Post Nephilim Black Templars - State of the Chapter 2022

[Tokugawa]

2 hours ago, Medjugorje said:

depends on your list I would say. But I am not convinced by CS. Normal Intercessors can shoot twice if its immportant and assault intercessors can fight twice. Because AoC the Neophytes are not superior to normal marines anymore.

I come home from a competitve training session and in my gaming club. What I learned is that CS just work when you have enough other units which have enough fire support. You need the storm speeders and stuff like that. I always more into the flamer. Very sad that the 2dmg never gone threw the playsting phase. I dont know if 15 points for the relic variant is really worth it but in tactical phase S6 -4AP with autohits sounds not that bad.

 

BTW... I did loose against the drukhari again... and again it was very painful although it was not that painful. But I made 12 points even I was tabled in last round with the new secoundary. Assault squad is fine but 90 points for the cheapest unit we have is a tax. Marines have a big problem in competitve games right now. 

After all, PCS are troops and are just troops. If opponent throw an elite unit which cost ~180pts, clash with your PCS and you usually win, then his codex is under seriously balance problem.

I think on events stage, (one of) the baddest thing for a faction, is not "your staple unit X is overpriced now" or "faction Y hard counter your army". It is "army Z do the similar thing as you, but they are better". Which means competitive players who favor this playstyle will abbandon your faction and turn to Z. Once the best players gone, the win% of the faction will fall quickly, and only hardcore true-love fans playing this faction means few innovative ideas could be created for other players to improve the performance. We already seen IF be "overwritten" by UM, and UM "overwritten" by IH in 9th. Now our IF brothers are the most miserable faction in 9th. I feel new CSM has potential of "overwrite" us...

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

After a codex has been out for awhile you’re probably not going to see much innovation sure there can be some but most of it already has happened.

[Marshal Mittens]

I wonder if the new SM codex will be delayed until 10e if 10e drops next summer?

[Emperor Ming]

Na, try thinking on how gw think

Gw wants marine players to buy a 2.0 dex, then release 10th, then a month or so then a 10th dex to buy

If they skipped, then there would be one less round of profits

and whoever tries to suggest that they only sell one codex to marine players in a six month period rather than two in the boardroom would get sentenced to Servitude Imperpituis

[Marshal Reinhard]

As I've said elsewhere, the ugly precedent of having 2 marine codex in an edition has already been set. We know there's some marine units coming, and the other chapters also want their chapter books this edition. Wouldn't surprise me if a 2nd 9th ed codex would coincide with those coming out, and then we get to 10th

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Sounds like there’ll be another codex. I’m convinced the developers don’t like SM in general.

[Medjugorje]

the rumors say early next year and 10th in mid 23. 

[Tokugawa]

BT had set a very high standard about "how the new primaris products of a loyalist chapter should look like". If the players of first founding 6 still only receive 1 plastic character model(even this guy don't fit the theme of the chapter at all) when their books arrive, I cannot imagine the disappointment and rage…

[Medjugorje]

rumors say that ther is not even one chapter specific unit but Blood Angels get the Black Templars treatment

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I've moved some off topic posts from the Assault Squad chat into this thread, and renamed it to make the topic of its conversation more clear. Please, continue your debate!

Edited July 31, 2022 by Brother Adelard

[Tokugawa]

Statistic data shows that our faction secondaries are not good:

 

[Emperor Ming]

Is that not just due to numbers of actual black templars players vs other factions or not?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I almost always take oath and engage - always do well with these two. Sure am glad I’m enjoying the faction and winning a lot. 

[Medjugorje]

I never thought its that bad^^ But honestly our big thing is the primary game and  thats a huge amount of game --> Is it really just nephilim?

And be aware that there are a lot of fun gamers which take our weaker secoundaries because of fluff reasons.

Edited August 1, 2022 by Medjugorje

[Tokugawa]

6 hours ago, Emperor Ming said:

Is that not just due to numbers of actual black templars players vs other factions or not?

Allow is just (arguably weaker) variant of Shock tactics, and Carry is variant of Grind them down. These two have much bigger sample size and are proved below average(6.60 and 6.56 VP per game) choice. 

 

Bathe(6.48 VP) is standard "hero duel" secondary now, and it is still not powerful. SW and WE has identical secondaries and also don't score high(6.76 and 6.38).

Edited August 1, 2022 by Tokugawa

[Medjugorje]

I think Allow is the better version of Shock tactics because you dont have to fullfill it each turn. But yes - do it 3 times and you still have 9 points - you have to do it much more often with ALLOW. 

 

The biggest problem here is that Marines are not tough enough and such secoundaries are always a Trade thing which Marines cannot to well because our cheapest core unit is 90 points ---> so most opponent can use this trade game against us. Our secoundaries used to be the worst of all  and they are still not really good but way better then before nephilim.

Edited August 1, 2022 by Medjugorje

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

There are other secondaries that lend themselves well to BT play style.

[Medjugorje]

which one? I think that "allow" is the strongest - and its not even Strong (B+ Tier)

[Emperor Ming]

I'm currently looking at Templars as a secondary army, but I have lots of reservations

Like, all the chaos marines seem to do combat somewhat better, then they are supported by cheap troops, piles of good rules and then psykers on top never mind things like abbadon, mortarion as well

Do you hold on turn one, or charge off onto objectives, which sounds like a recipe for being obliterated

What do you do for action monkeys, servitors maybe 

Units that can charge turn 1, like eldar, how do you even set up for that, unless the player intents to sacrifice crusaders but then that's not a cheap sacrifice

[Tokugawa]

1 hour ago, Emperor Ming said:

I'm currently looking at Templars as a secondary army, but I have lots of reservations

Like, all the chaos marines seem to do combat somewhat better, then they are supported by cheap troops, piles of good rules and then psykers on top never mind things like abbadon, mortarion as well

Do you hold on turn one, or charge off onto objectives, which sounds like a recipe for being obliterated

What do you do for action monkeys, servitors maybe 

Units that can charge turn 1, like eldar, how do you even set up for that, unless the player intents to sacrifice crusaders but then that's not a cheap sacrifice

Retrieve Nep data are never good choice for loyalist Marines. So loyalist marine don't often pick the secondaries which need to perform actions for a whole turn(RTB is finished on own turn) and needn't introduce more action-monkey type units. 

[Danosborne]

I play Templars and Word Bearers and although I don’t play Nephilim (I play tenpest of war mostly), I have to agree that the Word Bearers feel like a pumped up version of the black Templars. I’ve seen a lot of people talking about how good the word bearers secondary is too. 

[Medjugorje]

there are 2 years between those two codex books and even our supplement is about one year old. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

We have the EC. 

[SirJyo]

Chaos might have the edge momentarily but in true GW style, they will be outdone by codex 2.0 in not so long.

Edited August 23, 2022 by SirJyo
Off topic

[Medjugorje]

new statistics? I ve heard that Marines struggle very hard.