The new CP amounts, a question of what's balanced?

[chapter master 454]

So I put this here because this is fairly general in that all factions drink from the same well here and that goes for even power armoured boys (and gals).

GW gave us this new move where they have seemingly hit CP in multiple ways that is outright brutal when taken in total.
First, we have the fact the game now has 1 less CP for use just in general. 6 + 10 /=/ 17 like we used to have. We now have 16 per player once the final turn rolls full, so just out of the gate we have that minor point. We secondly have the fact they now have mangled starting CP from 12 to 6 and opted to give players CP in both command phases per battle round, this is fairly nasty as most armies could easily blow through 4-5CP for just shiny toys of various boosts along with expenditure for extra detachments like the reliable Pocket Patrol. Outright this is the biggest hit to CP and now the third factor: No more free Trait and Relic. This is another 2CP swing in taxing players which technically could be considered draining another 2CP from the CP pool we originally had. This change also means that all armies could with ease blow all 6CP purely on getting Warlord Traits and Relics and start the game with 0CP.

Now that those changes have been made clear, we now have to discuss: Was this a good idea or a bit too much all at once?
 On one end of the argument this does mean you have to make a choice between long term benefits from more WLTs and Relics or having those explosive first round punches from stratagems. It also means bringing a Pocket Patrol is now a bit of a tax instead of a fairly easily justified expense (it went from 1/6 of starting CP to 1/3). A lot of this does mean players will need to take more time considering and weighing their options between having CP available for stratagems and re-rolls, or having a boosted character or valuable long term aura relic/trait.
 However on the other, it means the 3 specialist detachments are now even further from being useful and have no actual merit now. Cost half your starting CP is far too much and a lot of armies are now even more pigeon holed into taking Battalions or Patrols. There is another factor that people...we kind of like tricking out our characters and having them be epic heroes but with this change there could be a very real possible chance of the game moving to Stat-sticks bashing each other, with even more pressure put on units raw stats instead of what they can bring in terms of utility via stratagems or interesting combos with relics/traits.

I feel personally, it does in some way help stop the fact that pocket patrol was an inexpensive way to dodge the character limiter that most factions have however it now does mean that Vanguard, Outrider and Spearhead are outright garbage detachments with no value in them, troops in the game currently are extremely important and you should be taking about 3 anyway (if not more) and you will most certainly have at least 2 HQs you want (heck, Pocket Patrol was a way of getting 2 more HQ slots because they are THAT good).
Another factor is it does mean you have to balance between relics, traits and stratagems you want to use but it now means some stratagems are just never going to get used at all now because costing 2CP is now a major expense and anything that does 3CP or more needs to be able to pick your kids up from school while you play 40k to have merit in using. A lot of factors to consider and some thoughts I had maybe to help the specialist detachments that let them stand out is maybe offer unique benefits, such as the mandatory taken units gain the CORE keyword by default or have Objective Secured (with monsters and vehicles counting for 5 models).

What are your thoughts my fellow fraters. Let us get back to what we do best: Discussing plastic soldiers!

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I think it's a mostly positive change.  The one thing about it I do not like is the no first WLT/relic for free; those went a long way towards allowing you to really customize your HQs and make them stand out a bit from the bare datasheet.  If the concern they were trying to mitigate is too many combos I get it, but that could have been halted in other ways.

 

In any case, I see two camps developing as a result and I really think it depends largely on the codex and subfaction you're playing out of determining which one most folks will slot into: either you go deep into your CP pool for pre-game and start-of-game strats and gear, or you horde them for in-game strats.  (Sub)factions will really good WLTs, relics, and pre-game strats will want to blow most if not all on those to reap the benefits, for example; everyone else will probably dip their toe but keep probably 3-4 CP in reserve for first turn strat use.

[MARK0SIAN]

I really like this change. It was way too easy to simply take all the good stuff pregame and still have CP left to use on a brutal combo in the first turn. Now people will have to decide.

This might also help identify some units in need of a tweak. For example, units that aren’t strong on their own but were taken because they could be fed a lot of CP for powerful abilities might be easier to identify. 

I also like it purely because it will hopefully reduce the number of strats played in a turn. People putting together 3-4 powerful strats in a turn, either in combination or just as separate plays was really unfun to play against.

Hopefully it will also turn some of the no brainer strats into more considered moves. Transhuman for example was so often a no brainer decision to use, your important unit is getting shot at by something nasty so auto use transhuman. Now though, you’ve got to weigh up whether it’s worth using with much scarcer CP or do you save them so you can use a strat in your own turn. 

Finally, from a more personal and subjective point of view, I’m just glad to (hopefully) see strats become less of an issue for the game. I feel like the game has simply become all about the strats and which combos you can make with them and the relic/warlord traits/secondaries rather than the units themselves. Hopefully this will reign that in a bit. 

Edited June 26, 2022 by MARK0SIAN

[Son of Sacrifice]

It sorta feels like they might want to get rid of stratagems, doesn't it? From handing out CP like skittles midway through 8th to this. 

[Slave to Darkness]

I like it, less stratagems the better. 

[Emperor Ming]

Yep its better

strats, multiple warlord traits etc, were getting out of hand

My only minor issue, is that my scions would like a heavy support and fast attack option so they could form a brigade so we can at least have some cp to buy a relic and a wl trait

 

[Cleon]

Personally I think the issue was more multiple characters with relics/warlord traits and characters stacking multiple of them. My preference would have been to keep the first one free, but up the cost of going back to that well or restrict getting more by game size. With what they've done however I'd have preferred they let you take a relic OR warlord trait free but then charge for the other so we do get some customisation of 'our dudes' at baseline.

Edited June 26, 2022 by Cleon
I can't type...

[The Yncarne]

I think this is a bad move mid-edition. I’d applaud it if more things that used to be on the data card weren’t now stratagems or my luck of the laughing god wasn’t nerfed this week. But mid edition with some codexes remaining just seems short sighted. 
 

I’ve also got to figure out where these changes are and add them to pile of errata to recall. 

[Slave to Darkness]

1 hour ago, The Blood Raven said:

I think this is a bad move mid-edition. I’d applaud it if more things that used to be on the data card weren’t now stratagems or my luck of the laughing god wasn’t nerfed this week. But mid edition with some codexes remaining just seems short sighted. 
 

I’ve also got to figure out where these changes are and add them to pile of errata to recall. 

Make a mess mid edition, admit the games bloated and confusing, push out 10th edition... Then repeat. Cant wait for 11th ed in 2025 lol. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Personally i never liked the CP system.

either abilities are in a regiment/chapter/etc section or they’re in the data sheet of the units and can be used as you wish or once per game.

 

I just don’t really have the time nor inclination to put towards memorizing 40 special rules per army I play, let alone per army I might play against.

 

I wouldn’t mind if CP went down to 5-8 and was only used for pre-game stuff like WLTs and relics, the only limit on each being the CP itself

Edited June 26, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Karhedron]

Part of the problem is that the change affects factions very unevenly. Space Marines for example rely heavily on pre-game stratagems to strengthen their Characters and quite a few units lean heavily on in-game strats as well (Transhuman especially). The only mitigation as far as Marines go is that their decent selection of Troop units make filling a Battalion easier than some factions.

Eldar don't lean so heavily on Traits and Relics but suffer heavily from really poor Troop units. I normally ran Patrol + Spearhead to keep the Troop-tax down but that is going to be painful going forward so I may have to resort to running 3x5 Rangers since Guardians are such poor Troops.

My concern that this could shake up the meta in completely unanticipated ways. Armies that don't rely heavily on Stratagems could do very well while others could be unexpectedly nerfed. I think Imperial Knights in particular are going to struggle as they need to spam Questoris or Armigers to get the CP refund for their Detachment. Poor old Dominus were already struggling from a lack of synergy and I think this is going to make them unplayable,

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Here’s to hoping for less prominence of CP in the future 

[MegaVolt87]

Good change. 2 CP to kit your warlord with WLT and relic, unpopular opinion- you don't need relics. Its better to spend 2 CP on two WLT on both HQ's. Relics are a smokescreen to hide the fact HQ customization has practically disappeared. Its only going to become more apparent now how bad HQ customization has gone. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

35 minutes ago, MegaVolt87 said:

Good change. 2 CP to kit your warlord with WLT and relic, unpopular opinion- you don't need relics. Its better to spend 2 CP on two WLT on both HQ's. Relics are a smokescreen to hide the fact HQ customization has practically disappeared. Its only going to become more apparent now how bad HQ customization has gone. 

Just in general CP is a bad game mechanic imho

[MegaVolt87]

23 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Just in general CP is a bad game mechanic imho

Oh absolutely for matched play. But this change is better than no change. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

3 minutes ago, MegaVolt87 said:

Oh absolutely for matched play. But this change is better than no change. 

CP should 100% be relegated to pregame use.

if strats are going to be a thing you buy them pregame as general army special rules or in relevant cases, unit special rules.

drop buying detachments for CP completely as that makes no fething sense at all.

[WAR]

For my Adepta Sororitas it sucks losing the CP pregame, I mean Warlord trait on Canoness, Relic on Canoness, Saint in the Making (WL Trait) on Palatine, and  Relic on Palatine then most of my CP were hardly used except for at certain times. Now I can't give the second relic which neither of my relics were weapons.  My other armies, Grey Knights and Raptors, I usually did not go crazy with Relics and Warlord trait. 

Now my local gaming group is in discussion to allow us to use the First player turn CP for Pregame so for my Adepta Sororitas will start with 4. use 4, and not have cp til player 2 turn 1

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

This just shows the development team doesn’t really know what they are doing and overreact to everything.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 hours ago, Black Blow Fly said:

This just shows the development team doesn’t really know what they are doing and overreact to everything.

Or they know what they’re doing and just making rules to create new challenges in the game.

[phandaal]

8 hours ago, war009 said:

For my Adepta Sororitas it sucks losing the CP pregame, I mean Warlord trait on Canoness, Relic on Canoness, Saint in the Making (WL Trait) on Palatine, and  Relic on Palatine then most of my CP were hardly used except for at certain times. Now I can't give the second relic which neither of my relics were weapons.  My other armies, Grey Knights and Raptors, I usually did not go crazy with Relics and Warlord trait. 

Now my local gaming group is in discussion to allow us to use the First player turn CP for Pregame so for my Adepta Sororitas will start with 4. use 4, and not have cp til player 2 turn 1

Been seeing some people keeping the starting CP nerf and ignoring the WLT/Relic changes. Seems to work better.

[MegaVolt87]

Call me crazy- why not have two ways to pay for relics and WLT's, CP's and/or points to get them. Just occurred to me looking at Custode cpt commander upgrades which cost points and are basically a WLT to me as I see it. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

If it weren’t for the CP for first WLT and relic I’ve like it but you know good ole geedub how they always go way overboard - essentially shooting themself in their own foot… at this point all I can do is laugh and wait to see what they screw up next. Wouldn’t surprise if they if they have to publicly renege on the CPs it’s so unpopular.

[MegaVolt87]

I'm actually not caught in the detail of how this has been implemented. Is it apart of this 40k seasons comp play initiative ?  Or is it like, an eternal this is how it is now OG FAQ? If its the seasons thing, its very easy for GW to walk this back I guess and re-think of how to re-work the mechanics. 

[BrainFireBob]

Second the first WLT is free.

 

I'm intrigued at the idea of buying a pool of strats upfront as a "hand". Going to file that to try someday.

[Karhedron]

The problem with buying CPs pre-game is that undermines the philosophy of them being reactive to in-game situations. Stratagems were used to replace things like Smoke Launchers that people never bought because they were always the first thing people ditched to save points. If you turn them into pre-game purchases, you are back to the situation we were in before where some stuff never gets taken. No one would pre-buy Smoke over THP but sometimes smoke will come in handy during a game.