A Black Templars "successor"?

[Valkyrion]

I presume I could run a DIY as black templars, using everything in the Black Templar codex, just painted green or whatever. I know they wouldn't be BT successors officially, they'd be the Templars of Doom or whatever, but there's nothing to prevent me from doing so, right? 

And nothing from the codex would be out of bounds from a rules POV. I could still make my own Chapter Master and Master of Sanctity et al, except the Champion.  (some things may be....distasteful....from a fluff point of view, but forget that for the time being). 

 

I kinda want a melee focused marine army and I really like the new templar models, and I'm torn between using the BT models as a BT "successor" or using the White Scars rules, but think that using Templar models as White Scars is a bit gamey? 

 

 

[Brother Tyler]

Correct.

While there's no official lore saying that the Black Templars don't have any Successors/Descendants, many players are firmly of the opinion that they do not. So if you plan to develop a DIY created from the gene-seed of the Black Templars, prepare for the pushback. It's always fun to watch the rabid replies when anyone dares to suggest that a Chapter may have been created from the gene-seed of the Black Templars.

Despite that, there are many players that do believe that the Black Templars could have Successors/Descendants, and quite a few DIYs created under that premise can be found here at the B&C.

The bottom line, though, is that none of us knows for certain whether or not there are/have/can be Black Templars Successors/Descendants.

As far as being "gamey" what's the problem? As long as your models accurately reflect the weapons/wargear/armour of whatever they're supposed to represent, I don't see a problem. If they're not painted like Black Templars, and if your opponent understands that these models over here represent X (and they don't confuse them with Y), there shouldn't be an issue. After all, people use those muscle-armour bits from the Blood Angels line for all kinds of non-Blood Angels [successor] armies all the time.

[Marshal Reinhard]

1. You're free to do whatever you want. Nothing prevents you from doing anything, save the consent of the player you're playing against, possible tournament rules etc.

But you can totally make green or blue or pink templars and play them as whatever. Heck you could even have the lore that they're the real deal black templars themselves, just your crusade is deviating a lot. You're the boss.

2. Of course, lore will tie things down a bit. Templars don't officially have any of their successors. A lot of IF successors do have Templar or Knights in the name though. A lot of people design their own IF successors and play them with BT rules. Honestly It's fine from a respecting the lore pov, if you ask me.

3. Rules. You can still decide to play your dudes with whatever rules you want, keeping 1 in mind (proxying or counts as-ing might not fly with your opponent or in a tournemnt setting for instance. But you can totally use White scar rules. But you do lose access to all the BT specific rules, just not the models. They have to be used to represent stuff from the main codex and WS supplement

[Valkyrion]

They wouldn't be Black Templar successors, they'd be https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Imperial_Paladins these guys, for instance. Or the Dark Templars or Knights Obstinate, you dig? 

I'd not fluff them out as genuine Black Templar successors.

 

I wouldn't use Helbrecht or even Crusader squads as GW intended, probably as Veteran Intercessors or something, but would use the super cool models of them, and SB, and EC and the Marshal and so on. 

 

Regarding the rules; Using BT models as White Scars seems somehow sketchy. Like my opponent couldn't possibly guess that these blue coloured black templar models are actually White Scars, you know?  I'm probably overthinking it, but if I was making a chapter using Space Wolves models that used Raven Guard rules, I'd throw in some Raven Guard icons and feathers and things to try and reinforce the point that they aren't Space Wolves. Chucking lightning bolts on a Templar seems too unthematic, like I'm forcing it in rather than it be a natural part of their iconography. 

Once the dice start rolling I'm sure no one would care, but it'd be easy enough for an opponent to get mixed up when my blue templar storm wizard starts psychic powering when he thought it was a black templar in disguise. 

[Slave to Darkness]

Im doing Knights of Lazarus, basicaly silver 'templars' with a green cross instead of red, lore wise they recruit from a medieval world hence the Knightly look to them and they have a similar organisation to the Black Templars, you telling me out of ALL of the existing chapters the Templars are the only ones who train their scouts by placing them in tactical squads? 

[Brother Tyler]

So would it be accurate to say that your question is less about creating a "Black Templars Successor" and more about using the Black Templars rules for another Chapter?

[Valkyrion]

So would it be accurate to say that your question is less about creating a "Black Templars Successor" and more about using the Black Templars rules for another Chapter?

 

Yes, apologies if I wasn't clear. My initial query was to ensure I could still make my own Chapter Command, bar the champion, but basically yes. 

[Marshal Reinhard]

They wouldn't be Black Templar successors, they'd be https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Imperial_Paladins these guys, for instance. Or the Dark Templars or Knights Obstinate, you dig? 

I'd not fluff them out as genuine Black Templar successors.

 

I wouldn't use Helbrecht or even Crusader squads as GW intended, probably as Veteran Intercessors or something, but would use the super cool models of them, and SB, and EC and the Marshal and so on. 

 

Regarding the rules; Using BT models as White Scars seems somehow sketchy. Like my opponent couldn't possibly guess that these blue coloured black templar models are actually White Scars, you know?  I'm probably overthinking it, but if I was making a chapter using Space Wolves models that used Raven Guard rules, I'd throw in some Raven Guard icons and feathers and things to try and reinforce the point that they aren't Space Wolves. Chucking lightning bolts on a Templar seems too unthematic, like I'm forcing it in rather than it be a natural part of their iconography. 

Once the dice start rolling I'm sure no one would care, but it'd be easy enough for an opponent to get mixed up when my blue templar storm wizard starts psychic powering when he thought it was a black templar in disguise. 

Basically comes down to what I was hinting at earlier under my first point. You need your opponents consent basically. Or to follow a tournaments rules, they might be stricter.

 

But really, nothing else prevents you from playing picturesque ultramarines as space wolves or templars. A lot of people may frown upon it. And you need to have modelled your models correctly to have all the correct gear and such, otherwise we get into proxy territory. But nothing's preventing you. Save for getting that opponents consent thing. You shouldn't be in the situation that your opponent wouldn't have dreamt of your Templar force is actually White scars, because prior to the game, this should be the first thing you tell him.

[Closet Skeleton]

I kinda want a melee focused marine army and I really like the new templar models, and I'm torn between using the BT models as a BT "successor" or using the White Scars rules, but think that using Templar models as White Scars is a bit gamey? 

 

There's nothing gamey about using basic marine body parts to make a marine unit. Before any BT models were released White Dwarf featured BT armies full of Dark Angels models because those were the only cloth over armour ones available.

[Antarius]

As long as you tell your opponent what’s what, there’s absolutely no problem or “gameyness” with painting BT models pink and using them as BA. As long as all models accurately represent their armaments, equipment, etc. - some people might think pink BT look bad but that’s a different story.

 

Fluffwise, I’d be wary of straying into “super secret Xtra special superior black templar successors”-territory, but it doesn’t seem like that’s what you’re doing anyway.

[Khornestar]

They’d be whatever you say they are, frater. No one but you may determine that.

[Mike8404]

 

I kinda want a melee focused marine army and I really like the new templar models, and I'm torn between using the BT models as a BT "successor" or using the White Scars rules, but think that using Templar models as White Scars is a bit gamey?

There's nothing gamey about using basic marine body parts to make a marine unit. Before any BT models were released White Dwarf featured BT armies full of Dark Angels models because those were the only cloth over armour ones available.

 

Are you sure? Not saying you're wrong, but if I'm not mistaken, Black Templars had tabards long before Dark Angels had adopted robes on minis and what not.

 

Also, I agree, it would be gamey. You could claim they're another Fists successor or maybe a divergent crusade

Edited May 20, 2022 by Brother Tyler
Fixed BBCode

[Sword Brother Adelard]

No, he's right about DA robes being before Templar Tabards.

[Brother Tyler]

Dark Angels had robed models back in 2nd edition. The Black Templars were a codex Chapter at that time. The watershed image of them, that used on the 3rd edition codex/starter set, featured robes. When the ZEALous Black Templars were retconned in that edition, the Index Astartes article and Codex: Armageddon gave them tabards instead. Since tabarded models didn't exist, many players used the robed Dark Angels models. The tabard models/bits came later.

 

Regardless, throughout the years players have commonly used models/bits from one Chapter for another, never feeling constrained to using "Black Templars" models only for Black Templars.

 

You can see an early example of a "modern" (i.e., non-Codex) Black Templars army here. The only tabard in sight is that of the first Emperor's Champion model. The robed model is a Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain. None of the other Black Templars models has a tabard because no other tabarded models existed at that time (aside from Librarians nasty witches).

[Sword Brother Adelard]

There was the 3rd edition captain model that came with the limited edition of the starter box, he would have been the first, as he predated the first Champion model.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Tabards look cool but I often imagine Dark Angels tripping on theirs.

[Brother Tyler]

There was the 3rd edition captain model that came with the limited edition of the starter box, he would have been the first, as he predated the first Champion model.

I think you're talking about this guy:

And there was also this guy:

Too bad he later did something so detestable that he's now considered a traitor.

And naturally there was the first Emperor's Champion model:

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5065/5690309797_2dc0dd3264_z.jpg

For rank-and-file members of the Chapter there were no tabards until later, leaving players to either make their own (green stuff for the win) or use the robed 2nd edition Dark Angels models.

All three of the models shown above were used by players in various other Chapters (I painted one of my ECs up in Ultramarines colors, for example). In fact, at one point the Emperor's Champion wasn't limited to the Black Templars, being available for all Chapters.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Yeah, that's him. He was sold as a generic captain, as that's how I got him, and there's nothing Templar specific about him.

 

Otherwise, it wasn't until 4th that the boys got their Tabards.

[Brother Jobu]

A couple of those OG robed Dark Angels that made their way into many Black Templar Crusades.

[Medjugorje]

as we dont have successors i have a new idea.

 

How good would it be if our chapter tactic could be

- RIGHTEOUS ZEAL (as it is now)

- 5+++ against MW (as it is now)

- choose one chapter tactic (to show that each crusade is very different to another)

[Lord Blackwood]

Honestly fam , I  paint my templars in legion colors because I can , no one can tell me otherwise if I want to call them Golden Knights of Dorn and I have never had an opponent balk at me explaining to them that they are templars.  

Play your Army King 

Achieve your immersion and hobby satisfaction  in the manner that brings you the most joy , and fills fills you with the most zeal. 

You aint tryin to cheat anybody , so do you. 

[Canadian_F_H]

This has come up often.  Black Templars don't have successors in lore, because in setting, (i think) all successors are defined by from which of the original 9 loyalists legions their Gene-seed is derived originally, I don't know if successors of successors makes a whole lot of sense in canonical terminology.  tho some foundings have occurred to divide up chapters that have gotten too big (we ignore that anyways) and i know it has been mentioned that veterans of any chapter might be pulled to lead and train a new founding chapter.  not sure if that has ever happened with Templars tho.  (but do whatever you want to do in my opinion, certainly don't let anybody online at GW or your FLGS decide for you what you can or cannot do with the things you spend your hard earned money on)

 

All that said, it seamed pretty clear to me, especially back in 3rd/4th edition, the reason they emphasized the diversity and independence of the crusade fleets combined with our disregard for "The Codex Astartes" was meant to create some breathing room for us to interpret things differently for our own armies.  Each crusade operates largely isolated from the rest of the chapter for years, decades and even centuries at a time.  it would be interesting to see if there is an official lore blurb out there that calls out any particular crusades for their particular extended period without contact. 

 

BTs have been crusading for 10,000+ years.  If somebody wanted to make up a crusade that was divergent from BT main. perhaps due to a combination of contriubting factors.  A person's divergent Crusade lore (successor standin) recipe is simple enough.

 

• Crusade has been operating for over a millennium (perhaps over 2?)
• Culture drift due to extended periods out of contact with the rest of the chapter
  • crusading thru the fringes of the galaxy?
  • just to busy purging to check their email?
• perhaps leaning heavily into less common modes of war for BTs
  • because of particular enemies?
  • because of particular allies?
    • i think it would be a bit on brand to stubbornly be counter to a common ally during certain campaigns
• culture changes due to recruitment possibly contributing to heraldic changes 
  • its a big galaxy, lots of different worlds, whatever worlds your crusade pulls from could/should have some sort of effect

 

 

anyways,

I would like to see such a project.

 

[Sword Brother Adelard]

The post by Brother Tyler I linked to earlier suggests alternative lingo for successors and successors of successors, it's worth a read.

[Brother Tyler]

On 6/24/2022 at 8:33 PM, Medjugorje said:

as we dont have successors ...

Please cite official canon material that substantiates this premise. I'm not aware of GW ever saying that there "aren't" any successors/descendants of the Black Templars, or even anything suggesting that the Black Templars gene-seed (ultimately tracing back to the VIIth Legion) wouldn't be used in the creation of any successors/descendants. After all, there were Primaris greyshields of the Black Templars, so there's the potential for such to have been used to create successors/descendants instead of joining the Black Templars. When you consider the fact that the Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Space Wolves have successors, it's difficult to envision the Black Templars being outright denied the privilege of siring one or more of their own.

Admittedly, I haven't read all of the canon material. I'm limited to the rulebooks, codices, and codex supplements. I've only read two of the Black Library books (and those were pre-Primaris), so perhaps there are one or more statements backing up the [hobbyist] claims of no Black Templars successors/descendants in the stories that I haven't read.

Based on the official material that I have read, the situation is simply that GW has never mentioned any successors/descendants of the Black Templars. There may be one or more such Chapters, or there may be none. I lean towards the number being few or none since GW has never outright said that there are any such successors/descendants, nor have they hinted at any existing. And the lack of such being named/portrayed/described in the latest codex supplement seems to hint that, for now at least, GW isn't willing to commit to there being any successors/descendants of the Black Templars. But that's just an inference and it's possible that there are more Black Templars successors/descendants than I suspect.

Hobbyists shouldn't assert personal opinion as fact without having substantiating evidence, or at least making it clear that the conclusion they are presenting is based on personal interpretation and opinion and is not definitive fact. Others might mistakenly believe these opinions and then regurgitate them to others, perpetuating myths that may or may not be true.

[Marshal Reinhard]

You're asking him to prove a negative. There's no mentions of any successors, so we have no basis to think there's been any. Sure, it's not definitive in any way and if other successors have had successors,  it's not an impossible sell. But the only possible proof would be in the positive direction, ie "the Black Templars have had successors because chapter x is/was a successor to them"