Firstborn changes we'd like to see in the next Codex Space Marines

[Schlitzaf]

42 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

Don't Chaos Chosen have 3 wounds but Chaos Terminators also have 3 wounds, yet the armour gives characters an extra wound...

It is arbitrary for balance. I'm happy enough Bladeguard having 3 wounds anyway.

Regardless, yes it is off topic but bringing it back... 

I would like to see Sternguard and Vanguard made equivalent to Chosen. For the first time ever their rules are better which is great. 

Oh blimey, this isn't just Firstborn but affects our characters and units more... Plasma! Stop having it blow up and kill whole model for goodness sake. Whole characters? A Sergeant is bad enough.

It would help our combi Sergeants too.

For the tecord irl its more or less based on a units base size (SBros main exception)

[Blindhamster]

20 minutes ago, Kallas said:

Right, but "powered up by Chaos" is different to "literally no reason."

They actually don’t have tacticus, their armour has a different name, it’s still mk x, think it’s “mk x crusader” or something, it has a significantly more armoured chest and shoulders and gauntlets and knees and hips.

 

 

 

but anyway, I think sternguard need a bump to feel as good as vanguard, not sure exactly what it could be though

[Schlitzaf]

More on topic for thread:

The main honest change I’d do for Firstborn (Infantry) espacially those in the troop slot, is reducing all the gear by 5ppms. Its done wonders for Assault Marines viability, and it could help the Firstborn Troops. Through honestly I’d also like to see that done for various Troop Cessors

Edited July 4, 2022 by Schlitzaf
Typo

[Beta galactosidase]

16 hours ago, XeonDragon said:

 I'd love to see:

2. Primaris either go to S5 (but still T4) OR Move 7" instead of 6", to reflect their larger size/strength compared to first-born. 

I think those two changes would better reflect the "fluff" of first-born vs primaris better (as I understand it anyway): they are bigger (so faster at running), a bit stronger, maybe a bit tougher (e.g. THP), but in terms of reaction times etc... about the same. I think that would genuinely shift the balance between first-born and primaris on the table and keep first-born viable whilst giving primaris a combat or mobility boost.

They have this huge stride and athleticism compared to humans and tau who move 6”, and now that there is this even bigger version, of course that should mean m7”.  Of course it should.  They’re also mostly air dropped or podded so often that they don’t normally use transports, so it’s better if they are fast on foot.

Then attacks usually relate to experience, and at least the awakened and unnumbered son generations had problems with inexperience. 
 

m7 makes so much sense for primaris 

 

s5 also makes sense for primaris because the image of a brute squad with rifles is exactly what they are.  And imo this has a lot to do with first born and giving them room, room to be melta caddies.

 

16 hours ago, XeonDragon said:

I'd like both sternguard and company veterans to have a stratagem that allows them to ignore the look out sir rule :) That would make them really good character killers. Either that, or a rule that the sergeants in sterngaurd/company veterans can ignore the look out sire rule whenever they shoot :)

 just any model with higher leadership should have a chance of the shooting player assigning the wound instead of the saving player.  That’s just natural, it’s what high quality troops are for and it means having extra Ld is useful instead of the nothing burger it is now.

A big thing that i want for firstborn is squad veterans. In some codexes there’s been background that any given squad might have one or more white helmet veteran just doing the job of any other brother.  In game a tactical squad should be able to have one model with a combi weapon or storm bolter, and a sergeant profile.  That gets you a little bit of punch that’s still the same as a regular tactical squad just one member has a bolt gun+.  It’s a squad 2ic, or a designated marksman. It’s not new to GW it just hasn’t happened in the rules yet.

don’t agree at all about ws and bs.  Bs buffs aren’t an effective tool for that purpose.  Company vets also don’t make sense to have better ws than first company squads, but maybe you were just setting bait to say sternguard could have ws2+ 

[XeonDragon]

11 hours ago, Kallas said:

Are you suggesting that Primaris lose their bonus attack to get Movement and Strength? Because I would like to see that  Primaris are not supposed to be so far ahead of Firstborn, from all of the stuff that I've read. Yes, they are better, but it's not by Human->Astartes->Custodes->Primarch proportions. It's more like Humans->Catachans; they're prime examples of Astartes, but they're not out of reach of Firstborn.

I think if Primaris and Firstborn merge their statlines (so equal in all regards) except for +1" Move and +1 S, then it could help define them a little better.

 

Glad you liked the idea :D But yes, I think the simplest way would be to:

1. merge the stat lines, with both having 2 base attacks, but have the primaris keyword give +1S and +1 Move and

2. both units have access to THP.

[Blindhamster]

6 hours ago, XeonDragon said:

Glad you liked the idea :D But yes, I think the simplest way would be to:

1. merge the stat lines, with both having 2 base attacks, but have the primaris keyword give +1S and +1 Move and

2. both units have access to THP.

Then primaris lose the representation of the fact they are in fact harder to kill, firstborn got an extra wound, transhuman became primaris only to represent the furnace.

[Xenith]

GW seems to have become obsessed with giving rules to every single thing on the tabletop, and lost it's way of abstraction.

The difference between firstborn and primaris is so, relatively, minute, that there should be zero difference gameplay wise. Like, a catachan is S4, or has been in other representations, is the same as a space marine, however in reality the marine would be much, much more powerful/stronger. Similarly, the marine has their enhanced physiology plus the strength enhancing armour, yet they're only a little stronger than unaugmented humans in game.

The very fact that marines are S4/T4 is an abstraction - and in the fluff they are much stronger. Thus, it makes zero sense to try and use fluff to justify a primaris marine having a different statline to a normal marine - as the difference between a primaris and normal marine probably isn't greater than the difference between a normal marine and human. 

 

Phew. Anyway, seeing as we're wishlisting, just boost all marines to primaris statlines. Marines are famously much faster than humans, so it makes little sense for them to be the same speed, or slower, in game - make normal human move 5" or make marines 7", but this causes other problems. 

Turning Sternguard into pseudo-seekers would be a cool choice - BS2 AP-2 D2 weapon would be ace.  

[Captain Idaho]

Awesome points there. Can't find a flaw in it.

(For the record I was always of the opinion that the ranges for stats should be greater. Then a T6 Firstborn has water between them and a T7 Primaris, but hey ho...)

[Xenith]

Yea, mini rant/vent  I think mainly, GW should rely on the actual statline to differentiate units, not have special, circumstantial, rules - like the ability of a marine to shrug off damage is grounded in the T , W and Sv stats, you don't need to invent another rule to temporarily (effectively) boost that T to match the S of the attacking weapon. If you think marines should be able to shrug off more hits from lascannons, make them T5. However I guess you can't sell datacards that way 

I played a game recently, all terminator army vs a Black Legion force, it did reasonably well - Armour of Contempt has been a big boon. Abstractly, a flat 6 to hit auto wounds in melee would be effective and thematic - imagine marines just punching peoples heads off. Maybe 6 to hit with shooting is auto at -1 AP to reflect superior marksmaship, and let other similar chapter buffs stack?

While Primaris are hyper specialised units, mostly in weird numbers of squads per marine,  old codex marines are more flexible and in traditionally larger units. Maye a HH style point decrease to adding additional models to the unit? It would give a reason to add 5 more dudes to a tactical squad, or moreso a devastator squad. You could then play two versions of marine armies, eldar style, like highly specialised, effective units, or play more numerous flexible units with more staying power per point. 

[UnkyHamHam]

I hope we see rules for bayonets/chain bayonets for Firstborn now that we have a surplus of plastic beakies in the wild now. Just like how Cataphractii and Contemptors hit the mainline codex after their plastic release. 

Could really spice up an old classic like Tacticals (hopefully Sternguard too) by giving them some assault punch to rival their superior primaris kin. 

Edited July 5, 2022 by UnkyHamHam

[Antarius]

I would sort of hope that they drop the distinction between Primaris and Firstborn and let the sole difference be equipment and organisation. It's probably not going to happen, but I think it would make sense and quell (at least somewhat) the fear that Firstborn are being replaced.

Edit: which is not to say that they should be merged (which I think would be a vain hope), but I do think Firstborn should be established as being equal with Primaris (lorewise, the big boon of Primaris is that they provided much faster reinforcements than otherwise possible but I don't like the notion that they are strictly superior to Firstborn).

Edited July 6, 2022 by Antarius

[Blindhamster]

kinda disagree there, apparently making a primaris is only faster if you have one of cawls tanks, which not all chapters did, for most primaris its the same number of years as a fristborn, also for blood angels they already can recruit hyper fast compared to other chapters.

Personally I think the idea that primaris are larger and have extra augmentations/organs /should/ mean they're better in some way. BUT its establishing what that way is. For me I think they should be tougher and stronger, the sinew coils and furnace are explicitely to make them stronger and even more resilient than a firstborn by design. Maybe they should have firstborn and primaris have the same stats except S and T which would be +1. I personally liked the +1 wound over firstborn but felt firstborn and primaris should have had the same number of attacks as they have potentially the same combat experience (outside of the very first batch of primaris used). I personally want to see stratagems get mostly removed, but if not, the same stats but retain transhuman and the strength one as primaris only would also represent stronger and tougher without being more skilled.

the alternative i'd actually prefer would be merging, say everything is "primaris" now in that they've all had the upgrades, but they've also worked out how to make use of older tech, then merge units like intercessors and tactical squads into one thing, potentially similar for a bunch of other units. But it wont ever happen. (note that with the above, you could remove the primaris keyword entirely then as its all the same thing, and models of either type represent the same thing and you could merge redundant units together.

[Medjugorje]

imo its good as it is represented. At least close to what I think it would be perfect. Just 1 attack on Firstborn is not good - they need one more I think. But Primaris have access to transhuman and autowounding on 6s per strat. So its fine.

[UnkyHamHam]

I think there are other ways to represent Primaris physical superiority too, if we think outside the box a little. 

Things like, all primaris ignoring wounds on a 6 (Feel No Pain). And/or getting +1 Str on charge/charged (Furious Charge). Or even always fight first in combat. 

You could give them a rule where they always wound toughnesses equal to their strength on 1 better. So they have a 3+ "tiebreaker" roll to wound when fighting other marine equivalents.

Or how about they always get a +1 to advance and charging? 

So, back to Firstborn. If you just merged units and stats and units, and sprinkle bonuses Ike these in for units with Primaris keyword.

Just some shower thoughts. 

[XeonDragon]

On 7/5/2022 at 2:55 AM, Captain Idaho said:

Oh blimey, this isn't just Firstborn but affects our characters and units more... Plasma! Stop having it blow up and kill whole model for goodness sake. Whole characters? A Sergeant is bad enough.

It would help our combi Sergeants too.

^ this! Just make natural 1s do a mortal wounds. That's it. Problem solved. Personally, I'd also like to see all plasma weapons go up 1 damage, to better balance them against melta. So plasma-guns, assault plasma etc. D2, D3 on overcharge, heavy D3, D4 on overcharge etc. 

[Jolemai]

Scouts with Objective Secured again

[Mike8404]

I would like to see the completion of the Primaris range (primarily Primaris'd Vindicators, Hunters, Stalkers, ect.  I love the new floaty Impulsors/Gladiators/Repulsors.  Hate the infantry).

That said, I'd like to see Sternguard get a boost too.  They're one of my favorite units in the game, but they just don't cut it on their own anymore.  Give them S5 D2 Bolters or something so they can cut into the power creep more efficiently.

I'd also like to see First Born be able to ride in Primaris transports, and vice versa.  Its a stupid rule that should be retired.

So should Martial Legacy.  That needs to be removed for First Born too

[Kallas]

14 minutes ago, Mike8404 said:

I'd also like to see First Born be able to ride in Primaris transports, and vice versa.  Its a stupid rule that should be retired.

This restriction is so stupid and arbitrary. They also need to readdress some of the transport capacities, for example: Abaddon (who for some reason is Infantry and not Monster) can ride in a Land Raider, taking up two slots. Guilliman is a Monster, so cannot ride in one, and Centurions somehow take up three slots - are Centurion models a lot bigger than Abaddon in person, or something? Because that new model seems pretty chunky and much larger than a Centurion!

Edited July 11, 2022 by Kallas

[Captain Idaho]

Possible Guilliman could find his way into the Codex as an Agent of the Imperium too, which would probably result in most Chapter builds ignoring him then Blood Angels creating a Mephiston, Sanguinor, Guilliman triple threat.

Not sure I want to see that but there is precedent with Abaddon...

[Subtleknife]

I love primaris but until GW expand S/T over a greater range I think primaris and normal marines should just get the same statline. Primaris should not go to S5 imo as this then impinges on Custodes. Personally I think GW needs to expand S/T so baseline human is 3-4, Marine 5-6, Custodes 7-8 and Primarch 9-10. 

I would like to see a rebalanced of transports. Currently I think they are overcosted. 

I would like to see terminators made more elite too.

[Blindhamster]

whilst this is a firstborn thread, the trouble i have with primaris and firstborn getting the same baseline stats, is that suddenly theres almost no reason to use the primaris units as the firstborn ones will be strictly better, even now its questionable a lot of the time.

If they go that route, i think they need to go all the way and just merge the units, but that wont happen either. Or primaris marines would need to be cheaper than firstborn to make them worth considering.

For me, I actually like them being differentiated, and based on whats described of them, still think the extra wound was actually most logical. It was the perfect representation of the furnace. But in a game where everything else has gone up in wounds now too, marines clearly also needed to be 2 wounds, so we got that and transhuman became primaris only. (maybe a native 6+ fnp on primaris, with stuff like iron hands getting a better version would be a way to go).

Anyway, personally I'd like to see them work out a way to either make the two types notably different that isn't just tied to always using strats. Or I'd like to see them fully merge the two have the options of both combined somehow, which just doesn't feel possible.

Transports in general need a total overhaul, for sure.

[phandaal]

5 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

But in a game where everything else has gone up in wounds now too, marines clearly also needed to be 2 wounds, so we got that and transhuman became primaris only. (maybe a native 6+ fnp on primaris, with stuff like iron hands getting a better version would be a way to go).

The main problem is incoming lethality, which can be mitigated by Transhuman. Non-Primaris need something like that, barring a complete removal of the Primaris keyword (or giving it to everyone).

[Blindhamster]

3 hours ago, phandaal said:

The main problem is incoming lethality, which can be mitigated by Transhuman. Non-Primaris need something like that, barring a complete removal of the Primaris keyword (or giving it to everyone).

Would you prefer firstborn went back to 1 wound and kept transhuman? Or if firstborn got transhuman back and primaris another wound? Or gained native fnp or even a wbb roll like necrons to represent the furnace? Honestly it always felt like the big thing with primaris that should be displayed at the tabletop level compared to other marines. The furnace is meant to be such a big deal so I just don’t want to see them make the two types identical except where they essentially also merge units like intercessors and tactical squads and low-key say all marines are primaris and as such all marines are “just” marines again (who magically worked out how to retro fit all the armour mks and gear as arguably always should have been the case)

[Captain Idaho]

I'm up for dropping Transhuman Physiology entirely as I hate the mechanic for anyone.

What's more, it can't be given to Firstborn with fairly granting it to Chaos Marines, who have much scarier infantry to be giving that buff.

Cheaper transports works well. 40pts Rhinos when bought with a Tactical Squad (as an upgrade rather than dedicated Transport) would make Tacticals rather interesting. Gets the army where it needs to go cheaply, somewhat circumnavigating fragility in the face of 40K lethality. 

[phandaal]

I think the narrative difference that GW is trying to enforce through their rules is silly, basically. No one was asking for "Even More Transhuman" Space Marines, and we see the kind of clunkiness that results from trying to have their cake and eat it too.

Space Marines should just be Space Marines, at least from a rules standpoint. Then we can start reducing some of the bloat and let the new models be the range refresh they always should have been.