HH 2.0 The Tetrarchs of Ultramar: XIIIth Legion Tactica

[Slips]

Discussion topic with regards to the Ultramarines in the 2nd edition of the Horus Heresy system.

Edited July 13, 2022 by Slips

[N1SB]

Hi Brothers, we're (B&C) back, and now HH 2.0 is officially out and I've reviewed the final rules at the Warhammer Store with friends.

On this topic, 2 words: Invictarus Suzerains.  2 more words that immediately follow: are awesome.  Also thematic, narrative, etc., but on top of all that, also very awesome.

It begins with our experiences back in HH 1.0, the Pride of the Legion Rite of War, that allowed standard Terminators to become Troops and scoring units...a simple yet competitive list-building strategy.  That still remains true in HH 2.0, so it was something I immediately gravitated to...until I spotted Suzerains.  Here's what Suzerains bring:

• Artificer Armour and Boarding Shields, so they're 2+/5++ (like Tartaros Terminators)
• Except their statline comes with 3 attacks (better than Terminators that only have 2 attacks)
• They come with special Power Axes (factored into their cost) and can upgrade to Thunder Hammers (cheaply)
• And they inherently have the Line subtype (they're scoring units), yet NOT Bulky (easier to transport, important later)

Result - they're like better Assault Terminators thanks to that extra attack, yet also more tactically flexible as they're inherently Line/scoring units, so they free up your Rite of War.

Here's the clincher for me - they can go in Drop Pods.  Because they're inherently a Line subtype to free up the Rite of War, and they're NOT Bulky, they can use the Drop Pods Rite of War.  The hidden cost for a lot of these Legion-specific Elite units is in their Dedicated Transport, they usually need a Land Raider Proteus (the old, small one).

I'm planning another list as my main project, but I'm thinking of Drop Pod Suzerains as an Allied Detachment (and yes, this Rite of War can be Allies, not restricted to Primary Detachments).  Probably my Unlucky XIIIth concept (of censured UM sent away from Ultramar, to join other Legions when the Heresy broke out).

Credit to Brother Infyrana here on B&C and (Imperial) Compliance Officer Francis at my meta (he's an actual compliance officer).

[infyrana]

On 6/24/2022 at 8:10 PM, N1SB said:

< >

Here's the clincher for me - they can go in Drop Pods.  Because they're inherently a Line subtype to free up the Rite of War, and they're NOT Bulky, they can use the Drop Pods Rite of War.  The hidden cost for a lot of these Legion-specific Elite units is in their Dedicated Transport, they usually need a Land Raider Proteus (the old, small one).

I'm planning another list as my main project, but I'm thinking of Drop Pod Suzerains as an Allied Detachment (and yes, this Rite of War can be Allies, not restricted to Primary Detachments).  Probably my Unlucky XIIIth concept (of censured UM sent away from Ultramar, to join other Legions when the Heresy broke out).

Credit to Brother Infyrana here on B&C and (Imperial) Compliance Officer Francis at my meta (he's an actual compliance officer).

Oh I see where you went with this!  I like it, thank you for the mention but all credit to you, I was just asking questions and seeing what came out the other side :)  I've been so caught in checking the Creeping Death RoW for DG, that allies haven't been viable for consideration.  But I have another small idea, I'm just waiting on the PDF units and those plastic Breacher models many of us are looking forward to - I think the pod idea is a great way to apply the Suzerain allies and may work even better.

[Cruor Vault]

Invictarii are amazing and all...  But has anyone started looking and the absurd level of customization and utility the Logos RoW mixed with Guilliman handing out special rules brings to our lists? 

I'm slobbering over Destroyer Squads smashing other marines in melee when Furious charge plus Rad Grenades make them wound T4 on 2s.  Bump in WS5 and +1 to charge from the Logos they're a force to be feared!

[MichaelCarmine]

You forgot to mention, that the Suzeiran Boarding Shield grants a 4+ Invul. in thhe Assault phase and is the only Version of a BS, that allows you to use an additional CCW, meaining the Suzeirans have a base of 4 Attacks in CC! =]

[N1SB]

13 hours ago, MichaelCarmine said:

You forgot to mention, that the Suzeiran Boarding Shield grants a 4+ Invul. in thhe Assault phase and is the only Version of a BS, that allows you to use an additional CCW, meaining the Suzeirans have a base of 4 Attacks in CC! =]

I legit did not even realise this, thank you for giving me more invuln and even more attacks, oh my cog.  Good stuff, great stuff  

[Orange Knight]

The Invectarus look very impressive. 

I also love the mix of rules that the Logos and Guilliman unlock in tandem.

Edited September 13, 2022 by Orange Knight

[Cruor Vault]

So...

Fulmentarus, Locutarus, Nemesis Destroyers.  All look Excellent, though I do find the Locutarus' power swords to be pretty hilarious as none of them but the sergeant can use Duelists Edge and the Argean swords are FANTASTIC.

Edited July 1, 2022 by Cruor Vault
I can't read

[Frater Cornelius]

What's the consensus on vehicles in UM. The Logos ROW and Bobby G give their bonuses exclusively to infantry. How would the various Dreads, the new Kratos and the host of other tanks fit in here?

The main synergy I see so far is that a small unit or a rhino can "mark" a unit and the big boys unleash their dakka with hit bonus.

Alternatively, you could scrap the aggressive vehicles and focus on various transports instead.

Do you have any ideas on how to implement tanks?

[Charlo]

Rite bonus or no, +1 to hit with tanks is awesome. 

[Cruor Vault]

9 hours ago, Frater Cornelius said:

What's the consensus on vehicles in UM. The Logos ROW and Bobby G give their bonuses exclusively to infantry. How would the various Dreads, the new Kratos and the host of other tanks fit in here?

The main synergy I see so far is that a small unit or a rhino can "mark" a unit and the big boys unleash their dakka with hit bonus.

Alternatively, you could scrap the aggressive vehicles and focus on various transports instead.

Do you have any ideas on how to implement tanks?

FYI: Guilliman gives his bonus to all Ultramarines units barring vehicles (so bikes/speeders/dreads gain it).

Having one or two vehicles in a Logos list feels like a must.  I'm strongly leaning towards a Sicaran Arcus for some sweet sweet S8 AP2 Terminator destruction! 

As Ultramarines I think we are contractually obligated to bring at leas 4 rhinos right?  I also think a Couple of Helical Targeting Array dreads make for some nice DS defense in the unlikely event that someone actually pulls of a decent Deep Strike on us.  I'm drawn to a Contemptor with Double Plasma Cannons and a Deredeo of some kind.

[Orange Knight]

It must be said that some of the Ultramarine specific units that were added in the Forgeworld PDF look very compelling.

The Locutarus in particular seem excellent, but I will wait until GW release a Heresy jump pack infantry or upgrade  kit before I commit to making a squad.

[Frater Cornelius]

@Cruor Vault I completely missed that Dreads aren't vehicles. Uuuh, that means that I can play my infantry + dread marching list that I like in 40k. Still a shame that Logos is so meh, but maybe it'll surprise me.

Rhinos are pretty decent with UM, I would assume. They tag units for the Legion Tactics and have all that usual utility. MSU also seems like a good choice, because you have more tagging units.

By the way, yet another thread infected with the italics. I am getting some serious nurgle vibes here.

[Cruor Vault]

On 7/3/2022 at 4:19 PM, Orange Knight said:

It must be said that some of the Ultramarine specific units that were added in the Forgeworld PDF look very compelling.

The Locutarus in particular seem excellent, but I will wait until GW release a Heresy jump pack infantry or upgrade  kit before I commit to making a squad.

The Locutarus are amazing!  I'm also stunned at how good the Nemesis Destroyers are.  Not single thing jumps out at me, but once you start looking at the combos their gear and abilities can bring to a Logos/Gman list....  It's scary.

[OttoVonAwesome]

Locutarus were overlooked in 1.0 and were amazing then and now I wanna base my list on them. I'm not thrilled with the nemesis destroyers The bolters don't breach but they do look like a good unit to start a buff with if your not using mass rhinos or they are all destroyed since they have a few debuffs they can add. Tag rad then tag fall back and have at it knowing either way your forcing a check. Overall I just like them for the range they offer. Fulmentarus... Wow breaching and pinning that's a thing of beauty.

[Cruor Vault]

7 hours ago, OttoVonAwesome said:

Locutarus were overlooked in 1.0 and were amazing then and now I wanna base my list on them. I'm not thrilled with the nemesis destroyers The bolters don't breach but they do look like a good unit to start a buff with if your not using mass rhinos or they are all destroyed since they have a few debuffs they can add. Tag rad then tag fall back and have at it knowing either way your forcing a check. Overall I just like them for the range they offer. Fulmentarus... Wow breaching and pinning that's a thing of beauty.

Cheap Access to Rad missiles is pretty good. 

But it's more that they come equipped for basically anything but dealing with Terminators. 

If you're running a Gman/Logos list the proper combo of buffs can make them into a lethal threat to just about any other unit of power armor. 

Furious Charge plus Rad Grenades means wounding T4 on 2s in melee. 

Throw in the +1WS from the logos and suddenly you've got assault marines who hit on 3s and wound on 2s against most other marine units.  Even if they're not punching through power armor that is still a LOT of wounds coming out of them.

They're running stubborn and counter attack, so they're not likely to be easily shifted by moral or cheap bully units.

Assault Bolters (and suspensor missiles) means they can move very quickly up the field, then shoot and charge something.

And finally the Harrower ammo gives you another opportunity to force the opponent to make a moral check.

Altogether they're an awesome unit with superb versatility.

[Astartes Consul]

What are people's preferred use of the compulsory MoS / Damocles in the LL RoW? Any thoughts on getting the most out of them?

[Papy carni]

Good day everyone,

I've a bit of a problem with the ultramarines 2.0, I keep reading that they're good, really synergise well etc...
And... I don't see it. And I've looked at the rules multiples times. 

The new version of the legion rule archieve the rare success of being a nerf and more pain to deal with, as instead of just putting a marked token to the unit targeted, you now have to have multiple pairs of token to associate the marked unit  to the unit who marked it for those 6" auras. And it completly broke the idea of synergized army, as now, front units work for front units and back units for the back units.

Logos Lectora is a no go for me, as for every bonus there is an associated penalty. So basically, at every mixed turn (3 to 5) you've to choose if you boost Close combat and F... up your shooting or the opposite. And yes I know: "Guilliman", but Guilliman is a Primarch, not always there.

Special units are good yes, but a part from locutarus, they're all elite, an already cramped section, and you've no RoW to move them to other slots. So 1 or 2 and you're done.

So I know this sounds like a rant, which it is not. I like ultra, like the lore, the color scheme is really something I'd like to try, but they feels really "subpar" rule wise.

It's just I feel like I missing something when reading analysis and threads like here,  but at the same time I pretty sure of what I've read in the rules book and my conclusions.

Edited July 26, 2022 by Papy carni

[Orange Knight]

I see what they are going for, but it can be difficult to execute in practice.

You're simply supposed to adjust the army on the fly to be better at what the enemy doesn't specialise in. If you are facing an army that focuses on shooting at the expense of close assault, you can bolster your units in close combat and double down on something the opposing force can't match you in. The same is true in reverse if you are facing an army that is running towards you hoping to get into combat.

I don't particularly rate the shooting bonus outside of a few select instances, as sacrificing all movement is difficulty to do in any turn. However, combining Guilliman and the Logos to give units both furious charge or fleet AND a bonus to weapon skill can turn the balance of combat pretty significantly. Of course you have to build around some of these rules, and I don't feel that you need to make use of every aspect of the Logos, or even use it every turn.

[Runefyre]

On 7/25/2022 at 8:07 AM, Astartes Consul said:

What are people's preferred use of the compulsory MoS / Damocles in the LL RoW? Any thoughts on getting the most out of them?

I've had good success having my MoS babysit a 10 man plasma support squad. In my lists that support squad has been a very valuable fire base and the MoS helps me handle the negatives from Logos. Cognis Signum + Aegis of Wisdom means you're still hitting on 2's in Retribution Strike, which is pretty great. 

[Runefyre]

On 7/26/2022 at 12:48 PM, Papy carni said:

Good day everyone,

I've a bit of a problem with the ultramarines 2.0, I keep reading that they're good, really synergise well etc...
And... I don't see it. And I've looked at the rules multiples times. 

The new version of the legion rule archieve the rare success of being a nerf and more pain to deal with, as instead of just putting a marked token to the unit targeted, you now have to have multiple pairs of token to associate the marked unit  to the unit who marked it for those 6" auras. And it completly broke the idea of synergized army, as now, front units work for front units and back units for the back units.

Logos Lectora is a no go for me, as for every bonus there is an associated penalty. So basically, at every mixed turn (3 to 5) you've to choose if you boost Close combat and F... up your shooting or the opposite. And yes I know: "Guilliman", but Guilliman is a Primarch, not always there.

Special units are good yes, but a part from locutarus, they're all elite, an already cramped section, and you've no RoW to move them to other slots. So 1 or 2 and you're done.

So I know this sounds like a rant, which it is not. I like ultra, like the lore, the color scheme is really something I'd like to try, but they feels really "subpar" rule wise.

It's just I feel like I missing something when reading analysis and threads like here,  but at the same time I pretty sure of what I've read in the rules book and my conclusions.

Ultramarines Legion trait is definitely not the greatest, but I've been able to leverage it to decent effect in Logos Lectora. As far as I'm concerned the Logos is part of the Ultramarines Legion trait, I can't imagine not running it, the synergy between the commands and Aegis are very satisfying. 

I've have quite a few games under my belt with my Logos Lectora list, and I can confidently say Logos is far from useless. I haven't lost a game yet. It's definitely a Thinking Man's Rite of War, you have to carefully consider how to manage the negatives of each Command while maximizing the benefits. A combined arms list with a mix of infantry, vehicles, and maybe a dreadnought or two has worked pretty well for me. Vehicles are my lynchpin for activating Aegis of Wisdom (since they don't receive Logos buffs or de-buffs). The +1 Ld command is a great one to start the game in if there's night fighting because it offsets the -1 Ld, meaning you don't have to vox's on every single unit. Full March may seem like a steep price with -1 WS AND BS, and it most certainly is, but the extra movement can let you achieve some truly amazing strategies depending on the mission you're playing.  Retribution Strike is, bar none, the best command in Logos. WS 5 on basically you're whole army is crazy good and careful application of Aegis of Wisdom will allow you to get your most valuable shooting to still fire at full potential. Hold Fast is the command I use the least since no movement is quite detrimental, it is the least useful command imo. 

Regarding our special units, I've only run Nemesis destroyers, so I can't really comment too much. Based on my knowledge of the game it's safe to say that our units range from competent to outstanding, no real duds. Don't spam fulmentarus are you are a dick lol. Regarding the elites slot issue, don't forget you can take a unit of Suzerains as a command squad, which frees up an elites slot. You're probably not gonna want to run Praetorians unless you're a die-hard fan of the unit, considering they're just worse suzerains. You should only ever be taking 1 unit of Fulmentarus so as not to be "That Guy". Nemesis Destroyers are aggressively okay, especially since my group has houseruled their boltguns to have Breaching (6+) like they had in 1.0. 

[ashc]

Hi all, long time lurker first time posting for Heresy.

I really like all the Ultras unique units and consider Guilliman a bit of a badass so I'm throwing my lot in with the boys in blue. I'm currently torn between Pride of the Legion and the Logos but Runefyre your rather positive review of the Logos has made the decision a little harder! - I basically want to be able to field all the cool units they get!

With regards to activating Aegis of Wisdom, Rhino combibolters seem good for this but what about some small squads like scouts to help with tagging units too, or not worth worrying about?

 

 

 

[Cruor Vault]

6 hours ago, ashc said:

Hi all, long time lurker first time posting for Heresy.

I really like all the Ultras unique units and consider Guilliman a bit of a badass so I'm throwing my lot in with the boys in blue. I'm currently torn between Pride of the Legion and the Logos but Runefyre your rather positive review of the Logos has made the decision a little harder! - I basically want to be able to field all the cool units they get!

With regards to activating Aegis of Wisdom, Rhino combibolters seem good for this but what about some small squads like scouts to help with tagging units too, or not worth worrying about?

 

 

 

Scouts and recon squads are ok at this, but the Rhinos are often more useful because they can shield the squad from anti-infantry fire early in the game and are a source of extremely valuable searchlights as well as being a lot cheaper.

I think the Pride of Legion is a great RoW to take if you're NOT running Guilliman, and if you ARE going to run the Primarch you should take the Logos RoW for the crazy stacking buffs.

[Orange Knight]

I agree. The Logos really shines when you add Guilliman. 

Suddenly you can have assault units that gain additional weapon skill AND furious charge, or units that sit on objectives and are stubborn. 

Again, you don't need to use the abilities every turn, but when you combine elements from both the Logos and the Primarch it becomes significant.

[Aspecti]

I'm new to 30k, and I have a few pretty basic strategy questions that may influence what I will build next.

First some background information: I have two Betrayal at Calth boxes and one Burning of Prospero box, mostly unassembled. I've built the Contemptors years ago and bought a third, all are currently equipped with assault cannon and fist, but I can easily swap in the multi meltas as I magnetised everything back when I built them. I've also built one five man Cataphractii squad, but everything else is still on sprues. 

I also have quite a few old metal & plastic 40k 2nd edition era tanks, which I'm told are 'ok' to use in 30k. I have a Land Raider (the standard Godhammer pattern), three Predators, three Vindicators, three Whirlwinds, five Rhinos and three Razorbacks which I know aren't 30k era accurate. I also have a FW Ultramarines Contemptor still in blister and two lascannon arms for it, and two Apothecaries I bought years ago.

I'm mostly interested in building a force that lets me play the Logos and Pride of the Legion, or no RoW at all. I've been thinking about turning one of the Razorbacks into a Damocles Command Rhino and a MoS seems simple enough to kitbash.

Obviously I have tons of bodies already, so just need to decide what to make of them. I was thinking of building a blob of 20 Tacticals and sticking an Apothecary with them for taking objectives. One 10 strong Tactical in a Rhino seems like an obvious choice as well, but how about a 10 strong Breacher squad with an Apothecary to hold back field objectives?

That still leaves me with 50 power armor bodies, five Cataphractii and five Tartaros to build. Veterans? Tactical support squad? Heavy support squad? I have Suzerains in my shopping list, but damn are they expensive these days.

Anyways, appreciate any input you guys may have.