Scouts and their role in primaris chapters

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

What would people think if they moved Scouts back to Troops but made a rule that you need TWO non-Scout Troop units for every Scout squad you can take?

 

So people could still Combat Squad the Scouts, but they'd need to take at least that many non-Scout Troop models (two minimum-strength "normal" squads).

 

Or they could even rule it so that if you DID take two minimum-strength non-Scout squads, you could then only take a minimum-strength Scout unit.

 

Compared to the complexity of some of the rules GW has come up with, this would be nothing.

[Lord_Ikka]

I think GW really needs to look at what they want their SM infantry to be. Some units have clearly defined roles and are kitted out well to do that, while others are really hurting due to there being many options.

 

The main three that need a good looking at, I think are the following:

Scouts- They aren't an Elite unit, that was clearly done to stop the MSU Scout squads as Troop Tax meta. Right now Incursors/Infilitrators and Eliminators do everything that Scouts can do, but have more wounds and are generally better.

Reivers- Not deadly enough or "scary" enough to be truly useful, they need either some better gear or better rules.

Veteran Intercessors- an extra Attack and Ld isn't good enough to have this unit cluttering up the Elite section of a faction that has tons of Elites already. Just give the regular Intercessor/Assault Intercessor squads the ability to upgrade to "Veteran" for X points per model, where they get the extra attack and leadership.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I think GW really needs to look at what they want their SM infantry to be. Some units have clearly defined roles and are kitted out well to do that, while others are really hurting due to there being many options.

 

The main three that need a good looking at, I think are the following:

Scouts- They aren't an Elite unit, that was clearly done to stop the MSU Scout squads as Troop Tax meta. Right now Incursors/Infilitrators and Eliminators do everything that Scouts can do, but have more wounds and are generally better.

Reivers- Not deadly enough or "scary" enough to be truly useful, they need either some better gear or better rules.

Veteran Intercessors- an extra Attack and Ld isn't good enough to have this unit cluttering up the Elite section of a faction that has tons of Elites already. Just give the regular Intercessor/Assault Intercessor squads the ability to upgrade to "Veteran" for X points per model, where they get the extra attack and leadership.

id be happy if veteran intercessors kept their profile but got more weapon choice for both melee and shooting

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I just don’t see a need for Primaris Scouts with Infiltrators and Incursors. As has been pointed out we already have Eliminators so it’s just completely redundant. 

[Blindhamster]

Veteran intercessors need to be replaced with primaris company veterans imo, give them all chainsword, hbp and bolt rifle base, allow them to upgrade chainswords to other melee weapons, allow them to take grenade launchers and allow them to have some sort of ranged weapon upgrade, perhaps a heavy bolter like heavy intercessors have or something. And let them use both the intercessors strats as they meet the requirements for both.

 

For “primaris” scouts, the obvious thing to do is make them cheaper than incursors/infiltrators, give them hbp and combat knives or bolt carbines or bolt sniper rifles, give them access to camo cloaks, and have them be troops, but also be worth more VP if they’re killed (you’re threatening the future of the chapter afterall)

[Felix Antipodes]

I don’t think even GW knows what to do with neophytes since introducing the Primaris range, which is why they expanded the 10th company from a pure training role by adding new stealth units to it, effectively usurping the traditional role of neophyte scouts.

 

It may be that this is the new paradigm.  Promotion is now from neophyte scout to Reiver/Incursor/Infiltrator within the 10th before moving on to another company.

[Blindhamster]

I think rievers should have a veteran stat line, so higher ld and attacks base, they’re elites and are implied to be the veteran Phobos unit, make it feel like they deserve that

[UnkyHamHam]

I think rievers should have a veteran stat line, so higher ld and attacks base, they’re elites and are implied to be the veteran Phobos unit, make it feel like they deserve that

Never thought of that before. Considering Rievers a Veteran Phobos unit. I almost think that simple +1 A and Ld would go a long way. Their knives deserve at least a minor tweak tho, like an AP - 1, or a 6 to hit in melee auto wounds. And if their bolt carbines were "Specialist" bolt carbines, they'd be great I think.

[Son of Sacrifice]

Since the new Phobos kill team was revealed I'm thinking if we get new scout models it could be as part of the Heresy range.

 

They fit into the Elite role because of their mission set, rather than their standing from a fluff perspective. I'm pretty sure they only moved to the troop slot in 6th edition.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Scouts were a troop choice until at least 3rd edition.

[Beta galactosidase]

Veteran intercessors need to be replaced with primaris company veterans imo, give them all chainsword, hbp and bolt rifle base, allow them to upgrade chainswords to other melee weapons, allow them to take grenade launchers and allow them to have some sort of ranged weapon upgrade, perhaps a heavy bolter like heavy intercessors have or something.

This is interesting. The stats for being veterans are meaningless to the game rules. Then you solve that by adding equipment. Now if you take them it’s for the equipment, and them being more experienced is still irrelevant.

 

I like that they’re just combining the two types of intercesor.

[Marshal Reinhard]

They fit into the Elite role because of their mission set, rather than their standing from a fluff perspective.

"Elite" and "Veteran" status for marines hasn't really been 1 for 1 analogous for a pretty long time now, so this is nothing new. That said, I just want scouts that blend seemlessly with the BT neophytes, so I for one hope they don't make it a HH kit.

[MegaVolt87]

Scouts, lore wise are redundant for primaris to me. Cawl fixed the majority of genesed issues so primaris should be going straight to full battlebrother like the 30k legion era where gene tech was at its peak. Primaris gene tech is the modern peak. Scouts are a by product of lost gene tech, knowledge etc. This means they move straight to an intercessor squad and are given a bolt rifle, like in 30k how they moved straight to Legion Tactical Squad and given a bolter. In lore they were as never as throw away for a 40k chapter as the game had them be in past iterations. Scouts should be an exclusive firstborn unit to reflect their limitations/ progressions etc over history. As for mental fitness, 40k SM brainwashing + indoctrination is the norm and the undesirables are weeded out here. Even in 30k such practices were rare, with a legion like IW's one of the first to do it as a new process in recruitment. 

[Black LObster]

Fluff-wise, a Primaris chapter will still have scouts that are in the process of training and implantation, and I can see them being used in the same way as any other chapter. Eliminators are the elite snipers but ones who have survived and shown a propensity to that style of combat.

I have a squad of 5 scouts with sniper rifles, because fluff-wise even a Primaris chapter is going to have scouts and use them on the battlefield. I'll probably never get another box to max out the squad though unless they go back to being a Troop choice. Right now they are a perfect cheap unit for sitting back on an objective in your deployment zone and sniping off models.

 

[Beta galactosidase]

22 hours ago, Black LObster said:

 

I have a squad of 5 scouts with sniper rifles, because fluff-wise even a Primaris chapter is going to have scouts and use them on the battlefield. I'll probably never get another box to max out the squad though unless they go back to being a Troop choice. Right now they are a perfect cheap unit for sitting back on an objective in your deployment zone and sniping off models.

 

In the Lost Patrol and Tyranid Attack board games and most of the background I know about like the 99 codex, 5 is the right size.  Ten always seems wrong, I think it only allowed for sales or something

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Phobos units make up the scouting and reconnaissance operations now.

[phandaal]

1 hour ago, Black Blow Fly said:

Phobos units make up the scouting and reconnaissance operations now.

Scouts are still around along with Phobos. According to the 9th edition codex anyway.

[Marshal Reinhard]

11 hours ago, Black Blow Fly said:

Phobos units make up the scouting and reconnaissance operations now.

Rename them to trainees or something then

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

How about red shirts ?

[Medjugorje]

the only thing I really think they could have a place is still their profile but very cheap. What Marines lack is that we dont have enough bodies which can screen our backfield. And they could make Actions better then other units ( while lots of their tasks already made by infilatrators and incursers).

 

but the models, THE MODELS^^

 

As we can see on the Primaris Crusadersquad, they look much better then the old scouts.

[Lord_Ikka]

On 7/5/2022 at 4:16 PM, Medjugorje said:

but the models, THE MODELS^^

 

As we can see on the Primaris Crusadersquad, they look much better then the old scouts.

Yeah- I'm probably going to buy some BT Neophytes off of some friends to convert to Scouts. Since I'm running an entirely Primaris force, they would scale up better than the regular scouts. Probably going to do a set of five with bolters (carbines) and a set of five with bolt pistols/knives (chainswords), with two more converted to carry a heavy bolter/missile launcher. Put Reiver helmets on them (all of my guys wear helmets), and they'll look pretty close to what I imagine Primaris Scouts would be. 

[Marshal Reinhard]

11 hours ago, Lord_Ikka said:

Yeah- I'm probably going to buy some BT Neophytes off of some friends to convert to Scouts. Since I'm running an entirely Primaris force, they would scale up better than the regular scouts. Probably going to do a set of five with bolters (carbines) and a set of five with bolt pistols/knives (chainswords), with two more converted to carry a heavy bolter/missile launcher. Put Reiver helmets on them (all of my guys wear helmets), and they'll look pretty close to what I imagine Primaris Scouts would be. 

The reason why I so desperately want a new a scout kit/kill team/anything is because, nice as the BT neophytes are, we only have 2 different leg and torso poses. It's fine if all you intend to get is a 5 man squad, you can get a lot of mileage out of them with different arm poses. But if you want to get 3 full crusader squads like me, you need to have 24 of the buggers, and that's just a tad too much repetition.