Ideas and hopes for the new R-U-L-E-S

[Medjugorje]

I liked the other threat to talk about hopes and changes for rules in the new Codex. But then there started a discussion what has nothing to do with that.

So I start to talk about whishes and hopes only for RULES you want to see or you fear.

 

1. I want a few point changes or at least some improved statlines for normal Marines/ Primaris. I think the generic Troop choice is not good prized.

2. I want improved transports because a lot of strenght in an army comes from its mobility and there we suck

- improved Impulsors (more capacity, cheaper, good stratagems to use them)

3. Better chapter tactics.(mabe its just me but I think a few chapters deserve stronger ones)

4. More abilities for all Marines. Advance + Charge is such a strong rule and really annoying if just a few melee chapters have access to it. 

5. Some changes when it comes to the general picture how all chapters have their strength

- some chapters should be the "fast mobility" ones like White Scars but they seem just the best melee chapters which is annoying. More focus on bikes for WS for example.

- some buffs which makes BT more deadly in close combat.

- Ultramarines should not change between Doctrines - THEY are the introducer of that system. Give them bonuses on all doctrines for example but make them not as good as others instead. They should be good in everything but the best in one specific thing

6. Some chapters are that divers - I dont know if that should be made in the codex or in the specific supplment but for example each SW great company could have another additional chapter tactic. Same for BT as each Crusade is very different and much more independent.

7. I really want the Raven Guard being "the ninjas" but first turn charges with x units are very bad for the game. So I hope they bring a few better design like the old mandrake rule from 3rd edtion codex for them instead of "i have first round and win the game trashrule".

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

In regards to #4 marines are a shooty faction, so it makes sense for more melee focused chapters to have that.

 

Maybe even more shooty focused chapters should get a buff of some sort to their shooting, like if troops don’t move they can shoot twice, or grinding advance for preds and gladiators, etc.

[Jacques Corbin]

Well, for #7, I think we need more deployment shenanigans. Master of Ambush can be strong, if you get first turn, but I have had it backfire as well. I think if we got to redeploy more before turn 1, and let us not just deep strike, but outflank units too. Raven Guard need to be better at Asymmetrical Warfare, but still capable as a conventional force.

 

Also, touching on #3, if Salamanders can't have failed wounds rerolled versus them, Raven Guard should have it where you cannot reroll failed to hits versus them. Keep all the other stuff, at range too, but give us that, at any range, to give us something when we start moving in close.

[Medjugorje]

Well, for #7, I think we need more deployment shenanigans. Master of Ambush can be strong, if you get first turn, but I have had it backfire as well. I think if we got to redeploy more before turn 1, and let us not just deep strike, but outflank units too. Raven Guard need to be better at Asymmetrical Warfare, but still capable as a conventional force.

 

Also, touching on #3, if Salamanders can't have failed wounds rerolled versus them, Raven Guard should have it where you cannot reroll failed to hits versus them. Keep all the other stuff, at range too, but give us that, at any range, to give us something when we start moving in close.

Like redeploy in mid game for free for each character. I think redeploy is a great thing if its not like master of ambush. 

[Jacques Corbin]

 

 

Well, for #7, I think we need more deployment shenanigans. Master of Ambush can be strong, if you get first turn, but I have had it backfire as well. I think if we got to redeploy more before turn 1, and let us not just deep strike, but outflank units too. Raven Guard need to be better at Asymmetrical Warfare, but still capable as a conventional force.

 

Also, touching on #3, if Salamanders can't have failed wounds rerolled versus them, Raven Guard should have it where you cannot reroll failed to hits versus them. Keep all the other stuff, at range too, but give us that, at any range, to give us something when we start moving in close.

Like redeploy in mid game for free for each character. I think redeploy is a great thing if its not like master of ambush.

No, like redeploy before turn 1, to get better positioning, and deny lines of sight for enemy shooting.

[Medjugorje]

within the own deployment zone? 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Redeploy midgame would be busted.

[Blindhamster]

Redeploy midgame would be busted.

Upon wings of fire was great

[Medjugorje]

better then before the game because you can handle it better but it can still be strong. Then Redployment should be a must have for RG imo.

 

@Blindhamster. I think so too. A stratagem for the elite of the elite. Reroll hits for Terminators and all kind of veterans like veteran intercessors, Terminators, Vanguard Vets,....

Edited May 31, 2022 by Medjugorje

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

That’s why they got rid of it. It was too OP .

[Medjugorje]

OP? No. I dont know why they killed it but redeploy a jump pack unit and get 3d6 charge with +1 because of chapter tactic was OP.

[XeonDragon]

Regarding #4.... blood angels would LOVE to be able to advance and charge ;)

[Medjugorje]

Regarding #4.... blood angels would LOVE to be able to advance and charge

 all close combat chapters love it ( and need it to be honest )

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Reroll charges can be often just as good. It’s not like you’ll always roll 6’’ to advance.

[Mike8404]

OP? No. I dont know why they killed it but redeploy a jump pack unit and get 3d6 charge with +1 because of chapter tactic was OP.

Iirc, it was nerfed because of a rule a particular chapter had and it's ability to abuse Invictors.

 

Advance and charge is a special ability, I think only one specific chapter should be allowed to have it

Edited June 1, 2022 by Mike8404

[Mike8404]

Reroll charges can be often just as good. It’s not like you’ll always roll 6’’ to advance.

Completely agree with this

[Jacques Corbin]

within the own deployment zone?

Sorry, I have 3 acres of grass to cut. Within own DZ and any units with Concealed Positions. Let us redeploy infantry in our DZ, like the Lord of Deceit WL Trait lets you redeploy Phobos. Keep the Master of Ambush trait as is, and add another trait that allows a character and a unit of infantry to arrive via Outflank.

 

I like the idea of being able to Deep Strike and Outflank. In a way, it's a kind of counter-mobility. If my opponent moves recklessly, I will get them from behind or otherwise exploit a weakness that would be avoided if they play more defensively.

 

Also, for the ninja angle, I would like to see a bonus on the charge, if the charge is successful from a piece of terrain, from Death from the Skies, or from Outflank, or in the case where Overwatch cannot be fired due to a condition, and not because the stratagem for overwatch has already been used. A bonus like +1 to wound or mortal wounds on 6s to hit on the turn you charged. I really like the mental image of Incursors or Reivers jumping out of ruins, or from Outflank, and just pouncing on an enemy with eerily precisely placed blows. Imagine how Reivers would improve, if they could charge from outflank or from terrain, not be overwatched, and had either +1 to wound or mortal wounds on 6s to hit in melee.

[Medjugorje]

Reroll charges can be often just as good. It’s not like you’ll always roll 6’’ to advance.

but its a range from 3 to 18 instead of 2 to 12 and in addition you can reroll the advance and the chargeroll with stratagem. 

on average you have3,5 + 7 = 10,5"

 

average with a reroll is just 8,98"

 

OP? No. I dont know why they killed it but redeploy a jump pack unit and get 3d6 charge with +1 because of chapter tactic was OP.

Iirc, it was nerfed because of a rule a particular chapter had and it's ability to abuse Invictors.

 

Advance and charge is a special ability, I think only one specific chapter should be allowed to have it

 

and which chapter? WS?

why. 

And btw RG and SW have it and BT had it before the supplement.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Typically can only reroll one advance so meh imo . The difference is only 1/2".

Edited June 1, 2022 by Black Blow Fly

[DesuVult]

The rules need to be game relevant and relevant for the entire game.

 

In 40k I play Imperial Fists. As a space marine I have some rules related to morale that I neither know nor care about because any large squad I use that is big enough for morale to matter is so important that if it gets hit hard enough for morale to come in, it is getting removed. On rapid fire bolters if I stand still I get to rapid fire. Turn 1 my heavy weapons have extra AP, turns 2 and 3 my assault and rapid fire weapons have extra AP, and turns 4 and 5 my melee weapons have extra AP. Some of you may be about to comment about pistols and grenades. Neither of those matter. When I charge or am charged I get +1 attack. When I am attacked I ignore the first point of AP if I don't have a storm shield. As an Imperial Fist I have 2 hits on a hit roll of 6 with bolt weapons and turn 1 I have +1 damage against vehicles with heavy weapons S7 or higher.

 

This seems like a lot but it is all so situational, in particular the doctrine stands out as something hard to build around. Which is something you do with army rules, you build an army around them. With a pile of situational rules you cannot really build an army with the whole thing so you pick one or two things out of it to build an army. A lot of these rules most units struggle to do anything with. So I am pushed by the rules to lean into good units and make using my army rules an incidental thing. I've toyed with things like 10 man intercessor squads using auto bolt rifles but they get swept up and the range of what they are good against isn't that big.

 

In AoS I play Daughters of Khaine and and Hedonites of Slaanesh.

 

In Daughters of Khaine I get a 6+++ FnP, an ability to give a character +2A every turn, and an ability to give a unit an ability so that hit rolls of 6 are 2 hits, each turn I get buffs that add to each other, improved running, improved charging, improved hitting, improved wounding, and finally improved FnP.

 

You may notice a cohesive theme here. At the start of the game you get buffs to reach melee, then buffs in melee, and finally a buff to not die in the last turn while holding objectives. Then there are buffs to killing and not dying. I like snakes so I play the sub-faction "Zanthar Kai" this makes the snake women into troops and makes it so those snake women fight on death. Previously you may have noticed this army buffed melee and survivability, as a result getting rules that work with those previous rules makes for an army with a functional goal. My M8 W2 A3 models attempt to quickly come to grips and use some less standard durability options and high powered melee to overcome their enemy. The rules are cohesive and work with the models available in a format that functions within the game.

 

DoK are a good army, let's look at my Slaanesh force, a bad army in AoS. First is summoning from Depravity Points. As I or my opponent takes wounds I get Depravity Points, this accumulates and allows me to summon daemons that don't cost regular points. They just come in near my characters more than 9" away from enemy models. Daemon characters have a locus to turn off an enemy character's pile-in move on a 4+. Hit rolls of 6 for anything melee becomes 2 hits. If the unit is over 20 models that becomes 3 hits. This isn't a bad set of rules, clearly far less than the DoK stuff but exploding melee hits always and wanting to do damage encourages skirmishing and key melee engagements with attack volume.

 

Then the sub-factions kick in. I mostly play Pretenders. This gives my warlord 2 warlord traits, gives Mr Depravity Points if my warlord is near enemy units, and units of 10 or more models reroll hit rolls of 1. The basic mortal troop for Slaanesh is base size 11 and is archers who can run and shoot. You may recall earlier I mentioned how the rules seemed to encourage skirmishing. I also said they encourage picking key melee engagements. Fortunately, we have Painbringers, elite warriors in heavy with multiple wounds who do mortal wounds on 6s to wound ensuring some damage gets through. There is even the option to use a Lord of Pain to make them troops so you can make squads over 10. We see in the rules an encouraged functioning playstyle, skirmishing, generating DP, moving into decisive melee battles, generating more DP and sitting on victory with daemons and your durable or ranged mortals that survived.

 

I also play Godseekers sometimes, that gives +1 to charge rolls and gives d3 Depravity Points if your warlord charges. This doesn't seem like a lot but then Slaanesh has elite cavalry, plenty of chariots, and two kinds of cavalry troops. So while that +1 charge doesn't seem like a lot it works well with the cheap troops that generate 5 2 damage attacks and 10 1 damage attacks on the charge after moving 14" and rerolling failed charges built in. It leans into the multitude of fast cavalry options, you take a lot of small cavalry units, charge constantly, put wounds everywhere, and summon daemons to backup your elite cavalry who can do serious damage.

 

The Hedonites of Slaanesh roster is a fraction of what I have as Imperial Fists but it still feels like I have more diverse functioning list atchetype options as Hedonites.

 

In 30k I play Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors. Imperial Fists have +1 to hit with Bolt and Auto weapons. Iron Warriors have +1 S versus vehicles, dreadnoughts, and automata. This may not seem like much, similar to Hedonites, but in the context of the game comes out to so much more. This is massive on Iron Warriors. The breakpoints for AV have been fine tuned over a long period. In many cases this outright doubles the amount of hull points shaved off and because in 30k you cannot wound everything with anything it pushes many weapons into a strength bracket where they can hurt a lot more. Iron Warrior tactical marines with bayonets can charge and kill vehicles with AV12 armor. A land raider is AV14 all around, this makes bayonet tacticals a threat to most vehicles. Each legion also has unique wargear as part of their rules. Imperial Fists gain storm shields making them one of only 2 legions that can access a 3++ invul save, an assault cannon, and a solarite power gauntlet that makes their power fists S10 instead of S8. Iron Warriors have bolters that can pin enemy units so they cannot react and melee weapons with haywire that can ignore the armor and invul saves on dreadnoughts or inflict automotive penetrating hits to vehicles. Then they have Rites of War that can change troops or even how the army plays. Iron Warriors have a Rite of War that turns artillery tanks into troops.

 

With 30k being marine on marine you would think that it would have the same problem as 40k marines but worse with each legion being pushed into using the best units with incidental use of legion traits relevant to them. Instead just the wargear drastically alters unit choices for some legions and Rites can significantly compound that with legion rules altering how the units are used. With the pinning rules on IW bolters I want to push them up forward hard and aggressively. With IF storm shields I want bolter squads hanging back as fire support for the steadily advancing shield squads.

 

 

40k marines need rules like armies get in these other games. Rules that encourage you to play an army instead of the best datasheets in your codex all coincidentally in the same list and some guys who happen to score objectives. There needs to be a rules team sitting down and looking at what things actually do. We can see how this was done in places in 30k. The Spartan tank has a transport capacity of 26. The Spartan is the premier transport for primarchs and other legion leaders. Bulky (2) models like terminators jump pack models take up 2 spots each. Sanguinius takes up 6 spots as a jump primarch. This means Sanguinius and 10 bodyguards fit in a Spartan cleanly. A rhino transports 12 so you can take a full unit of 10 veterans, a praetor, and an apothecary in one to create your elite command cadre riding in this command vehicle. In 40k a rhino transports 10 people because a normal squad is 5 people minimum and 10 max so you can figure out who gets to ride. An impulsor can transport 6 models because most primaris squads are 5-10, bladeguard veterans are 3-6, and it cannot take gravis. So you can run a character with a not quite full squad of bladeguard or have your chapter master roll out of an impulsor with his 5 veteran intercessor bodyguards and not make a splash because nobody would care about that. 30k isn't perfect ans will need substantial FAQ but you can see the design process in a lot of places. In the 40k marine rules doctrines stand out as a perfect example of the design philosophy. You can see what was intended, you start the game shooting your heavy weapons, get close with you rapid fire guns, and then get into melee to finish it. The problem that occurred was that most of the game the doctrine just didn't matter. As a melee chapter your shooting was often so anemic you weren't going to bring devestators or hellblasters with the heavy plasma guns to try and utilize the 1 turn of AP while you rushed for your assault doctrine you needed to put damage in. As a shooting chapter melee was just mop up, 1 AP wasn't worth trading out the bonuses for your weapons you needed to keep the enemy in check and your melee was just there to grab final objectives and push a couple ObSec bodies off. So GW enforced the design philosophy with rotating buffs that made armies not really play right a lot of the time. Having additional AP for a couple turns doesn't encourage Iron Hands to drop the grav cannons for a couple squads of assault intercessors when it comes at the cost of the accuracy of those grav cannons. It means you have to double down on your one turn of really good grav cannons until you hit a breakpoint where it stops being worth investing in grav cannons at all so you build into generic good datasheets rather than IH army datasheets. Imperial Fists sit in a state where one of the best weapon platforms for using our rules is the Redemptor because it can pack several S7 heavy guns. Other heavy S7+ tend to be things like lascannons or missile launchers with d6 damage where +1 damage isn't anything meaningful. Then the Redemptor competes directly with contemptor which does the same job but often better without interacting with IF rules at all.

 

Seriously, take some time and really look through available marine rules and what seems to be pushed stylistically from the rules and what works out as good units. Then if you don't play AoS or 30k talk to some local AoS and 30k players about their army rules. Pick up and a battletome and see what kind of army it encourages and how well that army plays.

 

In 40k my intercessor sergeants have power fists with the molded IF symbol because it looks cool. In 30k my IW sergeants have power mauls because they are cool, unique in application, strong, thematic, and are a good answer to dreadnoughts (a strong unit in the currently shown rules.) 40k marines need more of the latter, playing Imperial Fists as Imperial Fists I should have an answer to tyranid warriors.

Edited June 1, 2022 by DesuVult

[Mike8404]

 

 

Reroll charges can be often just as good. It’s not like you’ll always roll 6’’ to advance.

but its a range from 3 to 18 instead of 2 to 12 and in addition you can reroll the advance and the chargeroll with stratagem.

on average you have3,5 + 7 = 10,5"

 

average with a reroll is just 8,98"

 

OP? No. I dont know why they killed it but redeploy a jump pack unit and get 3d6 charge with +1 because of chapter tactic was OP.

Iirc, it was nerfed because of a rule a particular chapter had and it's ability to abuse Invictors.

 

Advance and charge is a special ability, I think only one specific chapter should be allowed to have it

and which chapter? WS?

why.

And btw RG and SW have it and BT had it before the supplement.

RG and SW have it at as a strat. WS are the only chapter that have it as a tactic. So really only one chapter has it because strats are a once per turn ability and compete with better abilities. Templars aren't necessarily a pure melee army like we were, so it makes sense we would lose it. We're an attrition army that swings heavier into melee. If we had advance and charge, we'd be OP, which is why we lost it and had our best ability tweeked

[Guest Triszin]

Drop pod, land raiders, storm wolf, caestus ram

 

All given assault disembarkation

- disembark and charge

Maybe at a -2" to charge

[Medjugorje]

 

 

Reroll charges can be often just as good. It’s not like you’ll always roll 6’’ to advance.

but its a range from 3 to 18 instead of 2 to 12 and in addition you can reroll the advance and the chargeroll with stratagem.

on average you have3,5 + 7 = 10,5"

 

average with a reroll is just 8,98"

 

OP? No. I dont know why they killed it but redeploy a jump pack unit and get 3d6 charge with +1 because of chapter tactic was OP.

Iirc, it was nerfed because of a rule a particular chapter had and it's ability to abuse Invictors.

 

Advance and charge is a special ability, I think only one specific chapter should be allowed to have it

and which chapter? WS?

why.

And btw RG and SW have it and BT had it before the supplement.

RG and SW have it at as a strat. WS are the only chapter that have it as a tactic. So really only one chapter has it because strats are a once per turn ability and compete with better abilities. Templars aren't necessarily a pure melee army like we were, so it makes sense we would lose it. We're an attrition army that swings heavier into melee. If we had advance and charge, we'd be OP, which is why we lost it and had our best ability tweeked

 

in the head cannon or what most people think when they see BT --> BT is close combat oriented. 

White Scars used to be just special on bikes and motorized (with a lot of transports). 

 

in the new Supplement there is stated that BT prefer melee. But GW dont see how some rules interact in the game - they just think A+C is fast --> we have it to give WS.

In reality WS are based on the old mongols and they were famous for their bows. So normally they must good with shooty bikes. And Black Knights should be good with the sword. Thats why sword brethren called "melee-weapon-brothers".

 

 

Like I said. GW should give attention to each chapters specific unit.

 

WS should have better Bikes

BT should have better close combat oriented units

BA and RG more focus on jump pack units (RG more on "not be seen / BA more brutal )

 

This means for me that they must aware of their rules that the special units should benefit more then other units. Like White Scars have the best jump pack units which should not be imo - thats a direct hit in each BA and RG face. 

[DesuVult]

Vindicator Demolisher Cannon: 24" Heavy 3d3 S12 AP-3 Dd3+3 Blast

 

Into a unit of Death Guard terminators you actually kill 2 on average.

[Medjugorje]

I think 3+d3 dmg is where anybody agrees.

 

Not just for the Vindicator but for Lascannons too