scenario of some kind to make it challenging and fun for both players.

[Daimyo-Phaeron Lenoch]

In short it would be a big stretch to achieve a win in matched play. If you own a warhound and want to get it on the table I salute you. Those models rule! I'd devise a custom scenario of some kind to make it challenging and fun for both players.

"This is a Warhound Scout Titan. You have four turns to kill it before its Techpriest breaks through your jamming and calls in reinforcements. You can play to objectives, but they only matter if you can't kill it before the Secutarii show up to secure them for themselves. Have fun!"

 

Basically, I'd make it so that it was a two-step logic gate: you can win on objectives, but only if you can stop the enemy reinforcements from pushing you off them. (There'd be situational tweaking, of course, depending on if we're talking progressive objectives or end-of-game objectives, so you could alter when the titan's reinforcements arrive if need be, or change their deployment rules so they actually make a difference when they arrive.)

[phandaal]

 

The Warhound having bad rules is not a good thing. If it were, where does that line of thought end? Knights having bad rules is good. Baneblades having bad rules is good. Land Raiders having bad rules is good...40k has no upper or lower limit where something is no longer 40k.

 

Every slope is slippery, until it isn't. This one ends at the subject of this post, which is Titans. Although as stated earlier, even Knights are pushing it.

[MARK0SIAN]

I agree that Titans don’t really belong in normal games but there’s two problems. The first is that they are selling you rules for that Titan. If you’re buying those rules they should be suitable and usable in a standard game as the publication makes no claim that the Titan rules are only for apocalypse.

 

The far more important issue is this though: I think that most people (even if they don’t think Titans should be in normal games) would agree that, objectively, the points cost of the Titan is deliberately absurd. There is simply no way it is worth even half the points it costs. This means it is a deliberate choice by the designers to deter you from taking it in a game due to its points cost.

 

This is a problem because the moment you use points as anything other than a measure of how effective/powerful a unit is in a game you invalidate the whole business of points. Points shouldn’t be used to encourage one unit over another, otherwise you’re leaning too far into having to play what someone else thinks your army should look like instead of what you want it to look like. There’s already mechanisms to structure forces like detachments and obsec. Points can’t be part of that. You need to be able to trust points are like that for a reason, not because the rules writers might really love this model on games and hate others.

[Valkyrion]

Really then, any Titans, Mantas, Stormbirds, Phantoms, et al shouldn't have a points value, but just power level. 

I know they have a power level too, but their power level correlates to their points value - 100 power is 2000 points - but that needn't be the case. They could have no points value at all, thereby precluding their use in matched play games, but have a power level of, say, 50, so that when folk get together to play these big games against each other they aren't taking a massively overcosted unit. 

 

But it does have a points value, so it should be balanced against 2000 points of something else. Not everything else, that'd be impossible, but it's 2000 points and should have a 4/10 chance of winning against a same value opponent.  Everything should have a 4/10 chance of winning - what should increase or decrease your chance is the skill of the player and (sub)optimal match ups, but by and large any 2000 point force should have a 4/10 chance of beating any other 2000 point force. 50/50 chance is the desired but unattainable goal of balance and it's unrealistic to expect true 50/50 balance, but it's not unrealistic to expect better than <10% chance of winning an otherwise equal points game. 

[Cpt_Reaper]

 

Every slope is slippery, until it isn't. This one ends at the subject of this post, which is Titans. Although as stated earlier, even Knights are pushing it.

 

On this point I go from disagreeing with you to stating you are wrong. Knights are not "pushing it" as there is nothing to push. 

 

Titans are part of 40k. Something that is a part of the game belongs at the table, you just need the appropriately sized game. No special scenario, no "friendly game only"...just regular old 40k.

 

Warhounds, as per the subject of this topic, are objectively bad and cannot win a game if you bring one to a 2000 point game. Their opponent would have to actively lose the game. This applies to any and all non-knight super-heavies.