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Balance Dataslate 2-23-22


Ahzek451
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Good to have B&C back!

As the title says, hooboy...did this one just switch the game for us! If you have not seen it, we got a points update(many drops) and a big balance rule change for us. The much desired Army-wide command protocols sans being close to a noble, tomb spyders and vehicles getting CORE(including silent king), and a command protocol NOT chosen lasts the entire game, in addition to the one currently active that turn. 

Bonkers stuff. Many people have already pointed out in other places what this means and what new synergies have cropped up, one of the biggest being that rights of reanimation can bring back a menier for the SK.(making him incredibly tough) Illuminor tossing out his upgrades on darn near everyone. 

It's fair to say this was a BIG upward change for us. Some rule interactions are now null such as our unique terrain set and it's ability to extend command protocols, and the relic for Szarakhan (the first part does nothing now that Command protocols are army wide). 

Not to mention the Chapter approved CP change, relic and warlord cost. Pretty sure the Silent king is going to pop up everywhere now that his CP bonus, improved defense, and much improved synergy and damage output(now that he is CORE, his re-roll ranged attacks and re-roll wounds work on himself) has skyrocketed. 

Discuss! What are people doing for their lists? Are monoliths decent with the new changes despite still not having FLY and no CP cost if taken in a SH auxillary det? What other things have people spotted with this big shake up?

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I'm looking forward to trying a meme triple-super-list with Szarekh, my Monolith, and my Seraptek, that's for certain! (as well as a more 'reasonable' list with Szarekh, a monolith, and seven or eight hundred points worth of infantry and a few hundred more of support characters). 

I really like the command protocols change, it feels a lot more in line with how you expect them to be: one overarching, always-being-broadcasted command, and then another one that shifts as the needs of the battle dictate. Points drops were also a welcome change.

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I'm loving I can take a Destroyer Lord with Crypteka and not need a Noble to get army wide rules.

As for the army wide rules... wow where do we start? There's such flexibility with it to take a Command Protocol that grants a bonus EVERY TURN. Do we want army wide +1 to saves, or take advantage of our Dynasty bonus every turn? It's truly amazing.

If players want to take vehicle heavy lists they can go with repairing 2 wounds from Living Metal.

There's so much scope it's unreal.

As for whether it'll change things to top tier... maybe. Many weapons just lack consistency or killing power. Obvious exceptions are The Silent King and Heavy Destroyers, plus melee from Skorpekh Destroyers or Lychguard, but against Tau or Eldar with their killing potential I do wonder.

I'd like to revisit Necrons though and that'll be fun to do despite how competitive they are, since they work now.

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120+ points off my (Not quite finished) 2000 point list!

Yay for Technomancers, Tomb Blades, Ghost Arks and Night Scythes!

The codex creep sucked the will to finish my necron army out of me but now its back! Mephrit Force Deleterious is back in business! Soon to threaten a planet near you!

Also Welcome back B&CS!

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My list went from 2k flat to 1840. I havent seen the points so not sure what dropped but ill take. Still trying to figure out what all changed with Protocols. Lots of reading with little understanding for me lol

 

Also not sure how much I like staring with 3cp but im running a battalion + patrol. Guess its time to start from scratch.

Edited by Malakithe
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I'm actually looking forward to playing with my Necrons again for the first time in over a year. I have a game in a couple hours so I guess I'll see how effective the updates are.

 

Previously in making lists it really felt like there just wasn't room for enough units to make the list feel complete. I always felt like I was missing something compared to my other armies. But now I just made a list out of stuff that's painted and it feels like it could work. Or at least be fun. This really changed Dynasties too because of the Protocols. Haven't settled on which to try first!

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I can't wait for Battlescribe to get updated so I can play around with lists.

Skorpekh Destroyers will look amazing with constant +1 Strength and can really start to stack up if needed. I can't wait to use them.

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Curses! I'd just about reconciled myself to the fact that the necron army I'd started when 9th dropped would never be fielded. I was happy playing Titanicus, dnd and bolt action, and looking forward to Heresy. It was enough. But now GW are trying to drag me back into 40k, by making the game far more balanced and perhaps even enjoyable (for me that is, I know lots of people love it and all power to them). Tsk. I'm going to have to build the rest of these flayed ones, aren't I?

It's actually great of course. Now all they need to do is keep the next codexes they release balanced. They won't carry on dropping filth with 65-70% win rates and then nerfing it into the ground after a month, right?

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My game went poorly but that was more because my opponent was not a fun person to play against. I think I would have won had I not conceded just to end it. I was losing on attrition against Death Guard but had enough points I think I would have held the lead. My list was also not very strong in a competitive sense but I held my own so I think the changes are definitely solid. I'd hate to play against my Eldar list still I think but it's a major step in the right direction.

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I'm very excited to have some more fun army builds opened up as viable even if they won't be very meta.  In particular I'm toying with a Crusade list I call 'The Artificers Conclave' which will be lead entirely by Crypteks.  I'm going to use the Sezerkhan Dynasty and select Undying Legion as my permanent protocol for a force that contains a lot of canoptek units.  Spyders, Wraiths, Cryptothralls, and a Tomb Sentinel.  I want to capitalize on the unrestricting of the Nobel keyword, the improvement of protocols, and the expansion of CORE units to run builds that would have been very subpar or non-functional before.

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I missed a lot of what changed because I wasn't reading the text of the Codex alongside the replacement sentences for full comprehension. Seems like the things I have avoided, namely Secondary Objectives and Command Protocols, are now potentially useful and not just more bookkeeping. If I get to play another game of 9th I'll look forward to employing these changes. Vehicles becoming Core opens some nifty combos too.

I will say though, with all these point drops over the editions my painted collection has gotten smaller and smaller without reducing model count. At one point I had almost 4k painted now it's just under 3k!

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1 hour ago, NTaW said:

I will say though, with all these point drops over the editions my painted collection has gotten smaller and smaller without reducing model count. At one point I had almost 4k painted now it's just under 3k!

Ya, my greatest disappointment was that none of our relatively weak units that are supposed to be strong got buffed. Specifically the Doomsday stuff.  Codex creep turned our 'big guns' into jokes.  Adding CORE to them isn't quite what they needed. 

Still happy overall of course. 

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At least it hit some of the universal things fans were asking for. I too wish for some quality of life fixes, doomsday ark, some relic and warlord tweeks, etc. But these things will only ever come with a new codex. Just wish the hexmark was more lethal. I appreciate the points drop, but he still hits like a stiff breeze. 

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If I manage to get a game in I wonder how tricky it will be to land MWBD on my pair of Doom Scythes from my CCB. I guess they could start together for a little bonus to T1 shooting and maybe reconnect later.

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Just played a game against Knights, using a pretty terrible list (2x Doomstalkers, Monolith, Triarch Stalker) that I put together just to play with some units I rarely use, and still managed to go 72-92. Wasn't bad at all, especially since I didn't have my lovely Skorpekh or a lot of troops (only two units of Immortals)- the Command Protocols being always active was good, and it was super funny to Veil the Monolith into the opponent's backfield (even though it died quickly afterwards).

With an actual list, I'm thinking that the Necrons are now going to be well above medium-tier and might be a contender for some actual tournament wins. The massive points deductions over the past couple of field manuals and the CORE gains/Command Protocol buffs have really helped them out and even though there are still some issues (swingy damage, invulns on Monolith, Doomstalker not being a Vehicle, etc...) the core of the army seems strong. I'm pretty happy with how the faction is right now, we'll see how it goes in the future.

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1 hour ago, Lord_Ikka said:

Just played a game against Knights, using a pretty terrible list (2x Doomstalkers, Monolith, Triarch Stalker) that I put together just to play with some units I rarely use, and still managed to go 72-92. Wasn't bad at all, especially since I didn't have my lovely Skorpekh or a lot of troops (only two units of Immortals)- the Command Protocols being always active was good, and it was super funny to Veil the Monolith into the opponent's backfield (even though it died quickly afterwards).

With an actual list, I'm thinking that the Necrons are now going to be well above medium-tier and might be a contender for some actual tournament wins. The massive points deductions over the past couple of field manuals and the CORE gains/Command Protocol buffs have really helped them out and even though there are still some issues (swingy damage, invulns on Monolith, Doomstalker not being a Vehicle, etc...) the core of the army seems strong. I'm pretty happy with how the faction is right now, we'll see how it goes in the future.

Did you play with Nephilim rules? Curious how people are doing with the lower starting CP

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27 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

Did you play with Nephilim rules? Curious how people are doing with the lower starting CP

Yup- I had the Silent King though, so I started with 9 and then went down to I think 7 with his Warlord Trait purchase (which I'm unsure if is required for named Characters, but I did it anyway so if it gets FAQ'd I'll be ready) and the Veil relic. With not having Skorpekhs, and thus not having them suck up a CP or two every turn for Whirling Onslaught, I didn't wind up using a lot of CP- the regeneration kept pretty close pace with my expenditure and I ended the game with 3CP left. Without the King I would have been at 5 or 4 (if I chose to give someone a WT or another relic), but it still seems fairly decent as far as regenerating CP per turn.

 

I think the only issue is for those that want to front-load a lot of WT/relics combined with multiple detachments, then you may run into CP issues. My opponent had that, as he only had 1CP to start with and had to very carefully manage his CP over the course of the game; several times he passed up a good opportunity to Command Re-roll on defense because he needed to save the CP for his turn to use offensive strats.

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I geuss I'm not seeing it. I pulled out my chronomancer and monolith and there wasnt a spot that allowed each model to be wholly within each other. I would slide the chronomancer right up against it and the back of the mancers base wouldn't allow it to cover the corners of the monolith, let alone its base. It specifies both have to be wholly within each other, and measuring from all points of the mancers round base doesnt cover the entire hull/base of the monolith. *shrugs*

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I could have measured wrong- we were playing a fun game and not super worried about specifics. I don't think it is that useful anyway, the Monolith is still pretty terrible and dies too quickly to focused fire (especially against Knights!) for anyone to use them as a staple for their army. 

I am working up a real list, and I think the Necrons could be quite scary now depending on what dynasty you choose and what protocol you keep always-on. Looking forward to a rematch against my buddy where I run a real tournament list rather than something that's super casual.

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Currently, I'm looking at this. 

2000 points, 6 CP

Dynasty: Novokh; Awakened by Murder Dynastic Code (+1 to Charge, +1 to AP in melee when Charge(d)/Heroic Intervention)

Command Protocol that is constant - Hungry Void: +1 Str if Charging/Charged/Heroic, on 6s to Wound +1 AP (total of +2 w/Novokh code)

Pre-deployment Stratagems- Warlord Trait (-1CP), Relic (-1CP), Dynastic Heirlooms (-1CP): +1 Relic

Battalion Detachment

HQ

Overlord (90pts): Warscythe. RELIC (Blood Scythe)

Technomancer (70pts): Canoptek Control Node.

Chronomancer (85pts): Entropic Lance. RELIC (Veil of Darkness)

Troops

Immortals (80pts): 5x Gauss Blasters

Immortals (80pts): 5x Gauss Blasters

Immortals (80pts): 5x Tesla Carbines

Elites

Canoptek Spyders (140pts): 2x Automaton Claws, 2x 2 Particle Beamers

Flayed Ones (50pts): 5x Flayer Claws

Lychguard (125pts): 5x Hyperhase Sword and Dispersion Shield

Skorpekh Destroyers (180pts): 2x Hyperphase Reap-Blade, 4x Hyperphase Threshers

Skorpekh Destroyers (180pts): 2x Hyperphase Reap-Blade, 4x Hyperphase Threshers

Skorpekh Destroyers (180pts): 2x Hyperphase Reap-Blade, 4x Hyperphase Threshers

Fast Attack

Canoptek Wraiths (210pts): 6x Vicious Claws

Heavy Support

Lokhust Heavy Destroyer (50pts): Gauss Destructor

Supreme Command Detachment

The Silent King (400pts): WARLORD: The Triarch’s Will

 

I love Skorpekh, so having Novokh's dynasty trait and their protocol always on will be a nasty combo. The Immortals/Flayed Ones/Lychguard provide a decent amount of both Obsec and action units, while the Skorpekh/Wraiths/Silent King are nasty enough that the enemy has to engage them. The Spyders will be switched out for another two Heavy Destroyers when I get them, but are still ok now that they are CORE. This is a variation of lists I've used before, but with the addition of the Silent King rather than C'tan (just got him), and the previous lists worked fairly well before the buffs. Only issue I've really had was against Nid swarm lists, just because the guants/gants tarpitted my Skorpekh and I couldn't kill them fast enough.

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