How does GW work?

[Medjugorje]

Hi fellows,

 

after the new point changes and data slate i was very concerned that Sword Brethren ( really bad unit, never seen in any close to successful tournament list) still the same (points and rules) while Sanguards (one of the best units) get point drops ( you can change the word Sanguards with a lot of SoB units...)

 

How can such mistakes happen?

[Noserenda]

I mean, the obvious answer is that GW do not agree with your assessments 

[Medjugorje]

honestly. I dont think thats why. They cannot be so dumb - they must see the success of BA last time (the best Marine lists are BA with lots of Sanguards) and there is really NO single successful tournament list with Sword brethren. 

 

Could it be that they need too much time? Where they get their data from? Do they look on tournament lists or do they just read threw forums? 

[Sugarlessllama]

Well it seems that they have access to tournament data, which is what they reference when making the changes. As for what gets changed and why, my guess would be that there is a lot of data that we are not seeing. They may also be including points changes in the main SM codex as part of their decision making on what to change or not change in the BT codex. 

I don't know why they do what they do, but I'm sure there is a reason for it. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 hours ago, Medjugorje said:

honestly. I dont think thats why. They cannot be so dumb - they must see the success of BA last time (the best Marine lists are BA with lots of Sanguards) and there is really NO single successful tournament list with Sword brethren. 

 

Could it be that they need too much time? Where they get their data from? Do they look on tournament lists or do they just read threw forums? 

It’s what happens when you’re the coolest and the best

[Medjugorje]

I dont get it. What do you mean? 

[Slave to Darkness]

I think GW just stick random points values on the wall then throw darts at them and hope for the best. 

[Valkyrion]

There's some things I don't get too. Do Scouts see any action? Judiciars? Would they if their price was halved, or are they just competing with too many better things regardless of their cost? Hunters, Stalkers, basic dreadnoughts, the flyers etc. 

It couldn't be anything to do with all those models being old or not directly available from GW could it? Or is that too cynical?

[Medjugorje]

Judiciars are not that bad. With Black Templars or Death Watch and Space Wolves you can Heroic intervene 6". Fight last is a powerful ability. If the price would be halved. I would play one every single game.

 

Scouts are old and replaced by Infiltrators and Incursors. But there are many other units, new units which are terrible bad. 

30 minutes ago, Slave to Darkness said:

I think GW just stick random points values on the wall then throw darts at them and hope for the best. 

of course it feels like that. But honestly, I want some serious answers how they work. I think they have a specific process. The question is where their mistakes come from. Overall the most changes are good - so you can see that there is research. 

[WARMASTER_]

10 hours ago, Medjugorje said:

Hi fellows,

 

after the new point changes and data slate i was very concerned that Sword Brethren ( really bad unit, never seen in any close to successful tournament list) still the same (points and rules) while Sanguards (one of the best units) get point drops ( you can change the word Sanguards with a lot of SoB units...)

 

How can such mistakes happen?

They’ll be a myriad of factors you’re not taking into account

Internal balance of a codex is equally as important to a units strength as is the meta you’re playing in, you’re comparing a foot slogging elite unit [SB] to a Jump pack unit with completely different weapon options movement speed and role within the force you’re fielding 

 

you can’t just say X [SG] unit is doing really well so my Y [SB] unit should get improved upon 

both units act completely differently on the battle field and have different tactical roles so it’s not a comparison 

 

Also in regards to internal balance of a codex with ever shifting metas certain units will have a time Shine but not every unit on the codex can just always be “competitive” there’s too many balances factors in 40K for that to be the case 

 

[Slave to Darkness]

12 minutes ago, Medjugorje said:

Judiciars are not that bad. With Black Templars or Death Watch and Space Wolves you can Heroic intervene 6". Fight last is a powerful ability. If the price would be halved. I would play one every single game.

 

Scouts are old and replaced by Infiltrators and Incursors. But there are many other units, new units which are terrible bad. 

of course it feels like that. But honestly, I want some serious answers how they work. I think they have a specific process. The question is where their mistakes come from. Overall the most changes are good - so you can see that there is research. 

I think the problem is they have too many units spread across too many codex books to keep track of it all. Keep releasing new kits to keep us giving our money is #1 priority, anything else is an after thought. 

[MARK0SIAN]

I think it’s a case that, even though they’ve finally started to alter and improve data sheets rather than just change points to balance units, they won’t change the data sheet unless it’s really dire like giving Leman Russ tanks a 2+. 
 

This means that even though Sword Brethren might need a points cut, they’re mainly not taken because of their datasheet abilities coupled with the weird weapon loadout they force on you for box compliance. A points cut wouldn’t really fix them so they leave them alone. Sanguinary Guard on the other hand have a solid data sheet so can be effectively balanced just with points costs.

Basically I think they prioritise points changes for units that can actually be balanced via points changes rather than units which need more of an overhaul. There’s only a finite amount of time they’ve got so they can’t adjust datasheets for loads of units at a time so they kind of get left in limbo. 
 

All this is just a theory though, I’ve obviously got no inside info :)

[Medjugorje]

52 minutes ago, Slave to Darkness said:

I think the problem is they have too many units spread across too many codex books to keep track of it all. Keep releasing new kits to keep us giving our money is #1 priority, anything else is an after thought. 

especially then. Both are Elite units which is 90 percent melee, one of them have mobility / speed, more firepower, way more damage, even better shooting, better saves. The only thing which SB have is to ignore negative effects while sanguards dont have any on their rules. And for that they cost 5 points more? You can compare those two. And the internal balance is close. A Intercessor squad with Fist of Balthus is very close to what sword brothers do (and have other -better- abilities like obsec and being in the troop slot). Sword Brethren are completely new and still bad in the game. This would be the perfect time to make them viable.

 

Intercessors against MEQ in superdoctrine: 115 points

 3 dead marines (with one additional intercessor for  same points on average 0,67 more wounds) 

 

sword brethren against MEWQ in superdoctrine - all with swords and one thunderhammer: 134

4 dead marines

 

very close but Intercessors already have obsec and fill the troop slot. And the Intercessors have a stratagem which allows to fight twice which is perfect with Fist of Balthus. 

And thats calculated with Sword intstead of chainswords (everything in favour to SB). while Sanguards (in doctrine but not superdoctrine) :

7 dead marines

 

or should we compare them to 3 bladeguars (and they are not good because of output but because of INPUT):

5 dead marines

 

Edited June 25, 2022 by Medjugorje

[Medjugorje]

29 minutes ago, MARK0SIAN said:

I think it’s a case that, even though they’ve finally started to alter and improve data sheets rather than just change points to balance units, they won’t change the data sheet unless it’s really dire like giving Leman Russ tanks a 2+. 
 

This means that even though Sword Brethren might need a points cut, they’re mainly not taken because of their datasheet abilities coupled with the weird weapon loadout they force on you for box compliance. A points cut wouldn’t really fix them so they leave them alone. Sanguinary Guard on the other hand have a solid data sheet so can be effectively balanced just with points costs.

Basically I think they prioritise points changes for units that can actually be balanced via points changes rather than units which need more of an overhaul. There’s only a finite amount of time they’ve got so they can’t adjust datasheets for loads of units at a time so they kind of get left in limbo. 
 

All this is just a theory though, I’ve obviously got no inside info :)

Maybe thats it. Sword Brethren are that bad that point drops could not help them... 

 

Edited June 25, 2022 by Medjugorje

[MARK0SIAN]

I do think they have learnt from last edition that points drops can’t fix everything. They tried that last time and it just led to a race to the bottom with some units getting cheaper and cheaper every time until they became absurdly cheap and were still never ever taken because they were just so bad, the land raider is a case in point. 

So now I think they’re reluctant to drop points if they don’t think it will solve the problem and they tend to just leave them alone. 

The other things is that, overall, the balance/points updates seem more about reigning in or tweaking the top performing stuff rather than bringing up the underperforming stuff. Not in all cases obviously but that’s the general impression I get.

[Slave to Darkness]

Might be to push sales of firstborn, I think they realised not everybody is gonna buy Primaris. 

Things may change when they do the next Marine codex, and I can see that happening soon as Chaos Marines are looking to be badass. Cant have their main faction/range lagging behind. You need patience with GW, this looks like its gonna be the best Chaos dex since 2nd ed. Hopefully marine players wont have to wait as long as us Chaos degenerates to get things on track. 

[Medjugorje]

But Sword brethren dont get any special thing which other units do not gain. If there is a spcical rule  then INtercessors and Sanguards get it too.

 

They have to deal it not on any faction rule but on their datasheet or their points.

[Medjugorje]

Another perfect thing is Chosen vs Sword Brethren.

 

Everything the same statline (except shock assault vs +1 attack in general prfile) and same weapons (swords). Same points but CHosen have +1 wound^^

[Sword Brother Adelard]

And Sword Brethren get access to Vows without the downsides?

From what I've seen on the Sword Brethren topic, their biggest critic is you, other competitive players rate them reasonably highly, and maybe GW didn't decrease their points because they don't agree with your assessment? 

 

[Helias_Tancred]

Your complaint has been a consistent pattern going back to 6th edition when I started playing, and most likely before that. Why did X unit get a point reduction but Y unit is in the same situation and they didn't get a point reduction?

Too many units, a myriad of reasons on GW's behalf that covers game mechanics, sales, marketing, future plans, etc.

You can analyze it very logically and objectively every time and you'll just end up frustrated lol. Long ago I likened it to a  bus. Sometimes you're on the bus and things are good, and other times you're left standing at the bus stop in the rain. But don't worry, because the GW bus ONLY goes in circles (unless you're CSM), at some point it will come back around and pick you up (while kicking others off). 

 

Edited June 27, 2022 by Helias Tancred

[Medjugorje]

15 hours ago, Brother Adelard said:

And Sword Brethren get access to Vows without the downsides?

From what I've seen on the Sword Brethren topic, their biggest critic is you, other competitive players rate them reasonably highly, and maybe GW didn't decrease their points because they don't agree with your assessment? 

 

Maybe. Because ACEBAUR from IN like them so much and (MAYBE) GW listen to that although every single successfull BT tournament player says they are not good.

[Medjugorje]

A also think that GW does not have the capacity what they usually need. I think they have a team which have normally another role in the company and they´ve given an additional task. Thats why the qualitity is not that good.

 

OR

 

Its just the progress which teir processes need too much time.

[Xenith]

Do you have a link to the recent Blood Angels Major Tournament wins you indicate? Keen to see their lists!

On 6/25/2022 at 3:09 AM, Medjugorje said:

they must see the success of BA last time (the best Marine lists are BA with lots of Sanguards) and there is really NO single successful tournament list with Sword brethren. 

 

[Sword Brother Adelard]

1 hour ago, Medjugorje said:

Maybe. Because ACEBAUR from IN like them so much and (MAYBE) GW listen to that although every single successfull BT tournament player says they are not good.

It's not just Ace, and Bob for that matter. Many others rate them too. I asked one of the comp players I know what he thought and he said:

"Yeah they’re good value for the points, just a high skill unit so difficult to use well and not very forgiving, So lots of mediocre players whine about them."

[phandaal]

1 hour ago, Xenith said:

Do you have a link to the recent Blood Angels Major Tournament wins you indicate? Keen to see their lists!

 

Goonhammer has write-ups with a lot of those lists. Basically as many Sanguinary Guard as possible with other jump pack support.

Best Coast Pairings probably has them, and Blood of Kittens will have them eventually.