10th edition wishlisting/"How do we fix this mess?" thread

[Lemondish]

On 9/27/2022 at 4:38 PM, Evil Eye said:

It quite literally is. The book's contents, as written, have been superseded by the FAQ/contents of another book and are thus invalid. A prime example of this would be the points values in a Codex.

The solution to your problem is to just not print points costs in books.

Solved.

On 9/28/2022 at 12:38 AM, MysticTemplar said:

It is awful from a game perspective - in no small part because it means that if you're unlucky, you get to be stuck on last edition's design paradigm for most of the edition (or multiple editions, in the case of some older codices).

Not just that, but as they improve internal balance in an army they end up invariably skewing external balance. An army that has no bad choices and a great selection of powerful combos for you to build into will at once appear 'overpowered' when put up next to those books with so many inefficient units making up the core of their army. They get better at internal balance with each release but the current release schedule just means the external balance needs to be addressed elsewhere. That's largely why they do the balance updates and the Chapter Approved releases.

[Scribe]

19 minutes ago, Lemondish said:

The solution to your problem is to just not print points costs in books.

Or, they could do a better job, with a better rules set?

[Emperor Ming]

Fixed dates for the dataslates would be nice, rather than a guessing game

 

[Wulf Vengis]

I understand there are people who like this edition or feel it's fine, but this is a travesty.

Travesty: a false, absurd, or distorted representation of something.

Rhetorical: So everyone, what have we learned?

Serious: I think GW needs to pull their heads from their rectums and get their :cuss: together before I'm willing to invest into a new edition. My friends and i have been discussing going back to the 3rd-5th system with some house rules to bring newer units into the older system. I think we're going to stay in that area until GW can prove they actually know how to make a game again.

For 10th i can only hope they... I don't even know man, just KISS (keep it simple stupid). Ya for 10th i sincerely hope they just KISS.

[Scribe]

The fact people continue to defend GW has me rolling. Time to walk away for a day. 

[Skywrath]

5 minutes ago, Scribe said:

The fact people continue to defend GW has me rolling. Time to walk away for a day. 

That makes two of us. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It’s fine to discuss what they are doing wrong… in fact I don’t remember anyone here having said they are doing just splendid. That said the core rules are well balanced. Slagging the app is outside the discussion here imo. Mostly I think people want stratagems toned down as well as external balance for every codex.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

9 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

It’s fine to discuss what they are doing wrong… in fact I don’t remember anyone here having said they are doing just splendid. That said the core rules are well balanced. Slagging the app is outside the discussion here imo. Mostly I think people want stratagems toned down as well as external balance for every codex.

Someone did a few pages back, claiming that the game was just fine and people who think there’s an issue are all wrong and full of it.

[Wulf Vengis]

Let's not bicker about who said what. We can always go back and check but it's not pertinent nor helpful to the discussion.

That said, I'm not sure how much more we can discuss the actual topic without it just being wishes and fishes. Especially since the game developers are now invalidating their rulebooks after preorder and before actual sale. To me that is a very consumer unfriendly tactic and a very disgusting way of doing business, again, in my opinion. Which is a whole different conversation than the one(s) we've been having. Perhaps we open another thread for discussion on this matter.

As for this particular topic I'm not sure if there's any gas left in the tank here. We're pretty in agreement on what we think could change to better 10th but beyond that this feel like a wash to me, and any further discussion will most likely be far off topic.

Please prove me wrong.

Edited September 29, 2022 by Wulf Vengis

[Khornestar]

I responded to a much older post, my mistake:

An extreme example where they deliberately cut into their sales by nerfing some of the units before people could buy any of them? 

They could have just written a better book, which is I’m sure what we all would have wanted, but it is what it is.

They also could have reacted sooner, but then they would have had to acknowledge the full codex leaks making the rounds. For whatever reasons, they will not do this either.

Given the way their “system” works, short of just doing the job right in the first place, I don’t know how much sooner they could have  dropped this fix. 

But no matter how many times it’s repeated, there are far too many duds for this to be an observable pattern. Maybe they’re trying to make every new model and kit OP, but they are not succeeding if that’s the case.

Edited September 29, 2022 by Khornestar

[Lemondish]

I'm really quite surprised there are so many people this upset with GW that still stick around. That's certainly...something.

[Orange Knight]

32 minutes ago, Lemondish said:

I'm really quite surprised there are so many people this upset with GW that still stick around. That's certainly...something.

 

GW is such a strange beast. Over the last 20 years there has never been a point in which I haven't enjoyed collecting the models, or reading the novels. I take pride in putting armies together. 

The game itself goes through high and lows every few years. We're just in a bit of a rut right now.

Some people that haven't jumped from one edition to another, because they might be more recent hobbyists as an example, are facing such a prospect with trepidation, but in truth these transitions are often the most exciting and dynamic times to play the game.

[Scribe]

2 hours ago, Lemondish said:

I'm really quite surprised there are so many people this upset with GW that still stick around. That's certainly...something.

Considering the rules have been poor for 7 or 8 years or so, its a good thing the models and novels continue to entertain. I'll say. The difference in what I spent pre 7th, vs post 7th, is in the 10's of thousands. :)

[DesuVult]

It bugs me that GW clearly can make a good well functioning game and then just kind of doesn't or drops the ball in weird ways.  HH 2e is so well written it seems only the beardiest of grognards are loudly complaining and generally have pretty weak complaints for disliking the system as whole.  I am in the camp of disliking reactions but they are so limited it is fine, they just broke one reaction through poor wording and it still isn't that bad because of how rarely they can be employed and that we have nice features like the legions feeling unique and fighting on generally even footing.  AoS is in a similar boat, solid rules with armies fighting on generally even footing, except Pitched Battles upends a lot with the introduction of Bounty Hunters, though that is small enough in local communities that can be outright ignored.

 

9e currently seems to have GW's flaws writ large.  Instead of problems coming from singular rule changes entire codices and weird erratas keep throwing things all over the place.  The core rules for 8e and 9e are mostly fine but codices, updates, and erratas keep piling on nonsense.  I play Imperial Fists, GW errated core gameplay concepts to my army.  Stratagems are a mess even after cutting CP in half at the start and secondaries are insane currently.  30k is supposed to be the more complex game but it doesn't feel that way currently to me with the pages of stratagems and importance of picking secondaries.  You also generally need to keep up with GW's changes much more in 40k.  There have been multiple changes to detachments and list building done in competitive format updates and the secondary changes are huge with the changes to CP and secondaries being part of how GW balances armies.  If you do not play with current secondaries many matchups are much worse, like tyranids and necrons.  Necrons are held up by secondaries while tyranids are pulled down by them.  This is a major issue I feel.  When tyranids and necrons clash it is a damage check for the tyranid player to table the necron player before they score 90 points.  The necron player isn't going to win a fight, despite it being Warhammer 40k where there is only war, the necron player just throws some destroyers in the way and tries to score while the tyranid player tries to kill him.  It isn't even like the tyranid players needs some over the top meta list, tyranid warriors and a hive tyrant are the core of a winning tyranid strategy and in my experience the biggest thing holding back many tyranid players from fielding hordes of warriors and fexes has been the cost of warriors.  Some books are just vastly better written than many others to a frankly unreasonable degree with better subfactions, stratagems, and more efficient datasheets.

 

10e I would like to see take an AoS approach to stratagems, slim them down a lot and make them come from somebody instead of being like a special ability card you play.  I would also like to see secondaries drastically reduced in importance if not removed.  My dream would be for us to get all the codices at once so they can be reasonably balanced against each other and everyone gets their cool thing at the same time.

[Blade of Sigismund]

9 hours ago, Mandragola said:

My understanding from the article is that they only tested the LoV against other new books, Tyrannids and Eldar, which also came out with awful balance issues on release. If they did indeed test those books in a sort of bubble (perhaps to keep the LoV secret?) that would explain how they were all such a mess. It would also be incredibly stupid.

I'd be cross about this but I'm already checked out of 40k. I get to be cross about the FAQs for 30k instead, which are arguably worse.

The one thing I don't and have never agreed with is the idea that GW does this on purpose for sales. They wouldn't have nerfed the book before it got released if that was the case - they'd have let everyone buy three land fortresses before raising their price by 70 points each and nerfing their guns.

That was likely the plan. What changed is that the players and tournament scene don't appear to have bought into it. My local shop didn't sell any of the boxes on release day.

[Lord Marshal]

3 hours ago, Lemondish said:

I'm really quite surprised there are so many people this upset with GW that still stick around. That's certainly...something.

Because for the majority of people you play 40k/AoS or you don't wargame at all. It's the unfortunate "too big to fail" of GW. A huge population of players who you can wander into a store and find a pick-up-game anywhere with is more valuable to most people than the quality of the ruleset.

Edited September 30, 2022 by Lord Marshal

[Sothalor]

Coming at things from the perspective of one who's much more interested in reading, lore, and modelling than gaming, I have one particular pipe dream regarding a more proactive "living" ruleset for 10th or further down the line.

I can see the argument for digital format rules when it comes to frequent updates, balance changes, point changes, mechanics changes, rules FAQ, etc.

If they do move towards that direction, my wishlist is for continued paper books as dedicated lore/background/fluff, with a return towards some of the 4th/5th edition style codices (I wasn't around for 1st - 3rd, so forgive my ignorance there).

I want books like how Forgeworld used to do Imperial Armour volumes. I want deep dives into a faction's organization, culture, history. Timelines, historical characters, short stories. I want a return to full-page descriptions with art for each unit type. I want lore blurbs for each piece of equipment and relics. In-depth narratives of notable campaigns. More detailed character bios.

Heck, don't even have printed rules/datasheets in the physical books if they're going to go digital. Separate the consumption of rules from the lore; allow people to buy well-produced, high-quality, dedicated army background books. Put a QR code or something in each one for access to a digital rules packet. Let people purchase the rules as a standalone thing. That way, the rules can be updated however frequently they choose.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

4 hours ago, Lemondish said:

I'm really quite surprised there are so many people this upset with GW that still stick around. That's certainly...something.

I love the lore and story.

even when I was in the navy and not actually involved in the hobby at all, if someone asked me, I still would have told them I’m a son of sanguinius first, sailor second.

I wanted to get back into gaming at least a year before i returned but i couldn’t find a game that scratched the same customization itch as 40K so I didn’t even really want to come back, but I couldn’t find any other option.

if it hasn’t been clear from recent posts i am back to looking for other games and think I found one. If the recent guard rumors come true I’m dropping guard completely until they get another new codex that undoes those changes, and all the money I would have spent on Kasrkin, and new sentinels, and a cool new tank will be spent on blood and plunder stuff.

i feel like I’m already one foot out the door, in an abusive relationship, just waiting them to do that one last reason to override nostalgia and dump them.

[Ahzek451]

Don't want to just say what others have already said, but just wanted to comment on the video. While it was nice that for the first time I can recall GW actually gave an apology, I cringed when they said "this time" when mentioning getting it wrong. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

At least it’s a small step forward.

[Pacific81]

9 hours ago, Lemondish said:

I'm really quite surprised there are so many people this upset with GW that still stick around. That's certainly...something.

I'll be honest you could have looked at a thread from 10-12 years ago and read the same thing! GW has great settings for its games, lovely miniatures and has the advantage of being ubiquitous and easy to access, but quite often the rules and balancing for their games stinks. Annoyingly its their most popular game (40k) that I would say consistently is the worst, and yet is generally put forward as a competitive or tournament game, despite it being rather unsuited for it with the constant cycle release business model.

I would say Blood Bowl, Epic (depending on version), Space Hulk are much better designed and structured games, and have far fewer of the ':cuss:' moments of nonsensical or poorly thought out rules. But, they are either out of production or much less popular with a vastly smaller player base, which is a great shame. Its like having all that great mucic out there and people keep going back to 'N-Sync Greatest Hits' as the only music they can listen to, and it puts them off all music as a result xD

Edited September 30, 2022 by Pacific81

[Slave to Darkness]

13 hours ago, Lemondish said:

I'm really quite surprised there are so many people this upset with GW that still stick around. That's certainly...something.

I love 40k, I dont love GW. I play older editions until GW fixes whats current, as for minis I buy third party, 3d prints, hit up ebay or if its really expensive I look to less savoury places. 

People can still enjoy 40k without bowing down to GW.

 

 

[Skywrath]

23 minutes ago, Slave to Darkness said:

I love 40k, I dont love GW. I play older editions until GW fixes whats current, as for minis I buy third party, 3d prints, hit up ebay or if its really expensive I look to less savoury places. 

People can still enjoy 40k without bowing down to GW.

That about summarises my view as well  (minus the playing older editions) - until GW fixes their problems, don't indulge their lack of professionalism when other people can do it better.

[Scribe]

Since my post was deleted in the now closed thread.

If anyone wants to pay my Salary for the year, I'm taking offers for writing a rules set, apparently. ;)

[Special Officer Doofy]

8 minutes ago, Scribe said:

Since my post was deleted in the now closed thread.

If anyone wants to pay my Salary for the year, I'm taking offers for writing a rules set, apparently. ;)

Too easy. Do that other thing and launch something into orbit.