Sanguinius the Great Angel

[Sothalor]

Any speculation on the themes or plots that the book might tackle?

 

I know it’s incredibly unlikely, but the famous interaction between Sangunius and the Necrons would be great to see.  

 

 

 

Per the Warhammer Community article: 

 

 

Few recall their true origins, so when a disgraced remembrancer has the chance to accompany the beloved IX Legion on campaign, they might discover more than they bargained for…

 

 

Of course, this is Warhammer Community, so take it with a large heaping of salt regarding its factual accuracy.

 

That said, based on this snippet, expect the fairly standard setup of baseline human liberal arts major getting embedded into fraternal order of post-human hyper-warriors and the ensuing culture shock as a means of exploring that Legion's internal culture, mindset, etc.

 

Pretty sure that's an Ol' Reliable for BL at this point.

Edited May 25, 2022 by A Melancholic Sanguinity

[Fedor]

 

Call me a contrarian, but I think Sanguinius has been already well depicted in the stories. The primarch who really needs Chris Wraight’s care for world building is the much underdeveloped Horus.

Out of curiosity which book would you say achieved this? 

 

So far all they have done i feel is tie him to the red thirst and his death. But i want Sanguinius as a father, who came to a legion of cannibal ghoul men and taught them art, nobility, sacrifice. Who cared for them and argued for them and fought for them. The man who turned the monsters INTO the angels and did so by leading by example and humility. Whose actions caused the Imperium to love him and the army to cheer loudest for him on the day of days that was ullanor. 

 

I want the Sanguinius whose death still plagues Roboute 10k years latter and who drove the church of utter fanatics to find a way to dial it up too 11 during space jesus christmass and causes even the administratum to get the day off. 

 

And by heck this is the first real chance we have of getting him. 

 

A lot of that didn't exist until Malevolence, so it's likely a simple issue of chronology as to why little of it was explored in his appearances.

 

pre Siege novels, i'd go for Ruinstorm as his most interesting depiction, it at least did some interesting things with his visions. Wraight's Sanguinius in Khan and Scars could have been switched with a number of other primarchs. He's strictly a small role supporting character there.

 

That said i'm glad it isn't Swallow. Fear to Tread is one of the most disappointing books in the series, with a bland take on the Angels and distinct lack of threat/horror for the daemons.

Edited May 25, 2022 by Fedor

[b1soul]

Great news！

 

Sang and company will benefit hugely from being written in depth by BL’s finest...be it Wraight or another of BL’s top tier.

 

Swallow’s prose is bland on bland, bordering on unreadable...just IMO of course. So this news comes as a great relief.

Edited May 26, 2022 by b1soul

[rookie40K]

I’m definitely excited Wraight is writing this, but I must say I really liked Fear to Tread on audio. It captured the whole PTSD/shock the Astartes had dealing with Chaos for first time and it’s defying logic. FtoT ork stuff in the beginning and build up was also very cool. I realize I'm in the minority, but yeah I admit I loved the Fear to Tread book (audio then was superb with Know no Fear and Unremembered Empire which may have helped).

 

Back on topic, Wraight made White Scars, which I had little interest in, very entertaining. He’s a great writer.

[Taliesin]

It all sounds excellent, the question is when. I'd get the LE for this one.

[Omega-soul]

This gives some hope for a fair and complex depiction of Sanguinius.

As for me - I have a theory, that Sanguinius is somekind of placeholder character in eyes of BL.

Like - "Hey it's Sanguinius, everybody knows him - he is bestest-coolest guy everybody love - well YOU KNOW."

So they stick not for an actual character but for a common knowledge about him. Like faceless protagonist, your typical good paladin.

And now - we're 2 books short to a finish line and there is only so much time for a character development.

The sad thing is - current, Sanguinius character does not meet the required standart for "One of the two top primarch" (frankly neither Horus).

It's only said in books that he is the strongest, and beloved - but there is no actual things he do that portray him as such.

 

I really wish Wright will change that status quo.

But for now - Dante feels like Sanguinius actually should look like. Dante not only respected person by default - there are actual and meaningful deeds that speaks of him much stronger than book description - This is Sanguinius he is really good and stuff mmm'kay.

[Scribe]

This gives some hope for a fair and complex depiction of Sanguinius.

As for me - I have a theory, that Sanguinius is somekind of placeholder character in eyes of BL.

Like - "Hey it's Sanguinius, everybody knows him - he is bestest-coolest guy everybody love - well YOU KNOW."

So they stick not for an actual character but for a common knowledge about him. Like faceless protagonist, your typical good paladin.

And now - we're 2 books short to a finish line and there is only so much time for a character development.

The sad thing is - current, Sanguinius character does not meet the required standart for "One of the two top primarch" (frankly neither Horus).

It's only said in books that he is the strongest, and beloved - but there is no actual things he do that portray him as such.

 

I really wish Wright will change that status quo.

But for now - Dante feels like Sanguinius actually should look like. Dante not only respected person by default - there are actual and meaningful deeds that speaks of him much stronger than book description - This is Sanguinius he is really good and stuff mmm'kay.

 

Between this, and ADB's Eternity SoT book, Sanguinius will come out great I am sure.

[emptyglass]

Thank the Emperor its not Swallow.

I think it will be Sangy finding out, just what the Legion has been getting up too until he turned up. 

[cheywood]

Here’s a description of Sanguinius’ primarch novel. Simon and Schuster posted it while B&C was down and I promptly forgot about it: 
 

Sanguinius is the Great Angel, most beloved of all the primarchs, his mighty exploits celebrated throughout the entire Imperium as the Crusade expands into the void. And yet the origins of his Legion are shrouded in mystery and rumour, his unique physical form is an enigma, and his perilous home world remains off-limits to all but his own secretive people. When a discredited remembrancer arrives with the expeditionary fleets to chronicle the primarch’s deeds, he has to work hard to uncover the truth behind the legends. As he accompanies the Ninth Legion to war against the enemies of the Emperor, he eventually learns much more than he expected to, not just about the subjects of his study, but also the nature of the Imperium itself.
 

56 minutes ago, emptyglass said:

Thank the Emperor its not Swallow.

I think it will be Sangy finding out, just what the Legion has been getting up too until he turned up. 

This is pretty close. It’s about a remembrancer exploring the Blood Angels. 

[Ubiquitous1984]

I’m still holding out hope that there could be a run-in with the silent king.  1% hope!

[JeffJedi]

Honestly hoping to see him lose control and drink blood.

[Mjasghar]

Remember pretty much all the baalites at the time were mutants to some extent. It’s less so in 40k after years of gene therapy but even then almost all candidates have some mutation which is why the transformation coffins are needed

the fact that the Imperium even then made a show of anti mutation but tolerating it where it’s useful is perhaps the point - cf  the angels wings and more generally psykers etc

[Blood Angel Scout]

Thought Sanguinius united Baal bringing the remaining "purer" tribes into "the Blood" who found him by eradicating the mutant tribes? 

Going from memory of earlier codeci, The Blood would've slain the Angel because of his wings (mutation) but didn't. Sanguinius was spared, grew up to become leader, went full rage mode in revenge for a night raid then went round cleaning house then became ruler before the Emperor turned up and he agreed to join if there was no further exploration/review of Baal's population. 

Now that's nearly 30 year old lore but wondering if this is being expanded as the two psychic angels that are shown in the latest Mephiston novel, think it was said they've have been involved with Baal before Sanguinius arrived so going with a theory this myths/legends might be the basis of the Blood's beliefs and they perceive Sanguinius as an avatar of those angels. Could even be a contributing reason for the conflict between the two moons and the descending survivors have then reformed this into myths over 10k years. 

 

 

[Mjasghar]

I mean that there’s the outright mutant cannibals and the human ones

but the human ones by Imperium standards aren’t acceptable - I think it was in the Dante novel about how the coffins purge their minor mutations 

[Mjasghar]

Each of the Legions had been granted genetic tools to fit the roles for them by the Emperor, and the IX^th was no exception. Where other Legions took only the best recruits, princes and champions among the conquered nations of Old Earth, and produced but few initiates, the IX^th Legion took in the hordes of dispossessed and broken, and made of them an army of angels. Scarred by so many long generations mired in the rad-zones and sunken fortresses of Terra's poisoned wilds, these creatures were no longer entirely human, but horribly mutated beasts that the tyrants of Old Earth had driven out and hunted. Yet, from such base materials emerged a breed of Legiones Astartes uniformly tall and fair, their features sculpted in stern elegance.

[Taliesin]

Where is that quote from?

[Mjasghar]

Malevolence 

which suggests that the geneseed can be used on mutants - and the Revenant Legion did some seriously dodgy stuff including force induction of abhumans when isolated on a world and then killing their ‘brothers’ after winning the war

the lexicanum entry say Baal itself still has mutant tribes which makes you wonder why they aren’t purged 

[b1soul]

Pretty sure all Baalites are mutated by Imperial standards.

The tribes of The Blood are just less grotesquely mutated and more civilised versus the feral mutant packs trying to eat them.

[Blood Angel Scout]

Throwing some further thoughts out there:

Guessing it depends on how mutated the mutants are, as we've seen potential aspirants being rejected from genetic testing in Dante and some reference at the end of Devestation of Baal. 

For me, it could be a case of genetic lines with high probability for cancers are ok for selection as the geneseed likely rewrites those as some function of Space Marine creation (maybe some element of cell regeneration?) while those with high probability of physical abnormalities are considered too mutated as the enhancement of those genes would cause excessive deformation. 

Taking into account the heavily irradiated environments of Baal and it's moons, it's possible that true mutants can never be eradicated, only removed generations at a time, as they're a perpetual cycle of genetic corruption. Combined with the loss of understanding from the Age of Strife, this could lead to the development of the feudalistic/medieval superstition based lifestyle, though rather than being in the context of the corruption of the soul (good/evil or chaos), that the Baalite superstition is more to do with avoiding corruption of the physical, as they believe that is what causes the mental deterioration. The sharing of the blood for example, they might have based this ritual on the original concept of being given clean/healthy transfusions and over time, the method and specific medical reason for this ritual has been forgotten, it's purpose was essential for survival so those with bad blood had to be removed from the group. Also one's who got to like the taste of blood too much, they would need to go. So the ideas of restraint, of moderation (war between the moons being attributed to greed/pride/hubris) became the underpinning of Baalite culture. 

So if the sharing of blood was common, could see those in his tribe who shared Sanguinius's blood having several different effects, some may share a vision, some may receive short term super strength or some may turn into blood thirsty demented creatures...maybe Sanguinius had to deal with his adopted family who were lost to the red thirst, well before the Emperor arrived, saw similar route for degregation in the revenants, hence the need for and use of Baalite culture as basis for the Angelic Virtues. 

[Jareddm]

On 7/2/2022 at 8:36 AM, Blood Angel Scout said:

Throwing some further thoughts out there:

Guessing it depends on how mutated the mutants are, as we've seen potential aspirants being rejected from genetic testing in Dante and some reference at the end of Devestation of Baal. 

For me, it could be a case of genetic lines with high probability for cancers are ok for selection as the geneseed likely rewrites those as some function of Space Marine creation (maybe some element of cell regeneration?) while those with high probability of physical abnormalities are considered too mutated as the enhancement of those genes would cause excessive deformation. 

The way I've reconciled the genetic filtering we see in Dante with the Malevolence portrayal of recruiting mutant hordes is through tighter Post-Heresy restrictions due to upticks in the Red Thirst and Black Rage.  That the chapter took up the theory that certain genetic traits were higher risk for the twin curses or one of the other mutations we see in the tower of the lost.  But that in Sanguinius's time, the legion could literally be launched directly into mutant enclaves and picked up a year later with more legionnaires than they started with.

[Fedor]

Hopefully this ends with Sanguinius feasting on the remembrancer.

[Blood Angel Scout]

22 hours ago, Jareddm said:

The way I've reconciled the genetic filtering we see in Dante with the Malevolence portrayal of recruiting mutant hordes is through tighter Post-Heresy restrictions due to upticks in the Red Thirst and Black Rage.  That the chapter took up the theory that certain genetic traits were higher risk for the twin curses or one of the other mutations we see in the tower of the lost.  But that in Sanguinius's time, the legion could literally be launched directly into mutant enclaves and picked up a year later with more legionnaires than they started with.

From Fear to Tread, where Horus learns about the Red Thirst, it was a low outcome for marines to fall but Sanguinius knew it had to do with his genetic component, as the reason for believing Horus that there was a cure at Signus.

The events of Signus expanded this to ALL marines having to deal with the curse of the thirst as well as the beginning of the origin for the Black Rage, in terms of the lack of control and decent into savagery when the Angel is taken down. 

Also, from the Khan's Primarch novel, there is reference to the wine having blood in it, which would be a very strange thing unless the Blood Angels had a specific reason for doing so, especially when taking into account the recent info from Cawl that the thirst was part of the design in the geneseed. 

For me, the theory I put forward in my earlier post was more to try to work out what the basis for the agreement between Sanguinius and the Emperor, to not have a heavy Imperial presence on Baal. Really does make me think that the sharing of the blood among the population, was Sanguinius's idea to help the people by making sure they got some of his, similar to Angron giving his blood to keep his rebels alive. 

As an aside, believe whatever the reason was, there will be more of an impact of this in the current setting of taking into account Gulliman's intention to terraform Baal and change it's culture, something that the Angel refused to do. 

[emptyglass]

A discreditored remebrancer. <<< Gets sent to a discreditored blood thirsty legion who remember in their own way.

30k they were sucking each others blood, before they even found Sangy and Baal.

Maybe the early legionnaires knew something, maybe they just wanted to remember the fallen.

 

 

[Old-Four-Arms]

 

Small heads-up ; according to my local Waterstones, the release date should be around December 8th..